Foiled burglary attempt  

Had the burglar entered my apartment, he'd be dead by now as I have the right to defend myself.

Mebbe so, Kokopuffs. And mebbe not, as both the precise circumstances and your local regs, determine that.

Most people, when self- or home-defense comes up, think "handgun." But a handgun is, in most cases, the worst choice for home defense.

The problem is, most people who buy a handgun do not take the time to become proficient with it. The think a gun, alone, is a deterrent. Not so. If you have not trained yourself to the point where it's use is automatic, then you may as well not have one.

More to the point, in a high-stress situation, the first thing you lose is your small motor control. The one thing you don't need to be doing is fumbling around with a safety. So on that level, a wheel gun actually makes more sense than an auto.

Finally, most people aren't looking to shoot anyone. If there's an intruder in the house they just want 'em gone. Once you start waving a large-bore handgun around you mostly don't have a choice. Most bottom feeders are well aware that even though you have a gun, you're probably not prepared---mentally or physically---to shoot. So the pistol, alone, does not serve as a deterrent.

For home defense, the best choice is a cheap pump shotgun (get one at the pawn shop, rather than the gun store). Cut the barrel down even with the magazine tube. Then put it under the bed in a combat-safe position.

The security system you've just created is, btw, illegal. So don't go using that shotgun to hunt quail.

Come circumstances like yours, you grab the piece and jack the round home. I guarantee even if it's the middle of the night, and a bottom feeder is where he doesn't belong, and even if he's never been near a shotgun before in his life, he will know what that sound is. And he's gone! And if not, a shotgun is such an intimidating weapon that the choice of shooting or not is yours to make.

Why is it so intimidating? Because, in a low-life's mind, there is a particular kind of reasoning. He knows, with a handgun, that you are not likely to squeeze the trigger, and that if you do, you'll more than likely miss. But like most people, he also believes, erroneously, that you can't miss with a shotgun at those ranges. So whatever he's doing, he'll stop and say sir.

Cautionary Warning! Anyone who chooses a firearm for self- or home-defense had better familiarize themselves with the legal concept called "in gravest extreme." That's what determines when lethal force is, or is not, justified. And do not depend on the cops or local police chief to fill you in on this. Most of them do not understand it, and will give you bad advice. Find somebody who truly understands it---a criminal lawyer, or home-defense consultant.

While I would use the word "many" where you use the word "most", I basically agree.
Shotgun is the best idea for home defense.
Requires less accuracy, less likely to be deadly after missing and going through a wall, etc.
I have a 12 guage pump in the bedroom as well as a 9mm with 17 rounds ready to go.
A .snubby .38 is in the office, and a compact .45 goes with me most places.
I believe everyone should become proficient with whatever their choice of weapon, and be comfortable with it.

koko - glad you are ok

DC

Yeah, and my .38 also has a shrouded hammer, so it won't snag on the draw.
It's a cute little thing.
Oh, and it has laser grips. :thumb:

My Glock 36 (the compact .45) also has laser sights, different than the grips though.
Gots to love your toys.

I tried to walk away and say nothing....Look how succesful that was

I'm glad you're ok KoKo. It must have been scary for you. Sounds like you would have dealt with the intruder tho, as you sound as though you're comfortable with your guns.

Whats worrying me is that it seems everyone has them and that there is so much potential for accidents to happen where innocent people get hurt or killed.

Cautionary Warning! Anyone who chooses a firearm for self- or home-defense had better familiarize themselves with the legal concept called "in gravest extreme." That's what determines when lethal force is, or is not, justified. And do not depend on the cops or local police chief to fill you in on this. Most of them do not understand it, and will give you bad advice. Find somebody who truly understands it---a criminal lawyer, or home-defense consultant.

Rubbish story to highlight KYH's Cautionary warning:-

There was an old boy in England, who after many burglaries on his property in the countryside, decided to buy a shotgun. Next time the thieves broke in, he let them have it. He killed a man and injured the accomplice.

The old man went to jail. And whilst serving his time he was duly sued by the injured guy for loss of earnings.
Police declared he was a career burglar!!!

Folk in the Uk obviously have the same problems, but in general, most of us dont keep guns in the house

>I've put 30,000 rounds thru my 45, cast my own bullets and reload my own ammunition. Furthermore, I am POST certified and currently work in law enforcement and I KNOW the local laws. <

Surely you're not suggesting that this makes you at all typical---even for law enforcement personnel, let alone just plain folks.

And that's the main point. Most---or, if Jim prefers, many---people are totally unrealistic about what's entailed in self-defense. How many folks, for instance, who earn their CCPs, ever visit a range after qualifying? There's a mental process they go through that says, "hey, I'm carrying a big gun, so I'm safe." Until they have to use it.

Cops can be almost as bad. New York used to have four practice ranges. All you had to do was show up, and the department even gave you the ammo. They had to close three of them for lack of use. The attitude was, "when they pay me for my time, I'll go practice."

And THAT'S why decisions go in favor of the law enforcement official. You weren't there; I was. Sorry, but there is no way you can compare a firefight involving law enforcement people and a shooting involving a private citizen. Given the state of today's courts, you will always have the benefit of the doubt (as you should!), but the opposit is not true for the citizen.

As to cops being sources of the right info, again, you are less than typical. Just a couple of weeks ago I heard of a case where the local police chief told somebody, "if you shoot somebody outside the house, first tear your wife's blouse, drag the body into the house, and then call the police."

Yeah, right! Try something like that and you are definately going away.

as well as a 9mm .....

My son used to say, "9 mils are OK for Europeans. But for dangerous folks, you need a .45." :look:

Don't know as I fully subscribe to that view. But I'm not big on 9mms. Seen too many of them bounce off plate glass windows. It pleases me no end that many departments are moving away from them and back to larger bores.

I really like snubbies since there's no worry when it comes to firing the next round. No BS like the stuff when it comes to auto-loaders.

That's basically my attitude about wheel guns overall. Not much to go wrong with them. The simple drill is point & squeeze. Then do it again if necessary.

Far as I'm concerned, the only benefit to auto-loaders is that they carry bigger magazines. But the question is, do you really need that many? In a firefight, maybe. But in combatting an intruder? I don't think so. When there's a bottom feeder in the living room, if 5 or 6 rounds won't do it, 14 ain't gonna do the job neither.

One nice thing about snubbies, especially the larger bores like my .44 Special, is that if you're on the wrong side of them you can see the nose of the chambered round. Intimidating as all get out.

Speaking of intimidating. Friend Wife's favorite home-defense piece is a Model 25 with a six inch barrel. She's a snip of a girl, standing 5'1". Thing looks like a cannon in her hands. And, if need be, that .45 Colt punches a very big hole.

Nothing more intimidating than the sound of a pump shotgun ratcheting in a silent house.
Not sure I'm going to have to put many rounds through plate glass, but I guess someone could come in with a pane as a shield.;)
My wife's uncle used to tell her to keep only 3 rounds in her .357, "if you need more than that, you're screwed anyway".
The most ridiculous thing I've heard, as is "if 5 or 6 rounds won't do it, 14 ain't gonna do the job neither".
Many home invasions involve multiple perpetrators.
Also, many people who are fully trained can still fire off an errant shot or two.....I'd hate to die for lack of firepower.
And yes, the word "most" has a completely different meaning than "many".
I do believe that many people exhibit the behavior you describe.
I'd have to see some hard facts to believe that "most" do.
But I'm with you, bigger is better, as far as calibre goes.
My fave is definitely the .45 :thumb:

I feel sick







Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas

Jim, I'd say any differences we have are merely personal preferences.

What you have to understand, though, is that I deal (or used to, when I was consulting on this stuff) with people who have little or no familiarity with firearms but who suddenly decide "I need a gun in the house for protection." Nowdays we can extend that the myriads who pursue CCPs.

In the U.S. there are 200 billion of them, and only a handful of the rest of us. So, yes, the word "most" does apply.

When you're working with people like that there are questions that must be answered, and criteria to consider, that you wouldn't even think of when a gun-nut is involved----although, truth to tell, many gun nuts are nowhere near as good as they think they are.

The hardest lesson to teach is that having a gun in your hand, of itself, is not necessarily a deterrent. That, indeed, it often creates an erroneous sense of self-confidence that can lead you to trouble.

If anyone believes that merely carrying a gun is protection, ask kokopuffs why we want the biggest, toughest folks we have assigned as street cops. And why any cop with the brains God gave a turnip, going into a bar fight, wants a shotgun in his hands.

Back in the late 19th century they used to say, "God made men but Colonel Colt made them equal." It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. But, unfortunately, far too many people believe it.

To be an effective means of self-protection, you have to be both physically able to shoot, under high-stress conditions, and be mentally prepared to do so. For most (many, if you prefer) people, neither of those conditions prevails, let alone both of them.

The typical (non gun nut) home owner who buys a handgun does not take the time to become proficient with it. It takes a lot of hours at the range, and a lot of bullets down the tube, to do that, and they are unwilling to devote the time and energy.

And I stand by what I said. Unlike in my house, where intruders found there at night will be found there in the morning, most people do not want to shoot anyone. They just want them gone. And the sound of a 12 gauge shell being jacked home is often all it takes to accomplish that.

In the relatively rare case where both conditions can be met, a handgun can make sense. That's when you start talking about the relative values of type (wheel gun or auto) and caliber.

As to amount of firepower, we can, if you like, discuss the differences between home invasions by rabid gangs and other types of intruders. Being as most of the time you'd be talking about only one or two low lifes, and given their proclivities to flee at the slightest sign of resistence, then I stand by what I said---if one cylinder from a wheel gun won't do it, neither will a full clip from an auto.

Agreed. :thumb:

Over the summer my neighbor 2 doors down heard somebody messing with the 2nd floor window outside his office in the middle of the night. He is an ex Green Beret and has what I would consider a few too many weapons in his house, but he is trained in the use of all of them as are his wife. Anyway it was about 3 AM on a weeknight and all of a sudden we hear sirens and there are police cars, an ambulance and a fire truck parked outside the house so of course the wife and I go outside to find the culprit being hauled away on a stretcher and put in the ambulance handcuffed. My neighbor grabbed his largest handgun, went to the window the guy was trying to get in and pulled the shade to only SHOW him the gun. The guy fell to the concrete from the second floor, broke his hip, tailbone and his femur. He was later charged and found guilty of attempted robbery on that house and he had actually robbed 2 other houses earlier in the day on our street that they busted him for. Never a shot fired, just scared the poop out of him with the sight of a large gun pointed at him.

maryfranan

Glad to hear that owning a handgun does not provide protection against home invasion!
We don't have guns. Think others should not either. UK has sensible gun laws and much much lower homicide and suicide rates.

Believe the best thing in a home invasion is to make any kind of noise. And if you are in the same room as the perp, show him the door and get out of his way!

Glad to hear that owning a handgun does not provide protection against home invasion!

I'm not going to get into a discussion of one system versus another---except to point out that the incidence of violent crimes and the use of firearms in their commission is significantly on the rise in the UK.

Don't take my word for it. Check the statistics.

That aside, nobody here said that owning a handgun does not provide protection against home invasion. I suggest you reread the posts, and try to understand what they say, rather than interpreting them through the filter of your own bias.

My first line of defense would be to dial 911, report a crime in progress and remember to say that there's a gun. (There would be a gun...mine...safely locked up, but the police don't need to know that). Even though we're way out in the boonies, response times are very fast.

We have a 357 magnum loaded with snakeshot. Hubbydearest tells me if I have to face down an intruder, I should point it toward a vital area and say "This probably won't kill you, but you will wish you were dead". :laser:I don't like guns, so it's nice that we live in a rural area where the biggest crime is exceeding the 25mph speed law through town.

Yeah. I am not above lying about having a gun. Especially if it will get the police quickly on the scene. I just think having one is a bad idea. I have heard your own gun can be used against you. I know the one time we were burgled (in broad daylight with no one home) the perp went right for the nightstand looking for our (fortuantely) non existent gun.

Calling 911 is a good idea. The phone should be right near your bed. Our local police advise calling and keeping a quiet watch on the situation if at all possible. Facing down an intruder is a bad idea. Best to point to the door and get out of their way. That is what I have been told. I once acted out an intruder scene with my ten year old kids. I was the householder, they were the burglars. When I confronted the 'intruders' they immediately became frightened, hostile, and instinctively pulled out their 'guns' on me. When I replayed the same scene with me quickly getting out of their way they made tracks and left. This action was not planned or rehearsed -- it was their natural instincts and the incident reinforced what I had been taught.

I think the writers who pointed out that using a gun effectively in a high stress situation calls for some serious training and that such action may have serious legal repercussions sound like they know what they are talking about Your hubby dearest played with guns as a kid and watched a lot of TV. What professional training has he had? I encourage my husband not to go investigating suspicious sounds!

Fortunately we also live in a low crime area.

Obviously a bunch of crazed gun-nuts here...:peace:

When we travelled around the country in the RV, the nice little S&W .357 was in the drawer next to the bed. (Most RV'rs pack a litlle something just for luck) and we only got it out to be within arm's length twice... and nothing happened.

It's now stowed in a closet near our bed at the condo, but very accessible - fully loaded and ready to roll. Hollow points so as to produce maximum discouragement at a range of eight or ten feet (it's not a very big condo), and less likely to travel through walls and disturb the neighbors in case I miss. If I miss, I'll keep trying. :rolleyes:

Mike :laser:

Oh yeah? One of my co workers had a kid who was seriously injured at a friend's house. Friend's parents kept a fully loaded gun ready to roll.

Hope yours is never used on family or friends or by a perp who got to it first.

I think it is time to drop this subject before it gets out of hand. The gun issue is a highly polarizing debate that really doesn't belong here on Chef Talk. Best to just let it go before someone gets PO'ed. I know this is the OT forum, but let's try and stay away from these highly divisive subjects. They do nothing but cause problems among members.

Maybe an admin could put a lock on this one?

As always it only takes one person to ruin an adult conversation

And that's why we try to stay away from a lot of political and religious threads, unless it specifically has to do with food. The conversation can start out harmless enough, but these polarizing subjects have a way of going south very quickly.

I hesitate to lock the thread. It just seems so Orwellian. I'd rather see it just fade away, though I won't hesitate to lock it if it turns nasty.

Pete-

I don't think I've seen anything even remotely nasty here, and it's given me an interesting insight about many other members.

Not just a bunch of pansy foodies, are we! :roll:

Fun discussion, and nicer than politics.

Mike

Well, heavily armed pansy foodies, maybe... :peace: