Your work chefs knife, a discussion.

Loving cooking the tactile sensations of cooking, and respecting the role of the knife in providing them, it's a question to which I've given much thought over the years.

Sharpness: The "absolute" sharpness of the knife at any given moment; it's ability to take a truly sharp edge; the lack of difficulty required to put that edge one; and the knife's ability to hold the edge over time with only simple maintenance between full sharpenings.

Geometry and Ergonomics: Is the handle comfortable? Is the blade long enough? Light enough? Too much belly? Not enough? Thin enough to satisfy the sharpness criteria?

Robustness: Can it handle the jobs I see frequently? A cook who splits rib tips and chops gourds needs a stiffer and tougher (in the metallurgical sense) than one doing fish and mirepoix.

If I were going back on the line tomorrow, there are three knives I'd consider first: 1) An Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, white steel (Shirogami 2); 270mm wa-gyuto if I could get away with something that thin; 2a and 2b) the Masamoto KS 270mm wa-gyuto, or Masamoto HC 270mm yo-gyuto if I couldn't; and just maybe... 3) After all the decades I still like my 10" K-Sabatier au carbone quite a bit.

The Sabatier doesn't get as sharp as either Japanese knife, but sharpens far more easily; wears at a geological rate; world's best geometry; needs frequent steeling, but almost never needs more; and is hard to hurt by merely abusing the $#*! out of it. A few other knives have tempted me enough to buy, but I keep coming back to the Sabs.

If you've never used a super-thin knife made from a quality alloy like a Tadatsuna wa-gyuto, you have no idea of how sharp a knife can be and don't know what you're missing.

The Masamoto KS wa-gyuto and Masamoto HC western style gyuto split the differences very nicely -- and with Masamoto geometry. The most outstanding thing about either Masamoto (and a few other lines as well), is not the things they do super well (which are manifold), but that they do everything very well and nothing poorly.

Finally, don't underestimate the importance of a good sharpening kit and the skills to use it; nor the importance of good knife skills either. Those three things, the knife, the way it's sharpened, and the skill with which it's used form a picture that would be incoherent with any one of them were missing.

BDL

Sharp, clean, comfortable, and.... that's it.

Anything over $100 a knife and I get nervous. Theft/ loss is common and the fallout from something like that can effect a kitchen for days, if not weeks.

If the knife is over $100, that usually means it's too expensive to get sharpened by a "regular" sharpener. THAT means that either A) the guy knows how to properly sharpen, which is quite rare, maybe about 25% of most cooks can competantly sharpen, or B) that the guy messes up "sharpening" his knife and shows up for work with a cheap (dull) "backup" knife.

When you start to really navel gaze, you'll come to udnerstand that a knife is just a hunk of steel with a sharp edge, the magic is in the user's hands....

You're luckier than me. In my experience almost no cooks can competently sharpen. In 20 years in the kitchen I can count 'em all on one hand.

What I look for in a duty knife:

1) It must be able to take a screaming edge. No point in talking about how long it stays sharp if it doesn't get sharp to start with.

2) Edge retention. Once sharpened it should hold an edge well; not for months- that's not realistic in a knife that gets heavy use- but certainly for a good length of time.

3) Ergonomics. It has to have good balance and geometry.

4) Geometry. To expand on the above, it has to be thin behind the edge yet have enough metal behind it to be sturdy. A delicate balance to be sure.

5) Toughness. It should be fairly durable. When properly sharpened it shouldn't be overly prone to chipping or rolling of the edge.

6) Attractive. Assuming you work with a trustworthy bunch, it never hurts if it inspires a little envy.;)

My current favorite gyuto is an Akifusa 240mm. It's very thin, very light and very sharp. It seems to hold an edge forever, too. And it passes the 'envy test.'

Pumping out volume I am familiar with. Most chefs and cooks I worked with in the hotel casino biz used the Forschner fibrox and Rosewood stamped blades.
Why? Easy to sharpen and maintain as well as the local supply house gave a discount for them to casino employees. Once a year there was even a 1/2 off sale so why not.
Also when a knife roll gets pinched by a friendly co-worker it just does not hurt as bad. Greatest knife NO. Good yes and a work horse. I love my old Hi Carbon knives and also rotate them frequently but I watch them a little closer also:thumb:

All our house knives are Forschner Fibrox. They're solid knives for the price but I'm not impressed by their edge retention. Then again, they're definitely not being babied, either.

Edge retention is an issue:look: Most knives in your operation sound like they are used hard. For a pro fast volume I would go cheap { Like mine ] :smoking:

Learn how to maintain the edge! Be it machine or store bought Pull through
{Yikes}.BTW, Impressions are that. Reality just slides through :lol:

I love it! Just a hunk of steel. So true..................

At the moment that falls under the heading of "not my problem.":lol: A couple years ago I took a step back from being a full time chef in order to become a full time student. Now I work the line to pay the bills. I do a lot of sharpening for coworkers and my boss but I'm not really ready to take on the task of maintaining the house knives, although I've considered it. I have a belt grinder and a lot of belts that are nice for knives, just not a good place to leave it set up just now. And there's the time issue.

A working kitchen is a tough environment for house knives. For every person with good habits (wash them, use a cutting board, use them for cutting food as opposed to opening cans, etc) there's at least on clueless guy that tries to send 'em back to the dish room. :laser:

I once had a dishwasher trained to bring all of the knives up and hand them to the Chef or myself(I was Sous at the time). We knew who had what in their personal kits and the house knives got hand washed and hung for the night. It kept some idiot from sending a good knife through the washer and messing up someone else's edges.

Or worse yet, it keeps some poor bastard in the dish pit from losing a finger. Nothing is more inconsiderate, reckless and just plain dangerous than throwing a sharp knife in a bus tub full of silver, and yes I have seen it done!:mad: How's that for a surprise, reaching into a your water and hitting a razor sharp chef's knife?

I've never run into that, but it would be horrible.

Ouch :mad: Yes you have a reason to be upset! I try to give all my new cooks a
demo on how to use and treat a knife and I pay extensive attention to the part about you clean and maintain the knife you use as well as no dropping in the pot and pan sink and walking off! The results of course are human and there will still be those who lazily or perhaps from prior training want to send the knives to the dishwasher. In the casinos in Reno where I worked they had a good solution as they did not provide tools such as knives, whips, spatulas, tongs, ect. If you were hired you provided your own tools and upkeep! Just like a mechanics tools are normally not shop bought. I even had cooks who used there own egg and omelet pans ( these were company bought ) but would stash them away so no one could mess them up and wash them:;) Professionalism is the key to success but the larger and busier the operation the harder it is to maintain this level especially at the pay rate we offer our help. Maybe thats why I just maintain my cheap knives and am saving the more expensive for a good home kitchen when I get one (yes even the wife and brats are into knife abuse), although my old hi carbons are far from cheap knives in my world:thumb:

I have a grunt knife in the roll as well. I don't use it unless my primary knife has a major malfunction or walks away. To date, I have had the malfunction happen but no theft (thank God).

 

My cool and nifty 240mm UX-10 is used for prep, and depending on where I am at service, and in what kitchen.

 

If I'm crammed into a line that only has a deli-prep-size work area, I'll use a shorter knife. I haven't found the perfect "Petty" or utility knife yet - but any slicer-looking knife that's 6-8" works fine.

 

The uber-complete knife roll is usually left in the car. I stick everything I use in my bain, and if I need a baller or a slicer or whatever, then I'll just bring the whole case in at that point.

 

"Backup Knife" (or the one in my roll at the moment I guess) is a Wusthof Cordon Bleu 8" Chef. It's thin, fast and sharp. I have had to use it a few times - and have let another cook borrow it once.

 

For my own personal preference, and the kind of cooking I do - the UX-10 at about 9 1/2" just worked well. It isn't the greatest knife in the world and not the worse either. It just works for me.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, Trooper, but why do you say this?  Is there some knife you see as being your ideal ... though possibly too valuable to take into a busy kitchen?  Or is it just a recognition that an expensive specialist knife is better at its task than a general-purpose gyuto?

 

The reason I ask is that the Misono UX10 seems to be a strong candidate for being the best mass-produced stainless yo-gyuto in the world

 

(along with Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, Hattori FH, and probably others).

 

Later,

 

John
 

I have to think now, to answer your question, Dr. Owl. . .
 

 

I concur with the fact: A knife designed for a specific task is always better than any knife that is not - no matter the cost.

 

The first time I walked into a commercial kitchen I had my full compliment of tools, cutlery, everything.

     (And yes, I laugh when I see a stage or new cook do the same thing now.)

 

I made some minor adjustments to my UX-10 for practical reasons:

   - It sports a 15/15 bi-lateral edge

   - I sanded/polished the spine ahead of the bolster somewhat so it is more comfortable.

 

The perfect knife (for me) would look very much like a UX-10 but:

1. My above mods would come stock.

2. The rear angle from bolster to heel would be another couple degrees forward - so the heel would land maybe 3mm ahead of where it lands as-is.

   - In the image I have the tip of my Sharpie pointing at where it should start, and the black line at where the heel should land.

3. The belly would be just slightly flatter before the radius comes off the board - Give me another couple centimeters of full contact on the board.

4. It would be more like a full 10" instead of 9.5", but no longer than 10.25"

5. The knife as a whole would be forged with the bolster, or at least make the bolster the same material as the blade.

6. The whole of the knife would be better finished - like the grinds you see at the handle radius (I'll post a pic)

7. The handle is perfect in every way for me - length, geometry, diameter, everything - but I would make the pommel (back) of the handle solid - much like the bolster.

    - The solid pommel (just a couple centimeters at the rear of the handle) would help with some of the beating the wood handle takes through normal use.

 

If I found a knife that did all that, and had the same thickness and flex as the UX-10 - I would buy one and probably two.

 

And I would never deny a working knife the right to be dropped, chipped abused and banged around in a commercial kitchen.

No matter how much a knife costs, if you can't use it to earn money, it is worthless.

 

Goodness, Troop!  You have thought about your ideal knife in detail.  Thank you.

 

And thank you for the photographs: they make your dreams very clear.

 

A number of thoughts ran through my mind as a read your post.

 

1. I shouldnt be surprised that a professional has a much clearer picture of his or her ideal knife than an amateur like me.
2. In my limited experience, and substantial reading, I've never seen anything exactly like your ideal.  I suspect it would have to be custom made.
3. The Workshop Style of many of the smaller Japanese smiths means that they might not understand some of your wishes.  The quality of the blade is everything: the fit of the handle is much less important, and the finish of the blade hardly matters at all.  Of course the customer will have his or her views on the initial profile and on a rounded spine, but he or she (or the shop) will implement those when preparing the knife for use.  (I've even had a couple of Global knives arrive unsharpened.)  On the plus side this does mean that Workshop Style knives are very good value for money compared with western-made Wedding Present knives.
4. Some of your wishes would be met by French-made knives.  Looking at an elderly carbon Sabatier chef's knife, the edge remains straight for about 70% of its length.  And of course a length of 25cm would be no problem.  But it would be ruined for you by the heavy vertical finger-guard at the heel of the knife.
5. You could always, I suppose, start with a 27cm UX10, reprofile the blade, round the spine, grind a forward angle on the heel ... and then grind the spine down in a gentle curve to meet the edge 26cm along.  But that's easy for me to say: I wouldn't have to spend two day's sweating over a coarse whetstone!

 

Later,

 

John

1. I think people who use knives every day fall into one of three buckets:

    a. They don't care and are more likely to use the house knives if there are any, or whatever they got in culinary or along the way is just fine.

    b. They will use any knife, but expect it to be sharp. They will use their own knife - but may or may not sharpen it themselves.

    c. The have a clear picture of that they want, and care about and for their cutlery, but will use any knife on hand if that's all they have. (I'm in this bucket)

    d. They spend more time and money buying and sharpening their knife than they actually spend cooking with it or investing in other key items the job demands quality from.

 

On 1.d - a perfect example is a cook that wears ratty whites, ratty shoes and always needs a peeler, a microplane, a silicon spatula, whatever - But they have a $400 knife on their board.

 

2. Maybe Minsono or JCK will read this post and make a Chef trooper, special edition knife? That would be awesome! :D

 

3. I think the workmanship of any effort would consider those other elements. I'd bed the steel is made in one factory and the fitting is done in another in most cases.

    The Shun Elite is a perfect example of quality steel and no thought in design. The handle on those knives may work for Hulk Hogan, but not most cooks I know.

 

4. That is exactly why a lot of experienced cooks like their old K-Sabs - The geometry. If they could take a 10" K-Sab profile and use a Minsono blade, that would be a very cool knife.

 

5. Wouldn't it be cool if you had to build your own knife as a requirement to be called a cook? Like your unique Jedi weapon, LoL. I built my own M1911's - same concept.
 

The UX-10 is a very nice knife; although now that there are a lot more really good Japanese made knives available, it can't be considered the world-beater it once was -- either in terms of bang for the bu.  I like nearly everything about it, but feel it's a bit on the narrow side -- not only something of a knuckle buster but skimpy on the steel if you're a frequent sharpener.

 

If you're actually looking for something which may be a better fit:

 

A Masamoto VG might be just right for you - it has a profile very Sabatier-like profile and the quality of the alloy is similar to Misono.  You're not going to beat the UX-10 handle with any Japanese manu, factured knife except for a MAC Pro or Ultimate. The Masamoto handle has very good ergonomics -- just maybe a quarter step behind the Misono and MAC.  Blade geometry is unbeatable though. 

 

If you want something stiffer than the UX-10, look at the MAC.  I prefer the MAC's geometry to the Misono's but like the Masamoto more than either.

 

Those three are all excellent knives -- but to some extent they are also knives whose time has past.  That is, they're all made (whether forged or blocked) from alloys which are no longer flavor of the month.  The UX-10 in particular is widely acknowledged to be somewhat difficult to sharpen.  I've sharpened several and while the Swedish sourced alloy is "tough,"   that's not anything I've noticed.  Maybe it depends on your kit or your standards or something else.  Who knows? 

 

Sorry to hear that your UX-10 has F&F issues.  Misono is generally good about that, especially with the top of the line UX-10.  They're usually head and shoulders above run of the mill of the Japanese made kitchen knives. 

 

If you can live with the price tag, you might want to take a look at the Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (western) Inox.  Here's a link.  They run thinner than the UX-10 with a slightly wider blade and edge geometry a little more like what you're describing than the Misono gives you.  The Tad is as good as a wa-handled, stainless knife gets. 

 

The Kikuichi TKC  is also very nice, but semi-stainless and cheaper than the Tad. 

 

As a working pro, you really shouldn't have any trouble adapting to a 27cm knife.  The difference between 24cm and 27cm feels far less significant than the differences between 21cm anbd 24cm, and between 27cm and 30cm.  Just trust me.

 

Have you considered a Japanese handled knife?  There are a lot more options.

 

As always though, everything depends on sharpening.  If you're serious about something different -- that's probably the best place to start.

 

BDL 

Between BDL and Dr. Owl, I should just send each of them 500 bucks and see what they come up with -

 

You both each know a lot more about the brands, options, technical attributes and use cases for what I'm looking for than I do.

 

I'm looking at both of your lists of suggestions - among (Quote copy: Ikkanshi Tadatsuna, Hattori FH /  Masamoto VG Masamoto VGMasamoto VG Masamoto VG ; MAC Pro or Ultimate ; Ikkanshi Tadatsuna (western) Inox ;  Kikuichi TKC)

 

I like the standard Western handle on a full-size knife. Not to say I would pass-over something with a perfect working design if it didn't have one - I just don't know how I would feel about splitting an acorn squash with a slippery hand and a smooth, round-handle knife. I know I could/would do it safely, but probably a half-second slower.

 

The the 9 1/2" minimum to 10 1/4" maximum length range isn't for any other reason than that's just the sweet spot for a working knife. I have some 12" and 14" scimitar and butcher knives if I ever feel the need to hack a side of beef or go on a killing spree. I'd make a terrible killer however, because I'd be worried about nicking my blade on a rib cage or something, lol....

 

Not really looking to replace my UX10 at the moment, but anything that is better (in a working, functional, practical sense) than what you have is always worth considering.

 

I'll let you guys know if I come up with anything. Thanks for the guidance!

That's very gracious of you, Troop -- thank you -- but I must deny being an expert.  I'm a retired mathematician, and a wine buff, who came here to how to sharpen better.  It's the Pussycat who is the cook in our household ... the knives are only mine when they need sharpening.

 

BDL -- who IS an expert -- implies, very gently, that my assessments are somewhat out of date.  Fair enough.  It would be interesting to know what are the current candidates for "the best mass-produced stainless yo-gyuto" ... but that would be the subject for another thread.

 

John

Based on the few professional Western kitchens I have observed, and on the notion that in some hypothetical alternate universe I would ever be mad enough to be working a prep line in one of them, I would go with the Masamoto KS-27. In those kitchens, at least, theft is not a significant issue, you're responsible for your own tools in your own way so long as it's up to chef's standards, and nobody gives a d**m what you use if you get great results. I'd sharpen it 50/50 or close, steel it if necessary, and I am confident that it would demonstrate everything I love it for now.

 

EEEVIL sharpness, lack of flash, perfect shape and balance, weird sharpness retention, odd sense of "readiness."

 

I don't know quite how to explain what I mean, but I'll try.

 

KC Ma, who shows up around here sometimes and is a pal of BDL's (and mine, electronically), and is into really bonkers sharpening things, swears that he's never seen a gyuto that gets as sharp as this thing. My experience is that nothing is so easy to make frighteningly sharp as this. So that's one down.

 

The thing automatically and instantly patina's down to a dull grey blah, which I like. It's sort of like, "hey, screw this whole 'art knife collector's item thing, can we get to work please?'" I like that kind of thing.

 

As to shape and balance, you'd swear it weighs half as much as it does, and it doesn't weigh much. Point the tip somewhere, blind, and it's exactly where you expect it to be. Perfection.

 

Then abuse it. Do some things you shouldn't and promise yourself you'll really hit the stones tomorrow. When you do, you'll really struggle to figure out where you did the wrong thing, because it didn't change the knife a whit. I don't know why, but it's true.

 

And then there's the "readiness" thing. I cannot convey this to someone who hasn't used this thing, but I have used a variety of pretty hard-core Japanese knives. I have, and use constantly, some reasonably high-end single-bevels, sharpened well. But when I take out the Masamoto I always get this same feeling: "okay, now it's time to get serious, no messing around any more." Somehow, the usuba, the yanagiba's, they feel just a hair prissy and special-interest. The deba's, it seems like maybe they're just for special butchering things or something. But the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto? I don't know, it just slides into the hand and says, "let's play."

 

I know, car analogies are overdone, but this is the real deal: the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto is a Ferrari, minus the constant repair shop stuff.

I pulled the trigger on this about 5 minutes ago: http://www.echefknife.com/hagane-yo-gyutou-chef-knife-10.5-270mm.html

Congratulations, Troop.  I hope you will be very happy together.

I'm goung to modify the knife when it comes... I'll post before and after pics. Here is the knife I ordered, from the vendor site image (I actually ordered mine off of amazon)

 

Simple Mods:

1. Radius the Chole(sp?) - Flat heel of the knife will be radiused somewhat.

2. 2000-grit wet/dry sand/polish of sides.

3. "Soften" the baclstrap and bolster to get rid of sharp right-angles.

4. Sharpen the edge a bit - not sure what angle, but about 1000-grit

5. Force a uniform blood-patina before pressing into service.

 

Should be here in the next 7-12 days. I need to look at stones now. I have a set of IDK-WTF-they-are-model combi-stones that have worked fine for me since the dawn of time.

Now you guys are talking about 1k, 3k, 5k, 10k-grit stones..... BDL, just post links to what I really need and I will blindly purchase on your reccomendation.

This is what I use currently:

 

Hey -- I have some old Carborundum brand stones somewhere. I forgot about those. Brings back memories.

 

Honestly, I'm mostly bumping this, to be sure somebody can give you really good advice about waterstones -- and you do need them for this knife, if you're going to love it. But that progression you listed is totally unnecessary. Setting aside coarse, you want something like 1k, 3-5k, 10k or 2k, 5-6k, 10k. And the 10k is mostly for fun anyway: you mostly get benefit of that kind of super-high polishing with a dedicated slicer. But it is fun.

 

Let me ask one question before somebody else does: what's your budget for the stones, grand total?

Would $1k cover needed stones, resurface plates, mounts/bases and whatever else is in a good kit?

Yikes! Yes, it certainly would. I'll wait to see what the experts say about this, though -- my recommendations are worth very little in this area.