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Looking for knife/board/sharpening advice - Page 2

post #31 of 44
12/28/09 at 8:40am
What we know for a fact is that the OP is NOT interested in a Boardsmith board so all of that is way OT. All of the other brands the OP has mentioned are NSF rated so what makes you think they don't care?
I'm not saying your wrong, after all I did fail my psychic hot line exam! :rolleyes:
Since a NSF rated board doesn't cost any more to me it seems like a totally inane point. If your happy using boards made in China or made with who knows what kind of glue by all means have at it.
It seems as though you may have grumpy Santa syndrome. You know why poor ole Santa suffers from that ?......He only gets to come once a year and then it's down the chimney.
GF I use a blend of mineral oil and bees wax. You can make your own board treatment by melting one part bees wax or paraffin in ten parts of mineral oil.
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post #32 of 44
12/28/09 at 9:22am
I use a beeswax/mineral oil mixture on my boards. I use 10 parts oil to 1 part wax by weight. If you don't have a kitchen scale (why not?) then you can approximate by mixing a tablespoon of shaved beeswax in one-half cup of oil. Warm the oil in a microwave and add the wax, stirring until incorporated. If it's too thick, thin with more oil. I try for the consistency of room temperature butter.
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post #33 of 44
12/28/09 at 10:31am
That I can do! thanks guys!
dan
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post #34 of 44
12/28/09 at 8:27pm
I never once mentioned the Boardsmith. He never once mentioned NSF. Should we perhaps follow his lead and drop it, and maybe move on to something that might help him?
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post #35 of 44
12/30/09 at 10:43am
Thread Starter 

Continued reflection

Love the passion everyone brings to the discussion!

I am working with Mark at CKTG to nail down which knives I... sorry, WE.. will get, but I am going to get back to the sharpening debate. Since Shun offers free sharpening, that was a big positive with that route, even if mail in costs were considered ($45 per year), perhaps not the best possible edge was achieved at the factory and we had to be without the gyotu for about 6 weeks out of the year (assuming 3x per year)

Korin being nearby enables probably very sharp, maybe 2 weeks of downtime in the year. However, that is $50 per year for the gyotu, maybe another $80 for the other knives = $130 per year.

The Chef's Choice sharpener route really brings a lot to the table due to no sending out, no down time, and a fixed cost (albeit high $80-$170). However, BDL mentioned that they would only get the knives "sort of sharp" vs very sharp. I know the reason we are discussing this is because we're all about the sharp, but any guesses at how much difference there would be? Would using a CC mean having a Wusthof equivalent most of the time? While we are here, which one of the these CCs make the most sense?
http://www.chefschoice.com/docfiles/qrfasian.pdf

Finally, the true believer route. From a thread elsewhere, here are suggestions for the starter stone kit. Putting aside the learning curve, ideas on the cost for the following (I think $200+), and how much per year to replace items?

-A stone flattener (I recommend a DMT plate)
-A 1k stone (I recommend the bester 1200)
-A 6k stone (consider the naniwa SS 5k, king 6k, takenoko 6k, shapton glasstone 6k)
-A knife sharpening guide like Dave has on JKS to help you maintain angle control while you are learning the ropes
-Dave's dvd on how to sharpen
-A leather or felt strop
-A felt block or pad or a piece of wood to use for removing burrs
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post #36 of 44
12/30/09 at 11:15am
You can't go wrong with Mark at CKTG. Be sure you search for a discount code before you order. You may want to try "knifeforums" or the month as the magik word. ;)

I wouldn't worry a lot about which stone flattener you buy. Just pick up what ever Dave or Mark has if you order from them. They both carry flatteners as well as knife guides which is a great way to learn. You don't need felt pads, a strop or a 6k stone to start.
Ease into it.
Get a DVD, the edge guide, a flattener and a 1k Stone (Naniwa Chosera would be my choice) and a 5k SS. That's plenty to get started.
I've ordered several stones from CKTG. Service is top knotch and it's hard to beat Marks prices.
This should set you back no more than $225 counting $50 or the DVD set by Dave. You should not have any replacement costs for a few years.
Skip the Chefs Choice grinders. IMO that should be a last resort.....by a considerable margin.
I hope you let us know what you end up with.
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post #37 of 44
12/30/09 at 11:35am
The Model 15, which is their top of the line as far as you're concerned, would net you a considerably better edge than anything you could put on a Wusthof -- at least using Wustie's factory bevel. The CC is incredibly convenient; sitting on the counter as it does. The 15 will also take care of honing and stropping, and your wife can do it herself if she has a mind. The knives will get sharp enought that you'll know they're sharp; but they won't do any of the msystical things that extremely sharp knives do -- like "falling though" an onion.

First idea -- if you're spending $200+ to hand sharpen, you should really consider an Edge Pro Apex.

The DMT will flatten fast, last forever, etc. It's not a bad way to flatten, but expensive. Depending on a few variables, flattening on dry wall screen might be better.
The Bester 1200 is very hard and requires at least a couple of hours of soaking before using. Otherwise it's a very good stone. FWIW, it's the waterstone I use at this grit level.
Complicated subject. Your ideal kit probably doesn't have a 6K.
Another complicated subject. Personally, I don't care for them.
Dave's is very good. So are Korin's, John Juranitch's and Murray Carter's. It would be nice to have at least one.
Probably not. At least not yet.
Dave's felt block (at JKS) is supposed to be awesome. Wood or a wine cork are just fine -- especially if you know how to chase the burr so that it comes off easily.

All things considered, if I were choosing a sharpening kit for you, it would be all Naniwa SS. I'd start with the 400, 1000, and 3000 stones and add an 8000 or 10000 stone later. If you want to know about the other stones you listed, ask in another post. This one is taking up a lot of bandwidth already.

BDL
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post #38 of 44
12/30/09 at 12:24pm
"The Model 15, which is their top of the line as far as you're concerned, would net you a considerably better edge than anything you could put on a Wusthof -- at least using Wustie's factory bevel"


That might be a wee bit of an exageration and is subject to interpretation at the very least. Another thing to consider is a grinder in the wrong hands can destroy a knife PDQ.
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post #39 of 44
12/30/09 at 12:48pm
DuckFat wrote, LOL. I can see why you might think that needs some clarification.

A CC 15 sharpens a 15* flat bevel (30* included) to around a 2000ANSI (5000ish JIS) level of polish when the knife is pushed through all three sections. Wusthof's standard angle, for all but their Ikons and (discontinued) LCB's is right around 20* edge, 40* included angle. Moreover, a Wusthof won't hold a particularly high degree of polish. The steel scuffs very easily.

So, in my opinion, a 15* edge, 30* included angle sharpened to the CC level of quality will act sharper and be less likely to wedge than a 20* edge, 40* included angle no matter how well beautifully done.

General agreement with you Duck, at least about grinders generally. But, it's pretty hard to do that with a modern CC -- especially if you follow the instructions. The angle holders are good. You only use the fast grit the first time you sharpen, then about once a year thereafter. The medium grit and fine "strop" aren't fast enough to do much damage if you're paying attention. And the instructions are very good -- even telling you how to gauge the amount of pressure you're using, how many strokes at a given grit, how to pull the knife through, and so on.

Not that a skilled sharpener can't do a better job by hand; and not that even a little bit of practice will net you a better edge on an Edge Pro. But Chef's Choice are pretty good machines, really.

BDL
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post #40 of 44
12/30/09 at 2:18pm
Ahh I see where your coming from BDL. The one thing I have seen people do with the grinders is gouge the rear of the blade the first time they use the grinder. Always a good idea to start with an old knife to get the feel of the wheel. For lack of a better description the sort of feel like they are grabbing the blade when you first start using one.
I'm just not a grinder fan although to be honest I use a Chefs choice on my Dexter cleaver after I abuse it. Saves a bunch of time.
Not much point in trying to polish a Wusthof (hangs head in shame). :lol:
I would be leaning very hard to the Edge pro over a grinder but that's just a personal preference.
Korin does give away their DVD with a purchase during some of their sales. I got one for free from them with a Masamoto KS. Just some thing to consider before dropping $50 on a DVD.
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post #41 of 44
12/30/09 at 4:10pm
BDL suggested the Edge Pro Apex system, and I highly recommend it. Everything you need is in the Edge Pro Apex 3 kit from CKTG for $190 after discount (enter "knifeforumsdiscount" coupon code at checkout). The polish tapes in the '4' kit are nice, but not necessary, and if you decide you need them, can be ordered directly from Edge Pro.

The learning curve is not steep, and the instructional DVD will show you everything you need to know to get up and running.

Setting up takes less than five minutes, less time than it takes to soak waterstones, and it doesn't make near the mess that waterstones do. The entire kit stores in a Cordura case (included) and measures 18" x 6" x 2". The stones wear slower than a waterstone, and can be flattened using a sheet of wet/dry 220 grit sandpaper on a flat surface when they do start to dish.

The Edge Pro is much more versatile than the Chef's Choice sharpeners (which I also have) in that you are not restricted to one or two angles. Unlike the Chef's Choice, the Edge Pro can be used on thick bladed, narrow bladed and small bladed knives.

Based on my experience with my Edge Pro, the stones should last at least a year or two, unless you are sharpening as a business or do a lot of profiling and thinning of your knives.

If I sound enthusiastic about the Edge Pro, I am. I consider it to be the easiest method for a beginner to start sharpening Japanese (and German) knives.
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post #42 of 44
3/19/10 at 2:39pm
Thread Starter 
BDL et al,

Thought I would finally get back to you as promised on what I finally ended up getting.  Pictures are below!  You may be a bit disappointed in that we ended up going low end, but I think it shows how what you want may not be what you need.  If you recall, it was basically an effort to upgrade my wife's knife kit for her use at home as an enthusiastic amateur chef, as she currently had a few cheapo Chinese serrated.  After much discussion on these boards and others, and multiple visits to Korin, I was shooting for:

1. Gyuto:  240mm Ichimonji TKC or Akifusa
2. Parer:  Forschener Rosewood
3. Bread: MAC Superior 10.5"
4. Slicer:  Hiromoto G3 270mm sujihiki
5. Cleaver:  Tojiro Pro
6.  Board: Boardsmith
7.  Sharpening:  Edge Pro Apex 3

However, after much discussion with the wife ("are you looking at knives AGAIN?"), I figured out her comfort level with the recommended gyuto size and the sharpening regime was close to nil.  We ended up getting:

1. Gyuto:  8" Wasabi Black chef's
2. Parer:  4" Wasabi Black parer
3. Bread:  9" Wasabi Black bread
4. Cleaver:  CCK Bone Chopper (carbon) 
5.  Board: 15"x15"x2" Michigan Maple Block end grain maple

From her point of view: The Wasabi Black design appeals to her, she's ok with the 8" size for the chef's, and the KAI Shun free sharpening service will help us maintain a serviceable edge.  Consoling myself, I hope the 58 Hrc on the Wasabi Black should help retain a decent edge for a bit, the CCK is fun to have, and the cost of the set up was just over $200 (excluding $40 per year for sharpening service postage) instead of around $900 for the kit I really wanted!

Experience so far:  the Wasabi Blacks are actually quite good cutters, but let's see how long the edges hold up.  The CCK is scaring the what not out of everyone who sees it, but is unused as of yet.  The first board had to be returned due to a crack, but the second one seems perfectly serviceable.  I am still spending too much time looking at knives, and will probably end up owning a Shigefusa or Masamoto Honyaki with the money I "saved"!

Wasabi Blacks & Board

IMGP2196.JPG

CCK Bone Chopper

CCK Bone Chopper
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post #43 of 44
3/21/10 at 6:51am
Congrats on the knives Jigri. 
Edited by DuckFat - 3/21/10 at 7:27am
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post #44 of 44
3/21/10 at 7:24am
Congratulations on your new knives.  Both of you use them in the best of health.

Hi Ducky.  Long time no see.

BDL
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