or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Stock Making Debate

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
Our Exec and our Sous are in a rather heated debate over how to make stock. Our Exec makes his stocks the way I learned in school, roasting the bones in the oven. He claims our Sous Chef's way merely "sears" the bones and does not really extract as much flavor from them as roasting them in an oven does. Its pretty obvious whose way reigns supreme, but I was wondering if anyone else has heard of the style of stock our Sous makes.

Our Sous roasts the bones (chicken or veal) in the big tilt griddle that we have with a little oil. He adds mirepoix and tomato paste and continues to roast everything together. After deglazing with a little burgandy and water, he scrapes the bottom of the skillet clean with a giant metal spatula, adds his sachets, and then fills the entire tilt griddle with ice (close to 5 standard size ice pails).

His reasoning for the ice is that supposedly colder water extracts gelatinous material from the bones better, and you can't get much colder than ice. His reasoning for roasting the bones in the pan is that you don't lose any precious fond when transferring bones from a roasting pan to the kettle since everything done within the skillet.

Opinions? I'm not looking to prove either boss wrong, I was just curious to see if anyone else has heard of methods like this.
post #2 of 49
I don't know it sounds like he just wants to do every thing in one skillet. Sounds to me like thats a pretty tiddy way to do it, and if you went about it the right way you would end up with a good stock. But I'll bet the chefs stock is better. I think the sous being lazy. Maybe he's burned a few batches bones....
post #3 of 49
Most kitchens have two ironclad rules:

1. The Chef may not always be right, but the Chef is NEVER wrong!

2. If you think the Chef is wrong, see Rule 1!
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #4 of 49
If I had th luxury of a tilt skillet, I'd use it over the stock pot.

The roasting is only to develop flavour, doesn't matter if you do it in an oven or a skillet.

"Lazy" is a cruel word. "Practical" or "Smart" sounds better. Heaving all those bones in and out of the oven, pouring off fat, balancing the pan on arack in order to stir around th mire-poix, putting the pans back in again--it does get dangerous and quite time consuming.

(I unceremoniously "Dump" the whole pan of bones from the oven on to the flat-top. Then with tongs I pick up all the bones and toss them back in pan. The fat stays on the flat-top where I scrape it down the glory-hole. This method trumps any other method that involves dumping the pan over a collander to drain off fat--It's very hard to control especially if you're alone. It is VERY important to pour off fat, if it accumulates t stinks up the whole oven (and kitchen) and can taint the stock. The fond that develops either stays in the roasting pan or on the bones)
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #5 of 49
My chef once told a reporter "Oh no, you've got it wrong. "Chef" is spelled g, o, d."
post #6 of 49
(I unceremoniously "Dump" the whole pan of bones from the oven on to the flat-top. Then with tongs I pick up all the bones and toss them back in pan. The fat stays on the flat-top where I scrape it down the glory-hole. This method trumps any other method that involves dumping the pan over a collander to drain off fat--It's very hard to control especially if you're alone. It is VERY important to pour off fat, if it accumulates t stinks up the whole oven (and kitchen) and can taint the stock. The fond that develops either stays in the roasting pan or on the bones)[/QUOTE]


does'nt sound like a very safe pratice to me.......just sayin'.....fire hazard :smoking:
post #7 of 49
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are many ways to getting a right result and both methods have merit in my opinion. I normally prefer to sear and "roast" bones in the same vessel as the stock pot too, so as not to lose any fond. However, the veal bones we use at the restaurant are shaped strangely so it's ard to get a good browning on them on a flat surface; the oven gets all parts of the surface brown.

As for the merits of starting in warm vs. cold water and the merits of extracting more flavour and gelatin from certain methods of cooking... well, that is for the scientists to help us discover. Personally I think it has roots in the 'searing seals in the juices' fable as well. However, it has been shown that certain things such as starting in cold vs. hot water has had no noticable effect on flavour and the extracting of bulk matter from the meat/bones, especially with the cooking time of a veal stock being so long. I like to use cold water because I don't trust what sort of crap that is in the hot water at home and that goes through the pipes at work.
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
post #8 of 49
How a fire hazzard?
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #9 of 49
When you use ice to start a stock instead of hot water, the fat that raises to the top of the stock for skimming tends to be easier to skim (larger pools of fat versus many small pools).
I make jus with veal bones and calves feet, we place the bones in cold water and bring to the simmer, then drain the bones in a colander, wash with cold water and return to a clean pan, this gets rid of the scum from the bones. We then simmer 6 hours with veg and tomato paste, no wine or alcohol. We pass the stock and retain the bones. We cover the cooked bones in water and simmer for another six hours (water and bones only). We pass the second "stock", marry with the first and reduce. This stock is versatile because it does not contain pork (pig trotters) or alcohol making it easier when dealing with various dietary requirements. We DO NOT roast the veal bones; lamb and chicken bones etc yes, veal no.
The finished product is easily adaptable by adding wine, brandy, Madeira etc. (we all know how to suck eggs:)). We adopted this recipe from the French Laundry cookbook.
UNDER PRESSURE AT PEMBROKE
Cooking sous vide at Cambridge's third oldest College
http://thepembrokekitchen.blogspot.com/
Reply
UNDER PRESSURE AT PEMBROKE
Cooking sous vide at Cambridge's third oldest College
http://thepembrokekitchen.blogspot.com/
Reply
post #10 of 49
The answer here seems to lie in the final outcome. Is there a difference in tast or quality of either or which tast better. As far as procedure, both will work. I think adding 100 ice is going a bit overboard as he is not making consomme here. Cold water will suffice in a stock be it poultry or meat or fish. I am sure both gentlemen have been doing this with success for years so I say ""If it aint broke, don't fix it""
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #11 of 49
Just teach him the simple phrase, "How would you like that prepared, Chef?" and his life will be so much easier. :smoking:
Dammi un coltello affilato e vi mostrerò l'arte più belle del mondo.
Reply
Dammi un coltello affilato e vi mostrerò l'arte più belle del mondo.
Reply
post #12 of 49
You're allowed to debate things in the kitchen, as long as you ultimately do it the way the chef wants it.
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
post #13 of 49
i have only made stock by roasting bones, i have never attempted or even thought of making stock with seared bones or anything similar. classic is best and just to reiterate what everyone else said... chef rules. once youre up there you can make your own decisions, but do as the chef says and youll be chef one day, try to go your own route and youll find yourself working in many kitchens but never getting further than that.
post #14 of 49
I've heard of making it both ways and I prefer roast the bones when I make stock but that is just my choice. As it's been said here... the Chef is the Chef and ultimately it is his kitchen so things will be done his way and the sous needs to follow his lead even if he doesn't agree with it.
OK ... where am I going?.. and WHY am I in this handbasket??
Reply
OK ... where am I going?.. and WHY am I in this handbasket??
Reply
post #15 of 49
it sounds like the sous is making a mistaken understanding of a volute.
post #16 of 49
Chris, I think in most applications a Veloute is white.
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #17 of 49
Quite right chef- hence the mistaken understanding! :lol:

...I'm sorry, I don't make jokes very often for this reason alone!
post #18 of 49
I think the sous is trying to be a bit more organized and clean, however his method wastes time and perhaps does not get enough colour on the bones. Roasting is always going to more consistent and at the end of the day you don't need some one constantly watching them in the oven, just checking periodically. More importantly, searing them makes you liable to add some burnt bits of miropoix or paste which wouldn't do much for your flavor or clarity.

I think the sous has good intentions but he's trying to be too creative.
post #19 of 49
I have a tilt braiser and it never occurred to me to use it like this. It seems like more work than roasting bones. When I run into a situation like this I let my guys show me their way. In this case we would do a blind taste test. If they can show me they can produce a better stock with out a lot more work then I'm good with that. The last thing I want to do is dissuade my guys from thinking. If the results are the same and it takes more work then it's back to the oven and the steam kettle.
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
Reply
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
Reply
post #20 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input guys. I was just curious of what feedback I would get on this one.

For the record, we do it the Chef's way, there is obiously no other way in his kitchen. We are allowed to debate things as previously mentioned here, we just better be certain we know what were talking about.

We made 1/2 a batch of bones Chef's way yesterday. I'm gonna see if we can make the other 1/2 the Sous' way and compare the two. I agree that this is probably the only way to settle the debate.
post #21 of 49
Ras.....The Chef side of me would say the debate was settled when the Chef explained how "HE" makes the stock but the human side of me understands the reason behind a comparison. Just make sure you are dealing with the Human side and not the Chef side of your Chef when you present Him with that comparison. :rolleyes: :thumb:
post #22 of 49
Hear hear, in the modern kitchen the chef's word is still law, but a chef who closes himself from opinions is shutting himself from a valuable resource.
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
"If it's chicken, chicken a la king. If it's fish, fish a la king. If it's turkey, fish a la king." -Bender
Reply
post #23 of 49
That is PRICELESS!!!!
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
post #24 of 49

You have a tilt skillet? 

 

In all seriousness, what else do you use it for?

post #25 of 49

What do I use a tilt skillet for?

 

-Soups, very easy o do Fr. Onion in one

-Stews, of corse, the best thing for it.

-Done lots of srambled eggs in it or B'fast buffets and the like

-Poached a lot of whole samon and coils and coils of snausages in it

-Frying burgers, pork chops.

-Even done deep frying in it.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #26 of 49
Thread Starter 

I never thought about using it as a deep fryer... wow, this is why I love posting/reading here.

 

This Sous Chef has left the kitchen.  Our Chef clarified on how he would like his stocks made with that nice smile of victory on his face.

post #27 of 49

I think its worth pointing out from previous experience that the addition of tomato paste degrades the final texture if the the stock is being reduced to glace. Its for this reason that I avoid using tomato paste in this recipe. 

 

Heres how I do it

 

Roast Bones 2 1/2 hours, roast mirepoix separately, 3/4 hour. put in a stock pot. Cold water, skim. Bring to a simmer. Add garni, peppercorns, thyme, bay,garlic. simmer gently for 48 hours. Remove bones, pass - chill, remove unwanted fat on surface. From there I usually reduce to red win jus/glace so in another pot sweat mirepoix(with shallot), garlic, thyme, good quality red wine, reduce to 20%, add the beef stock, reduce by half, pass through a chinois, reduce until consistency is acheived. Box it away for use.

 

 

 

post #28 of 49

I agree with both methods. The Sous is modern in approach but works, as does the chefs. In cooking if the final product is good and acceptable to public, then in reality there is no right or wrong. However the right or wrong in most cases is when you take the name of a classic dish and serve something like it.. Example I just took a cruise they called grilled Filet Mignon with an asparagus on top A La Rossinni. This is wrong as the dish is traditionaly served with either a Slice or Rosette of Pate d' foi gras on top.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
post #29 of 49

I completely disagree with the searing method. You will never get an even color on the bones and will probably have some burning which will give your stock a bitterness. Also, you waste time tending to the bones instead of cutting your veg while they roast, which is obviously more time efficient.

 

Where I work, we do no roast or blanch the bones because that's the way the chef wants it done. I keep my mouth shut. The bones should either be roasted or blanched. Why? To remove surface impurities which will give you a clearer stock. The choice to roast or blanch will depend on the end. A roasted bones will give a darker and more complex tasting stock thanks to the Maillard reaction. Blanched bones are good for a white veal stock. My sous-chef claims that roasting the bones yields a bitter taste...to which I replied, ''only if they're burnt".

 

As for the hot/cold start debate, cold is the only way to go. "A hot start produces many separate protein particles that remain suspended and cloud the stock" - Harold McGee On food and Cooking. A cold start will allow all the free particles to rise to the surface which can be skimmed off. It is also equally important never to cover a stock because it prevents boiling(which will cloud the stock) and also allows the surface particles to dry out making it easier to skim. Adding ice cubes to a stock has a similar clarifying effect. To make it easier to skim, you can put the pot only half way on the burner so the scum will tend to gather only on one side of the pot. I would also advise to add the vegetables only after skimming a few times, it will make it way easier. I read somewhere that to have the clearest stock possible, it should be brought to a simmer as slowly as possible. 

 

For the vegetables, they can also be roasted, or not. It always depends on what you want your end result to be. For example, you wouldn't roast vegetables for a white stock. Similarly, tomato paste is only added to brown stock because it would give white stock an undesirable color. However, tomato paste, or another acidic component is very important because acid helps dissolve connective tissue which will give your stock more body(gelatine). Beware, too much tomato paste will cloud the stock.

 

I have read that vegetables also give out most of their flavor after 45mins - an hour. After that, the cell walls break down, the vegetables turn to much and clouds the stock and also adds a slight bitterness. But I have never seen anyone add vegetables to a stock during the last hour of cooking...

 

Maybe I'm looking too much into this stock making process, but never forget that it's the base for so many culinary preparations and without quality ingredients, you will never make quality food.

A quality stock should be evaluated on four things:

  1. Clarity
  2. Flavor
  3. Aroma
  4. Body

 

I hope some of this information will be helpful to all of you. Bon courage!

post #30 of 49

In many cases the first simmer or boil is discarded so as to rid the bones of outer garbage, and bones are not roasted for a white stock of any kind, be it poultry, beef or veal. If you keep cooking a white based stock it will turn darker and flavor will be more intense.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Professional Chefs