or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Stock Making Debate - Page 2

post #31 of 49

HomeCook, are you aware that you are posting in a forum for professional only??

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #32 of 49

I subscribe to the roasting method. As many have stated here you get an even browning. Once the bones have browned nicely I add a full Mire poix and roast until carmelized. I then add the tomato paste and toss the bones to get a somewhat even coating and let brown a bit more. I drain off the fat that has been rendered and reserve for Roux. I'll remove the bones, then deglaze the roasting pan/s with red wine. Everything into either the steam kettle or the Swiss/Tilt skillet, which ever I won't be needing in the time it takes to simmer the stock. I always use cold water to start the simmer process. It helps to end with a clear versus cloudy stock. Not sure of the science behind it but it does work.

post #33 of 49

Put bones in roasting pan.

Roast until nicely caramelized.

remove. leaving fat in pan

add mirepoix,

roast until starting to caramelize

add tomato product.

roast til caramelized

dump all into stock pot,leaving spigot open to let fat run out (and be collected)

close spigot.

deglaze roaster on rangetop, leaving no fond in pan.

add to stock pot

add cold water, bring to simmer.

if it never comes to a rolling boil, there will not be an issue with cloudiness.

The fat will separate and rise to the top when the stock cools.

 

Dead simple. It works and it works well.

 

Using a tilt skillet... the heat comes from one place... the skillet. Bones are not flat. They will not contact the surface of the skillet evenly and therefore will not caramelize as well. Period.

Cold water does not aid in extracting gelatin, cooking does. Cold water prevents the impurites and proteins from coagulating too quickly and clouding the stock. The water heats slowly, and the impurites rise to the surface. Ice is unnecessary. 

 

I would love to see the stocks side by side. I'd bet a pint that the roasted stock has better colour and flavour.

post #34 of 49


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danvis65 View Post

I subscribe to the roasting method. As many have stated here you get an even browning. Once the bones have browned nicely I add a full Mire poix and roast until carmelized. I then add the tomato paste and toss the bones to get a somewhat even coating and let brown a bit more. I drain off the fat that has been rendered and reserve for Roux. I'll remove the bones, then deglaze the roasting pan/s with red wine. Everything into either the steam kettle or the Swiss/Tilt skillet, which ever I won't be needing in the time it takes to simmer the stock. I always use cold water to start the simmer process. It helps to end with a clear versus cloudy stock. Not sure of the science behind it but it does work.



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by PrairieChef View Post

Put bones in roasting pan.

Roast until nicely caramelized.

remove. leaving fat in pan

add mirepoix,

roast until starting to caramelize

add tomato product.

roast til caramelized

dump all into stock pot,leaving spigot open to let fat run out (and be collected)

close spigot.

deglaze roaster on rangetop, leaving no fond in pan.

add to stock pot

add cold water, bring to simmer.

if it never comes to a rolling boil, there will not be an issue with cloudiness.

The fat will separate and rise to the top when the stock cools.

 

Dead simple. It works and it works well.

 

Using a tilt skillet... the heat comes from one place... the skillet. Bones are not flat. They will not contact the surface of the skillet evenly and therefore will not caramelize as well. Period.

Cold water does not aid in extracting gelatin, cooking does. Cold water prevents the impurites and proteins from coagulating too quickly and clouding the stock. The water heats slowly, and the impurites rise to the surface. Ice is unnecessary. 

 

I would love to see the stocks side by side. I'd bet a pint that the roasted stock has better colour and flavour.

As many have stated.

Dead simple.
I employ these techniques, only on a smaller scale. Which might explain why the word remouillage was not used in your production of stock. Do you? or is it just to time consuming?

I'm also wondering if you blanch bones aiding in discarding of impurities that cause cloudiness.I have blanched and I have not blanched, I don't know if I could tell the difference, just like I was told never to add parsley stem to stock, because it will make it cloudy.The 100's of times I have, has not made it cloudy. The 2 main points I use are cold water and as soon as a bubble breaks, I turn it right down to a simmer. Cool,refrigerate, and remove fat the next day works like a charm.

post #35 of 49

Hi Taj,

   Only in some of the kitchens I've been in did we make a remouillage. A "second wetting" of the bones. This second and weaker stock was used in the making of soups. And the first wetting for sauces. I think it all depends on the Chef and if the kitchen set up allows for it.

post #36 of 49

TAJ > Don't know who said or told you parsley stems make cloudy? Maybe they are smoking them? Don't believe it

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
post #37 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Buchanan View Post

TAJ > Don't know who said or told you parsley stems make cloudy? Maybe they are smoking them? Don't believe it



I've never heard that either, Ed. The only time I would leave parsley stems out would be for a fond blanc.

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
Reply
Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
Reply
post #38 of 49

A couple of thoughts.....

 

Fat is a thief, it robs flavour and colour.  The longer you leave it in the stock, the more flavour it sucks up.  Mind you, you can always use this fat to sweat soup vegetables in, but I digress. Also, in a busy kitchen the odds of someone turning the heat up on the pot or stirring the contents vigoursly is much higher, and results are an emulsified fat and stock grunge.  Remove as much fat as possible 

 

Remouillage has more flavour than water. For me, the best use for remy is to wet new roasted bones.  In James Peterson's "sauces" he shows an elaborate system of sauce making using one remouillage after another with excellent results.  Another use is to reduce the remy down to a glace de viande, cut into cubes and toss into a'la minute suaces for a "flavour-boost"

 

Parsley stems?  It is true that a LOT of onions will turn a stock cloudy, but not parsley stems.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #39 of 49

one of the spots i worked in we always made remy after the initial stock was made. i agree fully on the roasting of the bones. that's the way i was taught in school and that's the way every place that i've ever worked in has done it. also a few people said something about losing fond through the roasting process. how is that possible if you deglaze your roasting pan. as for onions clouding a stock i'm not sure but if you're using proper ratio's then you shouldn't have to worry about it.

post #40 of 49

If anything will cloud a stock it will be the Calcium or Albumin  from the bones. One can't help clouding a stock a bit when making it. When you change a stock to a Consomme this is when you worry about clouding and scediment.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
post #41 of 49

If you boil stocks, they'll not only cloud but you won't ever be able to completely clarify them.  If you don't boil the stock, and do skim the scum more or less as soon as it forms, and follow the basic stock making procedures, you'll end up with a fairly clear stock.

 

To make consomme or jewel-clear aspic, take a clear stock, defat it, and further clarify it by using a little, lean ground meat and an egg white raft.  FWIW, the purpose of the ground meat is to start a sort of elevator current of protein into the raft which attracts and holds all the impurities which would otherwise make for cloudiness.  Sometimes, fine thread-like cuts of (leek, not onion) mirepoix are added along with the ground meat to help structure the raft (and add some flavor as well).  It's important they be cut fine enough to be light enough to be carried up into the raft -- at least as fine as julienne, but they don't have to be regulation julienne length -- in fact somewhat longer is somewhat better.

 

The big trick with clarifying is not so much the clarification itself as getting the liquid out of the pot without disturbing the raft and knocking crud back into the pot.  That means draining the clarified stock off from the bottom if your stock pot has a spigot, or "punching through" the raft.  Don't let the word "punch" fool you.  You actually gently push the raft to one side -- and very frikkin' carefully ladle the clarified stock out of the pot through the hole and through a cheesecloth lined fine strainer or tami -- just in case. You absolutely cannot strain the raft out of the liquid or vice versa or you'll just return all the unwanted impurities to the consomme.  By the way, this means leaving a fair amount of fully clarified consomme at the bottom of the stock pot, because you can't get to it without messing up the raft.  Part of the process.

 

To make what's called a double consomme you reduce the already clarified consomme and seived consomme by about 1/3.  You don't need to further clarify it.

 

It's a lot of trouble but nothing fancy, basic technique. 

 

BDL

What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
post #42 of 49

In answer to an earlier question, yes I make remi evertime I make stock. I use the remi for braising my brisket,as a nice base made so much better through the process. I don't like using it on it's own, even as a  base for soups. It's a good start for any slow cooked wet-heat redmeat dish though.

 

Consomme is a treat to make. One of the things that I truly, truly enjoy making. I don't do it often enough these days.

post #43 of 49

It sure helps if you have an old consomme pot with the spout on bottom.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Buchanan View Post

It sure helps if you have an old consomme pot with the spout on bottom.


3/4"  drill and a faucett assembly from a plumbing store.  DAMHIKT...............

The bettter pots have a removable "cage" around the spigot, a'la the strainer corner in your pot wash sink.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #45 of 49

I wonder if you can use powdered eggwhite for clarifying stock.  Hmm...

post #46 of 49

I'm just not to sure who to reply to, however smoking parsley stems is not going to make the cut; it has to be hemp in order to get the full effect. I also don't think very well, and it was not the onion, as to the onion peel that I meant to say, which gives the stock a golden hue, more so then making it cloudy. As for parsley, I'm sure it was one of my cooking instructors, heck who knows and I certainly don't abide by it, or any other directions stated within culinary text bks. A lot of stuff goes into my stocks, including outer leaves and core of cabbage, core of cauliflower, outer skin of broccoli stems, washed eggshells, Brussels sprout leaves..... And as an added note to what is taught in schools, "never refrigerate warm stocks", endangering other foods or fridge. Along with this directive "Don't leave stocks to cool at rm. temp." Try explaining that to my employer, who wants me out of the kitchen as soon as possible to cut down on labor costs. Anyways I feel like I'm on a rant, and I'm not meaning to be. I know timing and ice baths are cool ways to reduce temp.

Aside from that, I would like to clear the clearing about albumin which increases clarifying power. As for defatting, once stock has settled and fat rises to the top to congeal, use ladle swirling from center outwards, spooning fat off at edges; a cold leaf of lettuce, or paper towel will also absorb fat.

The remo, is like I could never not do it, like a horse with those things (blinders) on there eyes, you always made one, that was the way I was taught, in other words if I had an espresso, it would have sambuca in it.Espresso Correcto. Speaking of stocks I have 6 "Soups from around the World" classes to demo, and given the allotted time I will show how to make a quick 20 min.stock, but for the most part I will use prepared stocks.

Ending with a quote from Carrol Lewis "Who would not give all else for two pennyworth of beautiful soup?

I'm sorry I don't quite know how I got on to the topic of soups  rather then stocks

post #47 of 49

Kuan  Only if you mix in water first, I tried it. But the egg whites in containers in stores works also if you have no use for yolks.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

Reply
post #48 of 49

"including outer leaves and core of cabbage, core of cauliflower, outer skin of broccoli stems, washed eggshells, Brussels sprout leaves "

 

Brussel sprouts and cabbage? Why would you add these to stock?

Eggshells? What flavour do eggshells add to your stock?

Celery carrot and onion... aromatic vegetables. Brocolli, Cauliflower and Cabbage are gassy, strong flavoured vegetables.

 

Other than using the stockpot as a garbage can to alleviate your guilt about wasting food...  I can't see the point.

 

And.. lettuce is mostly water. It won't "absorb" anything. paper towel... fine. But why not just cool your stock in a bain marie, then place it in the cooler? Pull the fat off in a solid piece.. and save a ton of time and effort... and lettuce and paper towel.

 

"Speaking of stocks I have 6 "Soups from around the World" classes to demo, and given the allotted time I will show how to make a quick 20 min.stock "

 

no. You can show people how to make a quick 20 minute broth, or tea, but not a stock.


Edited by PrairieChef - 12/3/10 at 1:39pm
post #49 of 49

Taj,

 

PrarieChef brings up some good points. 

 

Just about any cruciferous vegetable, cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprout, cauliflower, etc.,  will make stock smell and taste like cabbage.  That's fine for cabbage soup, but I can't see using them in stock making. 

 

Egg shell helps "settle the grounds" in camp coffee.  What does it do for stock?

 

Also, what's a "remo?"

 

BDL

What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Professional Chefs