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The Pie's The Limit - Page 2

post #31 of 84
Couldn't we all just agree that some of us are right-brainers and others are left-brainers, and that makes the world more interesting?! Some of us are thinkers, and love the support they get from books, others are do-ers, and learn from doing, and observation, and way things feel.

Peace and love, y'all!
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post #32 of 84
Marmalady,
I think that is exactly what makes the world go round. I'm in no way suggesting that one way is better than the other. Interesting conversation come with boths sides at the table, not telling one side they are wrong. Disagreement is vital for learning. Trust me, there is nothing here that would ever make me mad, a little frustrating maybe, but that is healthy.
This venue is great for me because I have found that I can get a little cross with people, something I have great problems in real life. Besides, when all is said and done, I'm right!:D

I'm enjoying a week of with my wife. So without the daily grind I would be on guard here! I may have serious opinions about everything. Except Thurs, I will fly off to partake in a little poker at the casinos.;)

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post #33 of 84
Hey panini, stop threatening to leave us...you know you never will!!:D

Wendy, I am in agreement with you here too. There are very few people that would be able to detect a difference between ap and pastry in most baked goods. If I really need pastry flour, I mix ap and cake. No biggie. Quality has never suffered as a result of it.

Isa, I have heard some people say that if they need cake flour in a pinch, they mix ap flour with corn starch. Don't believe them! That's a case of what panini was saying. Some people read too much, without actually doing.
post #34 of 84
:lol: :lol:

Panini could you suggest me some books to learn about the different types of flour in the States, please?? :D :D

Seriously, I will have big problem when I get there, I am taking my flour every other month from a mill (YES!!! YOU READ WELL) outside Athens...
Things are so complicated there...
"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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post #35 of 84
You can always check out, but you can never leave.
I'm sorry I don't have to many reference books for flours here in the US. I'm pretty sure Kyle would be the one for that.
There must be some sort of flour site out there. RBA might have something. I'm sure the FDA will have something.
Get ready for a change though. A lot of our flours ard bleached, enriched, washed, dried, ironed and folded.
I'm old school, Amendola, people like that. I'm sure there is somebody writing about flours.

Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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post #36 of 84
Yes, most of our flours are enriched. But you can avoid most of that other nasty stuff. To get an idea of what is available here take a look at King Arthur Flour's web site.. Or you can visit Bob's Red Mill. These two companies are both retail and mailorder. They offer a wide variety of unbleached, unbromated, organic flours and whole grains.
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #37 of 84
Kyle,
Thanks for that KA site. I use the K A Special and thought it was the only thing available to me here. I put a call into my salesperson to see about getting some of the other flours to try.
It is considerably higher in price than the local stuff. Do you think thats because I'm in Texas or is it high in general?

Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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post #38 of 84
I think KA stuff is generally a little more expensive. They have never done me wrong and I'd rather pay up a little and know what I'm getting.
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #39 of 84
Yes, I agree. I really like the idea that you can track the flours.
You know we can get some patent flours from up north, but without some way for the consumer to track the age and the shipping conditions they are just as unreliable as our local stuff. I'm switching to the cake flour immediately if I can get it. If the % is exact as they say, it will certainly beat what I'm using now.

Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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post #40 of 84
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the flour advice Panini.

Momo,

I’ve heard of replacing part of the flour with starch. In Perfect Pastry, Malgieri uses starch in some of his cakes. In The Art Of The Cake, the authors advice replacing some of the flour by potato starch,


Cake made with American all purpose flour are sometimes too coarse and not tender enough because the flour contains too much gluten-forming proteins. We have developed a simple rule of thumb to remedy the problem using potato starch: For one ounce (25g) all purpose flour substitute 1/3 ounce (10g) potato starch plus 1 large egg yolk. The potato starch replaces the starch in the flour and the protein in the egg yolk are a non gluten forming replacement for the proteins in the flour. The result is invariably a cake with a finer crumbs and a moister and more tender texture…. We have used this substitution with great success in the classic pound cake and in génoise
When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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post #41 of 84
Hmmm...interesting...and the results are the same as you'd get with cake flour?
post #42 of 84
Isa,
I'm not understanding, but that is nothing new.

If my genoise calls for 3lbs flour . What would you substitute? 2 lbs of flour and 1lbs of potato starch and 16 yolks. Is this something you do all the time or are you quoting from a book? I'm also not understanding why not use a flour with less protien like cake flour.:confused:

Never! Live To Work!:::::::Work To Live!::Life Is Too Short!!
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post #43 of 84

Quietly reading

Your posts.

I have loved reading this thread!!!
I have learned a great deal.
Thank you
cc
Baruch ben Rueven / Chanaבראד, ילד של ריימונד והאלאן
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Baruch ben Rueven / Chanaבראד, ילד של ריימונד והאלאן
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post #44 of 84
Thread Starter 
I was quoting from The Art Of The Cake by Bruce Healy and Paul Bugat…

You are right Panini it doesn't make sense. Not presented like that anyway. Should this be a master formula it should be consistent right? I mean for 25 g flour you would have 10 g starch and 1 yolk. (Sorry can't get it straighter)

………………………………Flour………Starch………Yolk
………………………………-in grams…in grams

English Cake ………………110 ………17……….…..0
Génoise …………………...…175 ………20 ……..……7
Génoise Log ……………….125 ………10 …………...1
Malgieri Génoise……………57 ……….21…………...0
Lemon Cake………………..140……….30……...… ..2
Pound Cake…………………200……….10…………...1
Savoie Cake…………………50………..50…………....0


Checking the recipes, it's not consistent. Here is the ingredient list for the génoise recipe from the book, for two 9 inch rounds baked in cake pans or two 8 1/4 inch rounds baked in cake rings.

7 large eggs, at room temperature
2 egg yolks, at room temperature
8 ounces (225 g) sugar
6 1/4 ounces (175 g)all purpose flour
3/4 ounce (20 g) potato starch
1 ounce (30 g) unsalted butter barely melted

The pound cake, for a 6 cup loaf pan, is as follow:

8 ounces (225 g) unsalted butter barely melted
8 ounces (225 g) superfine or extra fine sugar, chilled in the refrigerator
4 large eggs, at room temperature
1 egg yolk, at room temperature
1 teaspoon (5 ml) vanilla extract
7 ounces (200 g)all purpose flour
1/3 ounce (10 g) potato starch

Conclusion? The guys are better baker than mathematician. Even if the American is a former physicit... The French one is a pastry chef owner of the Patisserie Clichy.

More seriously the recipes are good. I never looked at it that closely before though. Does it make a better cake? To know for sure one has to make two génoise one with starch and one without. One day I'll have to try it.
When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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post #45 of 84
Well I think that the formula is a good substitute for not having cake flour. on a small level. My 20 qt genoise recipe is the smallest I have.

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post #46 of 84
Thread Starter 
Dare I say they have a formula for that too...


As an exemple of how to compensate for a flour with different protein content, we will use King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour. The King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour has a protein content of about 11.7%, which is too high for cake making. King Arthur also makes an unbleached white pastry flour, called Round Table pastry flour, which has a much lower proteins content (about 9.2%) than all-purpose flour. To compensate for the higher protein content of King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour compared to Gold Medal, we recommend two possible substitution. For each 7 ounces (200 g) of all-purpose flour called in one of our recipes, use:

* either 3 ounces (100 g) King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour
plus 3 1/2 ounces (100 g) Round Table white pastry flour.

* or 6 1/4 ounces (180 g)King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour plus 1/3 ounce (10 g) potato starch.
When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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post #47 of 84
well needless to say, mixing flours here is not popular. but I think if you want a softer flour you will need to know the wheat before blending. If the apf is running 11.7 to me ,its more like bread flour. mixing pastry would still not be soft enough for cake, I don't know.

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post #48 of 84
Yes, that does sound high for ap. Why not just use the pastry flour straight up?
post #49 of 84
Nick Malgieri once scolded me for using KA AP flour (11.7 % protien) in cookies. He told me "KA flour is for bread, not cookies."
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #50 of 84
Well I'm pretty ignorant but my senses can't detect alot of these difference in flours. There's only some items where I can notice the texture differences like some cakes. I don't see it in most cookies.

Please forgive me Kyle I mean nothing personal (honestly) just my stupid old tastes and loud opinions, but I lack respect for Nick M. because I've made many recipes from him and they really are some of the worst examples of baking I've come across over the years. Sorry, I know he's well respected in the baking industry, that's just my personal opinion in respect to the recipes I've tried of his.

Rules in books aren't always right or the best advice, which is a whole new can of worms....I have sub.ed in and out a % of cornstarch for flour successful many times. In many items it works very well. But I'll only do that in items that I want a shorter or drier texture in like crusts or cookies, also alot of lady finger recipes do that too.
"Bakers are born, not made. We are exacting people who delight in submitting ourselves to rules and formulas if it means achieving repeatable perfection", Rose Levy Beranbaum
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"Bakers are born, not made. We are exacting people who delight in submitting ourselves to rules and formulas if it means achieving repeatable perfection", Rose Levy Beranbaum
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post #51 of 84
He has always spoken very highly of you :)
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #52 of 84
This thread is the reason I was looking for not coming to the States...

The life is too complicated there. Three kind of flours to make things that...

Hold your mouth Vivian!!!!!!!!!!!
"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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post #53 of 84
...go bump in the night? Take a deep cleansing breath my Hellenic friend :) You tell me about your flour and I'll find it here in the Good 'ole U.S. of A.
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #54 of 84
What go bump in the night means Kylie?

Something good or something bad? ( Seriously I don't know the expression)

I have counted already to bring just for you some of the flour I use!!! :) :)

I hope you don't like it!!! Think what will happen to us if we will have our flour sent to NY from Greece :)


I am not Hellenic, I am Greek.
"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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post #55 of 84
First things first. I apologize fro my confusing Hellenic and Greek. Here is the source of my confusion.

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
Main Entry: 1Hel·len·ic
Pronunciation: he-'le-nik, h&-
Function: adjective
Date: 1644
: of or relating to Greece, its people, or its language; specifically : of or relating to ancient Greek history, culture, or art before the Hellenistic period

Second things second. "Things that go bump in the night" are scarey things. :eek: The Boogie Man would most definately go bump in the night.

Third things third. I am sure that we will be able to find you a flour that will suit your baking needs. ****, we got Kansas, Montana etc. etc. We're lousy with the stuff:)
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #56 of 84

flour as i see it

AP flour can be used for most anything by adding:

Bread 1/2 apf + 1/2 high gluten

pastry 1/2 apf + cake flour

cake 3/4 apf + 1/4 starch


this is all give or take.

cake flour is ment to hold vertically, pastry horizontally and ap with limited each way and bread max each way.

this is the simple way my tiny brain functions.

Kyle, you crack me up!

I had a problem making a 2 cup h2o bread mix in my new places 6 quart mixer. here is how i fixed it= I substitued half the apf with hgf and what a happy day i had!

flour is your friend, blend with it!
bake first, ask questions later.
Oooh food, my favorite!


Professor Pastry Artswww.collin.edu
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bake first, ask questions later.
Oooh food, my favorite!


Professor Pastry Artswww.collin.edu
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post #57 of 84
He he he

I know what Hellenic means I went to Cambridge after all.

But we consider ourselves nouns and not adjectives! ;)

Seriously now. For historical reasons that have nothing to do with this thread we'd rather be called Greeks :)

Although the correct word is Hellenes and not Hellenic ,regardless if Anglosaxonic dictionaries seem to ignore that,( Funny , they use the Homeric dictionaries only when it's convenient to them...) for political reasons I'd rather be called Greek.
Just to remind to people that we have wounds that bleed.

As for the rest of your message...

It's all Greek to me :lol: :lol:

I will bring you some flour I use anyway, it will be fun to experiment with that, I guess :) :)
"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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"Muabet de Turko,kama de Grego i komer de Djidio", old sefardic proverb ( Three things worth in life: the gossip of the Turk , the bed of the Greek and the food of the Jew)
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post #58 of 84
Originally posted by Athenaeus
"we'd rather be called Greeks:)"

C'est tout finis!


M- 2 cups water means about 6 cups total flour? I think my seven QT mixer would be OK with that. It's the dough that's half that size that wraps itself around the hook an doesn't knead fully. Any thoughts there? It's the problem I was talking about on Saturday.
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
Reply
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
Reply
post #59 of 84
the extra gluten kicked it's doughy little hine into action for me. the bread dough i am making has spices, raisins and buttermilk, yeast flour, sugar and walnut oil. mmmmmmmm great with cheese.
bake first, ask questions later.
Oooh food, my favorite!


Professor Pastry Artswww.collin.edu
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bake first, ask questions later.
Oooh food, my favorite!


Professor Pastry Artswww.collin.edu
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post #60 of 84
Sounds downright tasty! Speaking of tasty and cheese and walnut(oil), ever try walnut-blue cheese bread? Very tasty!
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
Reply
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
Reply
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