Banning Bad Tippers - Page 2

>and no one would even consider not tipping out the kitchen staff, generously. <

Well, as I said before, I never could understand why any server wouln't. The places I worked (mostly in a resort area) didn't have rules about it, or a tip pool for the kitchen staff. Each server took care of the staff or didn't. I always figured that 15% of my tips was the minimum to be shared. In those days, 15% was the typical tip, so how could I not treat my support staff differently then what I expected? On a good night, I'd buy the after-work drinks as well; or at least the first round.

"Please" and "thank you" also go a long way with a group of workers who are generally underpaid and under appreciated, even though what they do is essential to a server's job.

Most servers I worked with were smart enough to follow a similar path. But there were always those who didn't. One women actually told me, when the subject came up, "I work damn hard for my tips, I'm not sharing them with a lousy dishwasher."

She dismissed with distain my suggestion that that's why my tables got bussed quickly while  hers were often piled with dirty dishes.

I know such short-sightedness sounds unbelievable. But what's unbelievable to me is the number of servers I've met through the years who echo her attitude. Incredible!

Original intention of tip used to be for paying a little extra for good service. I still maintain that to some extent--if the service is poor, I don't tip.

Don't we wish tips were unnecessary because service is always good and the wait people get paid enough to make a decent living.

George (author of What Recipes Don't Tell You)

The whole idea of banning someone because she does not tip seems a little odd to me.  It makes me wonder just what the manager is not disclosing to the media in this case and just what kind of patron this woman is.  When I worked at the cafe we had a few regulars who we honestly did not like (and yes most of them did tip but a few never would leave a cent) and would love to send to the guy down the street but we sucked it up and dealt with them. 

I tip everywhere I go.., even at McDonald's.  I know what it's like to work in this business and I want them to know that I appreciate their service. 

It should be up to the management, as a business person that would be bad practice, especially if it was a regular customer.

At a lot of the Japanese steak houses the chefs split the tip with the waitstaff.

I would probably explain customer that tipping is how the chefts and waitstaff make most of their money and that a typical minimum tip is 15% unless the service was bad.  If she still didn't leave a tip I would add it to her bill and let her know the gratuity was included, and if she felt the service was bad we could lower it or remove it.  If the service wasn't bad and she wanted it removed  I would have to make a decision whether not to serve her or give my employees a little extra if they had to serve her.

I know of a restaurant in Kansas city where a lady would come in 5 days a week and never tip.  The management didn't seem to care, as she did come in 5 days a week. 

I used to drive a cab.  It was my choice to drive a cab.  Sometimes I'd get a great tip, other times no tip.  There was a regular rider, three times a week, and I never received a tip from her except that she only used me to drive her around.  That was tip enough.

Now, maybe this lady in the restaurant ate there often enough that she felt similarly to my frequent rider: by riding frequently she was giving me adequate compensation.

Those who are servers have not been forced to take the job - it is their choice.  And one of the things that happens in the service business is sometimes you make out very well and other times you don't.  Finally, who knows what the patron's situation is.  There may be any number of reasons why she doesn't tip that may have nothing to do with the service.  The restaurant staff should just suck it up and be glad, especially in todays economic climate when many restaurants are closing, that they are working and that this woman is helping to keep the doors open.

Maybe there is another issue at hand.  Perhaps this restaurant has a difficult time with many customers not tipping.  It's suspicious to focus on just one customer if the wait staff were generally happy at the restaurant.  Maybe she was just the worst of the lot and they decided to make an example of her for the rest of the community who dines there. 

Knowing that they banned a customer for bad tipping, would you go to this restaurant now?  Would the community? 

 I wish all restaurants would just add 15% or 18% on to the cost of the meal and be done with it.  If the service isn't good, customers won't return unless the food is phenomenal.  We've been to some establishments where the manager periodically visits each table and asks if everything is ok, which I think is a practice which all managers should emulate.  In this case, I'm sure there is more to the story.  I just don't see a restaurant confronting a patron who is quiet, polite and a perfect diner in every way except for not tipping.  

Was at a restaurant last night and when the waitress brought our bill she pointed out that 18% gratuity had been added (it's their policy after 4pm she told us).  I was pleasantly surprised.  Eventhough we didn't expect it we realized that service had not been compromised at all.  And it was such a relief to not have to figure out "how much do we owe, how much should we leave, how much was service worth" and blah blah.  I really think service should be included in the bill otherwise you're trying to put a moral spin on the tip as if anyone can really decide what a server is worth.  It's just too much power, what an ego trip.

Billy, if more GMs and Chefs did that (like they did in the old days) then there'd be an exponential increase in service levels regardless. One of the reasons we have such an overall lack of good service is because there are no checks and balances except the patron's willingness to provide a tip.

I'm sorry, but all the wishful thinking in the world won't change the fact that tipping is not mandatory. It is what it's always been: a reward for good service. The only thing that has changed is the base line, from 15% to 20%.

Koukouvagia, we are never going to see eye-to-eye on this. If being able to judge a server's performance, and put a value on it means I'm on an ego trip, then so be it. But I will always decide whether or not to tip, and if so, how much. And I will not patronize a restaurant that takes that right out of my hands.

Got a question for you. You say "she pointed out that 18% gratuity had been added (it's their policy after 4pm she told us)." Are you saying that you were not told about this policy ahead of time? That it was just sprung on you after the fact? And you were good with that? Incredible! 

From where I sit there are several real problems with your experience.

1. You were robbed. There's no two ways about it. The menu said your meal would cost X and you were charged X + 18%. That's robbery, no different than if somebody approached you as you left the restaurant, stuck a gun in your eye, and demanded 18% of whatever was in your wallet.

2. The server sacrificed at least 2% of her income. You say you were happy with her performance. So if you only left the standard 20% that would be an increase in her take-home pay. If you were really happy with her service, because she'd gone that extra mile, you'd have left more than 20%. Seems to me that only the mediocre and outright poor servers would really be happy with that deal.

I'm glad you were happy with the service. But I guarantee that in the absence of other controls, such as Bill's suggestion that GMS and Chefs walk the floor, if that policy was adapted as an industry standard service would plummet even further than the abysmal levels it's already reached. The exceptions do not define the rule, they merely highlight it.

Why don;t we simply add the grat to the check like they do in Europe. It's been done this way for years. Call it a service charge or gratuity it is automatic.Keeps everyone honest. As far as the discrimanation part of the commentary, get a life, as long as they do it to all bad tippers it isn't.

Since when did 20% become standard?  Not in my book.  I always leave 15% unless the server exceeded my expectations and they hardly ever do.

I don't feel robbed at all.  It's a little more than what I would have left for tip but all in all I was happy with the service and was glad to see gratuity added to the bill.  And I don't think she sacrificed anything.  On the bill was a spot for "additional gratuity" if I wanted to leave more but like I said, 20% is pushing it for me.  That's a lot of money.

There's problems with either scenario whether it's to add gratuity to the bill or to leave it at the discretion of the customer.  Just as many people will be unhappy in either case.  I don't have a problem with gratuity being added to a bill because I grew up in Europe and spend all my summers there.  I've never experienced bad or slow service in Europe, and I've never experienced bad service here in NY where many restaurants impose gratuity on the bill.  Since I've only had good experiences why would I be against it?

I'm so tired of waiters and waitresses being seen as these poor underpaid people.  It's a lucrative job even at just 15%.  There are many many many people in varying jobs that are grossly underpaid in America and don't require tips.  I'm a teacher, and I work in Harlem dealing with some of the worst behaving children you would ever want to teach.  I make squat and I don't get so much as a thank you much less bonuses and tips.  Meanwhile my hairdresser charges me $150 for a haircut and then it's customary to tip 15-20% on top of that.  Gee and I thought my masters degree was good for something.  If I start tipping 20% now in ten years it will be up to 25% and all a server would have to do is tell me "it's customary."

KYHeirloomer, so what would you have done if you were presented a bill with gratuity added and the service was good?  How would you have handled the situation? 
Edited by Koukouvagia - 3/12/10 at 6:33am

I certainly don't make the rules, KK. And I grew up, like you, with 15% being the baseline. But the fact is, the average, nowadays, is 20%.

And I certainly have no argument with you over whether or not servers are underpaid. As I've said more than once, when I was serving I took home more than the chef. And that can still be true for good servers. Indeed, if my legs would let me I wouldn't be typing this. I'd be working front of house, somewhere, bringing in the heavy gelt.

On the bill was a spot for "additional gratuity" if I wanted to leave more

I would suggest that for most people that's a stopper. The reasoning is, "hell, I've already tipped her. What more do they want?" In short, in the real world, very few people will kick in more on top of the 18% that was just extorted from them---even if normally they'd have left more in those circumstances.

Just the opposite, in many cases. I have a friend whose son serves at an upscale place (well, upscale for Lexington). Their policy, clearly stated on the menu, is that they tack on 18% for groups larger than six.

Well, David had a large party, something like 12-15 people, that he worked alone. They were, apparently, quite pleased with him cuz they left an addional 200 bucks on the table. Everybody happy, right? Until next day, when one of them called the restaurant and complained that they didn't know about the 18%, and wouldn't have left the addional tip if they had. And insisted that it be returned.

Won't bore you with what that all led to. But it's not all that untypical, either, when people are coerced into spending their money.

KYHeirloomer, so what would you have done if you were presented a bill with gratuity added and the service was good?  How would you have handled the situation? 

That's a ticklish problem. I certainly wouldn't want to penalize the server who did a good job for me. But I wouldn't be happy about the restaurant's policy.

More than likely I would pay the bill. But I'd have a quiet chat with the manager, explaining that I was dissatisfied with their policy and why, and as a result, would not be back. And that I'd be urging my friends and relations to never dine there either.
Edited by KYHeirloomer - 3/12/10 at 3:14pm

For me, 15% is what I will automatically leave as a tip but if I was happy with the service as most of the time I am when I eat out, I will leave 20% and if the server has gone above and beyond what he/she needs to do of course I would leave more. 

When I worked at the cafe I served when I had to I had this great table come in.  The loved the fact that I was the one who made the food I was serving them and when they came up to pay, we got to chatting and the gentleman forgot to leave me a tip.  It wasn't a big deal as I've had no tippers before so I went about my day.  A few weeks later he came in, and he said to me that he was looking for me because he felt so bad he didn't leave me a tip after the great lunch they had and he gave me $30!  That was more than the meal he had originally purchased.  He even waited until I was the only one in so that the tip was all for me and not shared with the other servers.  

I just heard a piece today on NPR regarding tipping and how it's not that great of an idea (in this guy's POV). Partly, because it allows the restaurant to pay them poorly and passes the buck on the customers to make up for it.  This was just his view...I do not know enough about the professional industry to have any thoughts on it...but it was interesting to listen to.

I personally tip and would not go out to eat if I didn't have the money for a tip...it just feels wrong...for me.

This is a common viewpoint, but one that doesn't think things through.
They fail to note that if the restaurant is paying better wages the prices will increase, ultimately resulting in the customer paying about the same as the old price + tip, but with the control taken out of their hands.
I prefer the current method, it allows us, the customer, to reward or punsih poor service.

I cant say I disagree with the policy, reminds me of the stories of Marco White.

If they don't tip in our restaurant we like to take them behind the building and push there heads into the wall a few time.

Hey these guys need to tip. I know times are getting bad but my girlfriend, waitress, need the money to pay for her

auto. She has suggested using plyers to pull out their finger nail. But I think banging their head against the wall is

just fine. I know a place on the other side of town who uses water boading on non tipping patron.Something

the manager learned in Iraq. The chef has told me

it works well for them but although tips are up covers are down. He say he can't understand it. He is a great chef

and the food is great their.I think the guy who started this thread is on to something. If I put up a sign that say"

If you don't tip this could happen to you" with a picture above it showing a chef bouncing a patrons head against

the wall. Once the customers see it they will get the message and tip no matter how bad the food or service is.

It will save me time of washing their blood off the wall. I hate it when the food inspector flags us for blood on the wall.

He say he has no problem with our business practices but says the blood on the wall has to go. My chef friend

suggested water boarding the food inspector but he is too fat to fit onto the board and his head is too big for the 

bucket. My chef friend said his brother works in a ware house and can get a fork lift to pick him up and drag him

to the lake. Once there I could put a chain around his ankles and the other end would be tired

to the forks and his brother would low and raise the food inspector repeatly until he submits to my demands.

Hey got to go another customer just stiffed my girlfriend and I need to take care of it.

Tipping is optional, people shouldn't complain about not tipping if its optional. If you want tips then raise your prices and start a no tipping policy.

 

I have anecdotal evidence that this isn't always the case.  Back in the mid eighties, Michael McCarty tried a no tipping policy at his (along with Jimmy Schmidt) short lived Washington DC
restaurant. The policy didn't last for long as it seemed to leave the customers uncomfortable. Tipping has become so ingrained in our society, I suspect some of the guests thought their server was going to come after them with a butter knife as they headed for the door.

Never thought of banning a bad tipper...in our very small cafe of less than 30 seats we post our tipping policy....on two signs that every seat can see.."EXCESSIVE TIPPING PERMITTED''

The issue comes down to general stupidity of the industry.  Servers can be paid lower than minimum wage BECAUSE tipping is "expected".  The issue started because people started tipping.  The businesses decided that tips should be considered "wages" and the government agreed, allowing for servers to be paid less than minimum wage. 

 

Then there's the argument of people not tipping if the tip is part of the cost of the meal and servers not "working for the tip" and service being degraded.  Far be it from a restaurant to fire a server for poor service, but they can fire the cook for poor service.  In short, the argument makes no sense.

 

My great uncle (RIP) whom I respected deeply was a first or second generation immigrant from Germany (don't know that it matters, but point of reference) held the opinion that if a restaurant advertised a $5.99 steak, he was going for that steak and was paying $5.99 (plus tax, of course).  I see his point, especially on tv and radio ads moreso than the menu itself. 

 

However, when Taco freaking Bell puts up a tip jar, someone, somewhere has to draw the line.  The argument is so circular that it's impossible to resolve without a head or two exploding.  Tipped employees can be paid less than minimum wage because they're tipped.  Then normally untipped employees begin to think their "service" is worthy of tipping and puts out tip jars.  People start tipping, then the wages should also be lowered to sub-minimum wage.  In the end, we all would work for $2.13 (or whatever the current minimum is) per hour and tipped every time we turn around.  Doctors would make $2.13/hour and tipped based upon job performance.  Actually, I'd like to see the President (job, not person) go on that pay scale and tipping and see where that goes.  Of course, you can't tip politicians because that's bribery. 

 

If a server tells the manager he won't wait on a customer because the customer won't tip, that's standard insubordination and should be dealt with accordingly.  Receiving a tip is not a right and tipping is not a requirement.  End of story. 

 

The business can refuse service, did so, and now here we are.  If anyone is to blame, it's the same society that is outraged on either side of the argument.  After all, we made this mess. 

I agree with KYH and Gobbly.  Tipping, while generally accepted as being expected in the US, is really up to the patron.  I'm not the quickest at doing math in my head, so it's easier for me to calculate a 20% tip and that is generally what I leave when the service is decent, even though I know 15% is the norm.  But I make a point of tipping less when the service is not up to par.  I feel that leaving a 5% tip for lousy service sends more of a message than no tip at all.  To me, leaving no tip, I can be dismissed as a clueless customer, but if I make a point of leaving a sub-standard tip, I am sending a message.  Even more so when done on a card and the manager sees the tip on the receipt at the end of the night. 

 

While I think including a tip on the bill for larger groups is helpful when trying to divide the bill, and I usually see this policy stated at the bottom of the menu, I think 18% is a little presumptuous on the restaurant's part.  15% is standard, not 18%.  Unless you are 100% certain that your servers can and do consistently deliver above and beyond the standard level of service, this should be changed.  I feel it is perfectly acceptable to adjust the included tip amount up or down depending on the quality of service.

 

This all being said, I feel that many diners unfairly hold the server responsible for kitchen problems and adjust their tips to reflect this.  It's not the server's fault that my steak was overcooked or the risotto was crunchy, and while I let the server or manager know about the problem, I never make the server suffer for someone else's mistake.

 

Some of you folks who work in the industry may have a totally different, perfectly valid, point of view.  My limited food service experience (supermarket bakery and porter/grill man at a nursing home kitchen) were not tip-able situations, so my opinion is strictly from a hungry diner's perspective.

 

What I find interesting is how there is no generally known/accepted level or percentage for tipping in other industries.  How much do I tip the people who drive me to the airport, mow my lawn, deliver my take-out, clean my hotel room, etc? 

 

What about other service providers?  I used to work as a mobile electronics installer and we were frequently tipped.  (Never expected, but always a nice, well appreciated surprise that guaranteed excellent service the next time the customer came by.)  Who do you tip and how much?

It's not the server's fault that my steak was overcooked or the risotto was crunchy,

 

Absolutely correct. The question is, how does the server react when told about the overcooked steak or crunchy risotto?

 

Example: When we lived in Boston we frequented a particular seafood restaurant. One evening something went radically wrong. Whatever it was we waited an inordinate amount of time for Friend Wife's broiled lobster to be delivered. And when it was it was burned. To this day I'm not sure how you even do that, but it was.

 

When the waitress was called over and asked to return it, her reaction was, "I can't bring that back. He'll kill me."

 

Excuse me? The chef messed up a dish; you left it sitting on the pass for God knows how long; and then won't take it back?

 

See what I mean. While she certainly didn't burn the dish, she was, IMO, responsible. And her tip certainly reflected it.

Servers can be paid lower than minimum wage BECAUSE tipping is "expected". 

 

So here's a question: Do you think a good server cares one way or another how the total is achieved? Or is (s)he interested in the take-home total?

 

The fact is, any reasonably competent server will earn more than minimum wage when you look at real dollars in the pocket.

 

Minor but typical example: Lunch hour in a medium-sized city. Tables, on average, turn twice in an hour. Typical bill: $15/person. Posit: Total of six diners at the table (a couple, then turned to four office workers).

 

At 20% the server would have made $18 in tips, plus whatever the current minimum wage for servers is. Call it twenty bucks, round numbers. The minimum wage is $7.35---which means (s)he made almost three times the minimum.

 

Do you think such a server is bitching about the lower minimum wage? Or do you think (s)he would willingly give up about $12.50/hour for some theoretical economics policy?

 

OK, let's say it was a poor shift, and (s)he only averaged 10%. That would still be $9 plus the server's minimum. Eleven dollars, my friend, on bad tips.

 

The simple fact is, for any server to merely match the minimum wage, he or she has to earn a scant five bucks an hour in tips. And I submit that any server who can't do that is, by definition, a poor server.

Wow.  That's nuts.  I see exactly what you mean.  Not sure what I would do after picking my jaw up off the floor.  I'd be tempted to visit the kitchen myself.  If the server is so afraid of the chef, he must be as volatile as Ramsay.  Could make for an exciting night.   (I would hope Ramsay would never let a dried up, burnt lobster go out, even if he figured out how to burn one...)  As a manager, I'd be ashamed if I found out any client, customer, or employee felt they could not bring a problem to my attention, especially if I am the one responsible.

 

I agree with you 100% in the situation you described.  While she was not responsible for the dish, the server was responsible for the bad customer service, which would rightly be reflected in her tip.  Everyone makes mistakes and if an chef-employee/chef-business owner can't accept the fact that they might be called on one by a customer or co-worker, the chef should consider a line of work where no one will notice his or her mistakes (if you can think of one, let me know), or get good at scratching Lottery tickets.  The server clearly did not recognize the fact that at that moment, she was the "face" of the business and the entire organization was judged on her actions and attitude. 

 

It's strange how there is so much talk about the American economy changing to a service based economy, yet customer service levels have declined in recent years.  While voting with our feet/wallets is a sure way to reward good service and punish bad service, I'm not sure the loss or gain of business is always attributed to the correct factor, in this case, customer service.  Anyone can be trained to follow a set process or procedure, but what separates the good employees from the warm bodies is how they deal with situation where the process breaks down.  Are they focused on resolving the issue and keeping the customer happy, or are they afraid to take ownership of the issue, fearing reprisals for making decisions outside of their normal job range, or lack of interest (not MY job syndrome)?  I often judge vendors and employees by this criteria.  Even if the issue is not completely resolved the first time around (which can happen in my line of work), I appreciate working with people who are willing to try and resolve any issues to my satisfaction.  (I'm a firm believer that 1. It's cheaper to keep a customer you already have than it is to find a new one, and 2. Bad news/bad experiences travel faster and farther and last longer than good news and experiences.)

 

As a side note, a college I was working at recently had such poor customer service in several departments, upper management contracted with an outside firm and forced EVERY EMPLOYEE, from the president to the handyman, to take a six hour, online course on customer service.  While it did result in significant improvements, I had to chuckle at the delivery method, as one of the most frequent complaints I hear about customer service is how people hate technology-based solutions such as voice menu prompts when calling a business.  (And I'm a technologist by profession.) 

 

I guess I've been lucky never had such a reaction from a server when I complained as you did.  For the most part, my experiences have been anywhere from "I'm sorry, let me take care of that" to "I'm very sorry, we'll take care of that immediately or get you something else and take it off the bill" along with an apologetic visit from the manager.

 

Sorry for such a long post.  You hit a nerve and I'm fired up!

yet customer service levels have declined in recent years. 

 

This shouldn't come as a surprise. When people are not only willing to accept shoddy service, but reward it as well, it just trains the service providers that they don't have to be good.

 

This, and similar threads, amply demonstrate that. Look at the number of people who say they would not complain about a poorly prepared meal. And the number who say they would leave the same tip regardless of how good or bad the service is.

 

Whether you agree with them or not (obviously, I don't agree), the simple fact is they are teaching servers that neither good service nor well prepared food is necessary. After all, why work hard for 15% if you're going to get it regardless?

 

Had a case once, which I've related before, about waiting, and waiting, and waiting after our order had been taken. Finally the manager comes out to apologize for the delay, but seems our server decided, in the middle of the shift, that he'd rather be out partying with his friends. "You know," the boss complained, "this is the second time he's done that."

 

The guy just looked at me strangely when I wondered how the kid had gotten a second opportunity. The fact that he wasn't immediately fired after the first offense merely taught him that his behavior was acceptible.

If I'm not mistaken, if the $2.13/hour plus tips doesn't average out to at least minimum wage (per day, maybe --I'm going by hearsay), the owner/mgr must make up the difference.  Remember though, you're talking about a generic "restaurant".  There are still some areas where buffet type meals (with "table service") have servers that can see $0 in tips on the rationale that "I got my own food".

It depends on how hard the FOH managers come down for not getting the side work done!  

 

The real fight of course is when the line guys figure out that the servers and bartenders are bringing home more than double what the kitchen crew are paid. All while sauntering around in the pleasant air conditioned dining room, chatting with guests and thinking up new ways to write orders illegibly. I think everyone who has ever worked in a kitchen has seen a cook ticked off at a waiter send out crap, or conveniently misplace a ticket.

Tipping is a scam, and while I participate willingly--and generously--it's not without a bit of discontent.  How the responsibility of paying servers a fair wage got shirked onto the customers is beyond me.  A tip is supposed to be a casual generosity for something exceptional, not a percentage of their total anticipated income.  This nonsense about tips "enticing" servers into doing a better job is an absolute crock: hardly anyone else "works for tips," but we're all expected to do our job well or risk termination.  It's a shifty, antiquated process that does nothing but create uncertainty and stress for the server, and a lower bottom line in the payroll for the owners.