ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Food & Cooking › Thin Crust or Deep Dish
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Thin Crust or Deep Dish

post #1 of 36
3/18/10 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
I was recently watching a television programming comparing and contrasting NY-style thin crust pizza with Chicago's deep dish.  I've never thought about it much before but I realize now that I am a die-hard supporter of thin crust.

How about you?

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #2 of 36
3/18/10 at 9:24am
Thin cracker style crust, not that floppy NY stuff.
Reply
post #3 of 36
3/18/10 at 9:37am
I like both, but i mainly just get a California style,, it's a bit thicker then NY style and thinner then Chicago, but all the local places make it that way. All the good deep dish places are nowhere near my house, the same really for a REAL NY crust, so its a treat.
"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
Reply
post #4 of 36
3/18/10 at 10:01am
Well they've been doing it thin and crispy in italy since the 18th century, and they've been making 'pizza' since 997 AD. =)

In Italy it's often made with doppio zero, or a mix of normal flour and 00, so it seems to suit thin and crispy a lot more too.
Reply
post #5 of 36
3/18/10 at 12:46pm
Pizza? Yes please!
*Does not play well with Custards*

http://dotbakes.blogspot.com
Reply
post #6 of 36
3/18/10 at 12:48pm
Bagel dough makes for very good pizza.  You'd be surprised.  Or not.

BDL
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
post #7 of 36
3/18/10 at 12:55pm
     Being from the Chicago area...I could never give up stuffed.  But I do prefer a nice thin/crispy crust for "normal" pizza eating.  The NY floppy thin crust isn't that appealing to me.

  dan

Enjoy the Food!

Reply
post #8 of 36
3/18/10 at 1:00pm
Boar, I'll have to tell my DH that. He makes our bread-type items, including bagels and pizza crusts...
*Does not play well with Custards*

http://dotbakes.blogspot.com
Reply
post #9 of 36
3/18/10 at 1:03pm
I saw that show, KK, and laughed my way through it.

Having spent ten long years in the greater Chicago area I can understand their fascination with deep dish. What they call regular pizza is why. Actually, as another expat explained, my problem was thinking of it as pizza. "If you think of it as cardboard with a little sauce and some cheese," he said, "then it ain't bad."

They even cut it in little squares, rather than hefty wedges. Maybe they think pizza is supposed to be some sort of a canape?

That aside, there's really no argument. When made well, deep dish is very tasty, and can make for a deeply satisfying meal. But it most empatically is not pizza. It's a savory tart or single-crust pie. 

Pizza, anywhere else, is a flatbread with toppings, baked under very high heat. There is no side-crust, as there is with deep-dish. And pizza dough is stretched, which is what gives it its particular structure. Deep dish dough is merely pressed into the bottom and sides, and is merely a bread-like crust.

What I'm saying is that the whole thing is a non-argument, because you're talking apples and oranges.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #10 of 36
3/18/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

I...., because you're talking apples and oranges.

I like both, Oranges just don't have the crunch that an Apple has and no way you can do fresh squeezed like you can an Orange, plus when you peel an Apple it's not naturally segmented. Course when you peel an Apple it doesn't try to spit citrus juice in your eye either
"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
Reply
post #11 of 36
3/18/10 at 2:02pm
Exactly, Gunnar. They're both good. But if you call the orange colored one an "apple" you'll just confuse everyone.

And that's the point. As I said, deep-dish is a lot of things. But pizza ain't one of them.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #12 of 36
3/18/10 at 4:38pm
Thin crust or deep dish?  I'll say yes.

In general I make thinner, crispy crusts with sparse toppings, maybe 2 or 3 items other than cheese and sauce.  And the sauce could be quite understated, shall we say.  But every now and then I like a thick, monstrous slab of gooey goodness dripping down the front of my shirt.

When you cook chicken, do you cook it *exactly* the same way *every* time?

mjb.
Reply
post #13 of 36
3/18/10 at 6:27pm
Teamfat, you're describing the difference, or one of the differences, between thin- and thick-crust pizza. Neither of them are the same as Chicago deep-dish.

To make one of those, basically you take a deep baking dish or casserole. Make your dough and press it down so the bottom and sides are covered---just like making a tart, except you don't roll the dough. Then start layering the filling: sausages, and chop meat, and cheses, and sauce, and.....whatever your heart desires. Then bake until done.

Imagine if you built a lasagne inside a pie shell, but without the noodle layers. Essentially that's what a deep-dish "pizza" is.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #14 of 36
3/18/10 at 9:46pm
Have never had a "pizza" Chicago style - not sure I like the concept.  To deep, too much dough.  Different strokes for different folks.  I love a crispy base, firm, thin crust pizza.

Doesn't need a heap of ingredients, just a tasty mixing of simple items.  That does it for me. None of the cheese stuffed crust with way too much dough and too many ingredients.

Yes, this is a purist talking here.  That's just my preference and I really cannot comment on the other sort.  BTW, my father (ok I am biased) is the best pizza maker I know.  Cuz I grew up with it I guess. And he is Irish/English. Starts it right from scratch.  Tasty.
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein
 
Reply
post #15 of 36
3/19/10 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 
For what it's worth I'm not a fan of the typical ny-pizza by the slice.  They pre-bake large cheese pizzas and then when you order a slice they put your toppings on it and warm it up in the oven.  It's a bit floppy and droopy and the sauce is never very good, along with fake mozzeralla cheese.


Patsy's on the other hand is the real deal.  My mouth waters when I pass Patsy's on the street.

I agree that deep-dish is not really pizza but rather a pie.  It's very heavy and filling but I don't like the bread texture of it and the over abundance of filling (I can't consider that toppings).

Siduri, is there any other kind of pizza going on in Italy?  The parts I've visited only offered the wonderful cookie-thin crust but I hear there are other regions that have thick crust.

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #16 of 36
3/19/10 at 1:38pm
Supposedly Neapolitan pizza can be thicker than Roman style pizza (which is invariably thin and crispy), but it always seems a lot thinner and crispier than the stuff we're used to the in the US and UK.

Outside of pizzerias they do Pizza rustica or Pizza al taglio, which are baked in deep trays and cut up into slices for a quick takeaway snack. - They seem to sell Calzone in most of those places too.

Rustica and al taglio are the closest things to deep dish, which is why I don't like em much. =)
Reply
post #17 of 36
3/19/10 at 3:50pm
As a more-than-thirty-year (God help me) Chicago resident ... like, tomorrow's the First Day of Spring and we're expecting a blizzard... I cannot get very interested in the famous Chicago Deep Dish  pizza.   It's basically a loaf of bread smothered in goopy toppings.

But, when my daughter visits from Pittsburgh, we have to go to Giordano's for a Deep Dish Spinach and Garlic pizza.  Well, it ain't terrible, but only the garlic saves it. 

I took a cooking lesson some years ago from Tony Mantuano, the highly-acclaimed chef/owner of Spiagga - a lot of foodies consider it the best Italian restaurent in the city -  and he taught us a whole-wheat thin crust pizza recipe that I use when doing my own.  It's crisp like a cracker, and it's what I want under my pizza.

I'm not a very good Chicagoan, pizza-wise.

Mike
travelling gourmand
Reply
post #18 of 36
3/20/10 at 5:32am
While, technically, Chicago Deep Dish might not be "pizza" lets drop the semantics.  We call lots things by names that they really aren't.  Look at the profusion of "Martinis," or the numerous "French" terms that chefs throw about quite wrecklessly.  Personally, I love both Chicago deep dish and NY style with a nice chewy crust, or a nice wood oven baked pizza with a semi thin crust that is crisp on the outside and chewy on the inside.  What I dislike is the crack thin crust that you find all over WI and MN.  I don't really care for it, and hate it being cut into those little squares.  And I have to disagree that Deep dish is like throwing toppings on top of a loaf of bread.  I don't find deep dish overly bread like.  Sure the crust is thicker but no where near bread like, not nearly as bread like as some of the major chain pizza places, one beginning with the letter D and the other beginning with the letters PJ.
From Man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the World-Saint Arnoldus
http://www.onceachef.com/
Reply
post #19 of 36
3/20/10 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post

For what it's worth I'm not a fan of the typical ny-pizza by the slice.  They pre-bake large cheese pizzas and then when you order a slice they put your toppings on it and warm it up in the oven.  It's a bit floppy and droopy and the sauce is never very good, along with fake mozzeralla cheese.
 

You're painting a generalization with a very broad brush.  I highly recommend Evelyn Sloman's books, especially her first one, which goes into pizza in some depth and, IMO, is the pizza bible.  Patsy's is OK, but they are newcomers to the pizza business.  A bunch of young upstarts.  
Schmoozer
Reply
post #20 of 36
3/20/10 at 2:09pm
Thin crust + wood fired oven at 700 degrees = Heaven
Reply
post #21 of 36
3/20/10 at 5:52pm
Good pizza stone and a 550 oven works too bought my stone here www.bakingstone.com/index.php
Reply
post #22 of 36
3/20/10 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmoozer View Post



 

I'm not interested in books, they don't taste very good in my opinion.  But I will take recommendations on pizza joints in NYC aside from Patsy's and Grimaldi's which have the best pizza NY can offer.  I never said they were the best (or the first) in the world but when I get a craving they satisfy deliciously. 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #23 of 36
3/20/10 at 10:01pm
I with you Koukouvagia on the Patsys and Grimaldis. I grew up eating the original Patsys, lived 3 blocks away until we moved a little further downtown but we still went to Patsys for our pizza. Now living 1600 miles away in what we consider a pizza wasteland we make do with some I make here at home. Now the family loves what I make so much they don't dream of Patsys every night anymore. I found a small high heat oven that goes to 800 and it cranks out some great pies, great charring on the crust in under 2 minutes. It is very possible to make a great pizza at home, just takes time to find a dough you are happy with and time to let the stone in a regular oven heat up enough if you don't have access to a high heat pizza oven. No need for anyone to eat inferior pizza if they love to cook and are willing to spend the time experimenting.
Reply
post #24 of 36
3/21/10 at 5:27am
 I like all pizza. That includes deep dish and yes it really is pizza. It's been a while since I looked at this but  IIR deep dish pizza has historical ties to sicily.  
I think we need to clarify a few things about Pizza style. Chicago style pizza is NOT all deep dish. Not by a long shot. Chicago style pie is either deep dish which is exactly as it sounds with a single deep crust. However a LOT of Chicago pies are stuffed which have two crusts. You can be pretty darn sure the majority there consider both pizza but I think there may have been a few feuds over which is "best". Who really cares? I'm an equal opportunity pizza pie muncher. LOL
To add to the mix Detroit style is a square deep dish with thick doughy crust and the sauce on top. Detroit style pie is cut in squares. I've never seen Chicago pie cut in squares (Detroit envy?). If any one here makes it to Chicago do yourself a favor and adopt the when in Rome theory of Pizza. Over looking Lou Malnati's, Ginos East or Giordanos would be a mistake if for no other reason then to get a taste of the local flavor.
In Detroit Cloverleaf is tops but we have a new contender here called Dangood that is making a sort of hybrid Chicago pie. It has a more traditional moist crust but is thick like Chicago style. Luckily we now have some killer thin crust joints using coal fired ovens as well. Supinos down at the Eastern Market.......sigh. 
Now is that really beer in your glass or is it.........
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
Reply
post #25 of 36
3/21/10 at 6:46am
The Sicilian-style is a thick flatbread---sort of like a foccacia---bottom crust only. It has no relationship to the Chicago deep dish style, which is a pressed dough that goes up the sides as well as covering the bottom. And, yes, Sicilian is traditionally cut in squares.

I wonder if that's where the Midwestern habit of cutting thin-crust pizza into little squares comes from?

As to the stuffed pizzas, I always think of them as a calzone variation. Again, we're not talking about taste here, but, rather, nomenclature. I've eaten some really good deep dish examples, and some fantastic stuffed ones. I just have trouble attaching the word "pizza" to them.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #26 of 36
3/21/10 at 7:12am
I've seen the Sicily reference in a few articles about Detroit style pie so it could indeed be the squares. I always thought it was also about the sauce being on top of the cheese as well. The crust here is indeed thicker and more similar to foccacia than thin crust pie.
For me the only note worthy distinction with stuffed Vs deep dish is just separating the two beasts. Many seem to think Chi-town pie is strictly one or the other but both are associated with Chicago and very traditional there. 
I would disagree slightly on the crust in that not all Chicago pies have the pressed crust which results in a very dense dry dough, although many do use that method. That type of crust is certainly not my favorite. A Calzone is a totally different animal to me but hey it's all good... Literally!  
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
Reply
post #27 of 36
3/21/10 at 8:12am
but hey it's all good... Literally!  

 I keep trying to convince myself that it's not. Pizza in any form is tasteless, empty bulk, with no value whatsoever.

But, as the shape of my belly attests, I haven't convinced anyone, least of all me.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #28 of 36
3/21/10 at 9:35am
 I have accepted the fact that I'm short, fat and bald. A little pizza won't hurt.    
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
Reply
post #29 of 36
3/21/10 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post




I'm not interested in books, they don't taste very good in my opinion.  But I will take recommendations on pizza joints in NYC aside from Patsy's and Grimaldi's which have the best pizza NY can offer.  I never said they were the best (or the first) in the world but when I get a craving they satisfy deliciously. 
 

Sloman's book (The Pizza Book) is filled with great recommendations about pizza places in NYC - and elsewhere.  She includes the history of many places, and an excellent overview of pizza in the US, from its introduction to contemporary times.  She also notes, in many instances, the type of ovens and the cooking techniques used in many places, all of which adds to the possibiliuty of finding a place that you'll enjoy.  Of course, there are recipes for various crusts, tool suggestions, and a great photo of Evelyn when she was younger, before sampling all that pizza.  For those who are interested, check out The Legends of Pizza blog and interviews on the subject of pizza by Evelyn and others.
Schmoozer
Reply
post #30 of 36
3/21/10 at 12:09pm

Look at it this way, Duckfat. Pizza helps keeps you in shape.

Round is a shape, ain't it.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Food & Cooking
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Food & Cooking › Thin Crust or Deep Dish