ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Food & Cooking › Meat Stock Ingredients: What different results can be expected between veal bones and beef bones
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Meat Stock Ingredients: What different results can be expected between veal bones and beef bones

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

Some years ago I made a recipe for an excellent meat stock, and over the years have made it several times.  Lately, however, it's becoming more difficult to get the veal bones that the technique calls for (the recipe calls for both beef and veal bones), and I was wondering just what the veal bones brings to the pot.  What do I gain when using veal bones that beef bones won't give me?


Thanks!

Schmoozer
Reply
Schmoozer
Reply
post #2 of 24
Well, since it really is based on your opinion in the end, the only way to do it is test your recipe with all beef bones, and again with beef and veal bones.
post #3 of 24
Veal bones bring a rounder, fuller taste.  Beef stock has a very definite "beefy" quality.  The veal taste is richer, yet more elusive at the same time. 

BDL
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Veal bones bring a rounder, fuller taste.  Beef stock has a very definite "beefy" quality.  The veal taste is richer, yet more elusive at the same time. 

BDL
 

It's going to be a schlep to the next town, but I'll not substitute the veal bones.  Someone suggested using pig's feet or chicken wings, but I don't know if that's what I want in the stock.
Schmoozer
Reply
Schmoozer
Reply
post #5 of 24
Probably wouldn't be quite the same.  Maybe some Campbell's Chunky Clam Chowder though...

BDL
post #6 of 24
 Really depends on what your doing with the sauce but more often than not veal stock (veal bones) are the basis of most meat based sauces. I recall using beef stock mostly for soups and braises. The veal bones seem to bring more of a finess to the foundation of a sauce.
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
post #7 of 24
 My memory, if right, is that there  is much more collagen in the younger bones of veal, so that you get much more gelatin in your stock. gelatin means body in the texture of your product. a good veal stock should set solid in your refrigerator. So it is a question of both your taste and the texture you want.
post #8 of 24
 You are correct vohrtex there is more collagen. Good call out.
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
post #9 of 24
 Can you simply just add gelatin powder to get similar results?
post #10 of 24
Originally Posted by gNnairdA View Post

 Can you simply just add gelatin powder to get similar results?

No.

BDL
post #11 of 24
 Well you can and it will add the gelatinous texture but it will seriously lack depth and flavor. Typically you only add gelatin to a stock if you didn't do something right. In all my years of cooking I never once had to add gelatin to a stock for that purpose. 
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
All About Braising: The Art of Uncomplicated Cooking
Bacon (I made)
(26 photos)
Reply
post #12 of 24
sorry I didn't phrase that right, but what I meant was when making a stock/ broth with parts that has a lower levels of collagen but still with lots of flavor and adding the gelatin to give it its "body".
post #13 of 24
Beef bones are nice and beefy in a stock to be sure; veal bones give it a refinement that just isn't there unless you do use them.    I'd say it's worth the trip but make sure you have a lot of time free to make a lot and stock (pun intended) up on your beef/veal stock.   Buy as much as you can - freeze them even in portions if you don't have time on the day for later use.  The more bones, the more gelatintinous the end product,  Same with any bone stock.  Have tried to make chicken stock without bones before...blecch.  Didn't use gelatin to gel it - just fed it to the dog.  It tasted ok, but was not what I wanted.

Love it when the stock comes out of the fridge for getting the fat cap off, and the stock wobbles around but only just a little.  You just know it's going to taste good.
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by gNnairdA View Post

sorry I didn't phrase that right, but what I meant was when making a stock/ broth with parts that has a lower levels of collagen but still with lots of flavor and adding the gelatin to give it its "body".
 

Absolutely you can.  But collagen provides a lot of flavor when it breaks down into gelatin.  If you can find a way to get identical flavor, adding gelatin can give you identical "body" as its exactly the same stuff that would be forming from bones.  Veal stock is ancient compared to modern gelatin sheets or packets, If the reason veal bones are being used over beef is just for the gelatin I wouldn't be surprised.
Edited by benway - 3/23/10 at 11:05am
post #15 of 24
What, they bring completely different flavors I don't know anybody that uses veal bones in a beef stock just for the collagen. Over the summer, I got to go to a 4 1/2 star restaurant and work there and see what it's like in a professional kitchen. My dad is good friends with the owner, and I got to make stock. I tasted beef stock and veal stock and they're way different. The only reason I use gelatin is for microfiltration which is my favorite way of making stock
post #16 of 24
I would have thought that veal stock would give a more gelatenous mouthfeel over beef stock.  Might I also add that for the first time I cooked, that is, prepared boiled pigs feet with the usual bouquet garni and veggies.  And the chilled product it yielded gave a veeeeeery clear and perhaps praisworthy gel or aspic (unclarified, of course) and the mouthfeel was thick.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #17 of 24
The big difference between veal stock and beef stock isn't the amount of collagen any more than the big difference between fish stock and chicken stock is the color.

BDL
post #18 of 24
Although I don't get the chance to frequent them much, when I go to a high end restaurant, and a dish includes "veal jus" - I'm in.  There's just a certain character to it that nothing else can mimick.

Beef stock - l enjoy it for its depth on its own, or add the veal for an extra treat, basically.   At many of our family's weddings (Latvian cooking) we have had many excellent beef consommes in a teacup as an app. - I suspect there may have been veal in there too.  Just a cup of consomme - no breadsticks, garnishes, etc.  beautiful start to a meal. 

As for a good chicken stock - same thing,  It's gotta be done well, but when it is- heaven.  Golden, rich - so tasty. 

Fish stock - please don't cook it too long.
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Probably wouldn't be quite the same.  Maybe some Campbell's Chunky Clam Chowder though...

BDL
 

I didn't realize Campbell's made a chunky chowder.  That sounds SUPER!
Schmoozer
Reply
Schmoozer
Reply
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benway View Post

 But collagen provides a lot of flavor when it breaks down into gelatin. 
 

Hmmm ... I didn't realize that collagen and gelatin added flavor.  I thought that they were essentially flavorless, and that they added texture and mouth feelk, and that flavor came from the meat attached to the bones and other aspects of the ingredient.
Schmoozer
Reply
Schmoozer
Reply
post #21 of 24
Hi Schmoozer,

You wrote:
I didn't realize that collagen and gelatin added flavor.  I thought that they were essentially flavorless, and that they added texture and mouth feelk, and that flavor came from the meat attached to the bones and other aspects of the ingredient.

You're substantially right. But in fairness to Benway, his statement isn't completely wrong.  Mouthfeel goes a little way towards influencing the subjective experience of "flavor." 

As I understand it, the undrlying question in the OP went to the differences between beef, veal and beef-veal stocks in terms of whether they can be substituted for one another for sauce making purposes.  

You can make any sauce with one that you could make with any of the others; but they will taste different. 

On the other hand, there are lots of things you can do to equalize mouthfeel and texture: reduction, starch thickening, structuring with tomato paste, butter mounting, and other techniques.  But gelatin is very seldom added to create mouthfeel or to structure a sauce.

Similarly, soups, with the exception of things like madrilenes, are seldom (more like never) enriched with boxed gelatin. 

The subject is interesting, but In terms of the original question its a wild tangent.

BDL 
Edited by boar_d_laze - 3/27/10 at 9:07am
post #22 of 24
.

Similarly, soups, with the exception of things like madrilenes, are seldom (more like never) enriched with boxed gelatin. 

The subject is interesting, but In terms of the original question its a wild tangent.

BDL 

 

Now look here - stop making me Wiki things like "madrilene" amd yes it is OT.  Have learnt a new word. oh no.
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
post #23 of 24
DC,

Pardon my French.

BDL
post #24 of 24
BDL,

Merci Boucoup,

DC
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Food & Cooking
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Food & Cooking › Meat Stock Ingredients: What different results can be expected between veal bones and beef bones