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How do you make jus de veau, jus de veau lié, demi-glace?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
I didn't want to hi-jack the other "stock" thread, but some comments prompted me to start a new thread. I'm getting a LOT of entirely conflicting advice/suggestions from all the articles, posts, and books. My guess is techniques have evolved, and in some cases it has evolved in different directions depending who you ask.

1) Veal Stock (or Veal+Beef Stock)
Should stock have meat? Some say stock is bones only. Some say if you don't put any meat in there it won't have much flavor. What is your vote: meat or no meat? 

2) Jus de Veau
Do you start the process over, sauteeing some aromatic vegetables and veal meat in a pot, then covering with veal stock? Then what, simmer for a while? Reduce? What kind of veal meat is used? 

3) Jus de Veau lié

Apparently this was used much more in the past, and the jus de veau was thickened with potato starch (at least in France). But it is my understanding that more and more chefs prefer to avoid thickeners of all kinds, and favor reduction instead to concentrate flavors while getting the desired texture. Is that correct? Do chefs nowadays use reduced Jus de veau, rather than Jus de veau lié?

4) Demi-glace

Is Demi-glace simply reduced stock? Or reduced Jus de Veau? In the case where you use meat in your stock, can you make Demi-glace by just reducing the stock?

5) Making a pan sauce
When making a pan sauce, do you use Jus de Veau or Demi-glace? Is the difference just the amount of reduction? 
post #2 of 15
Jus De Veau- Where I study, for this we do it as you say, saute veg, roast/saute veal meat (shin & ribs) then simmer for a few hours

Jus De Veau Lie- this is the same as above but thickened with cornstarch, arrowroot, or something similar

Demi Glace- This is equal parts sauce espagnole** and veal stock, this is then reduced by half, Although I dont think anyone makes it like that anymore, alot of people just reduce stock right down then call it demi.

Sauce Espagnole

Quote:Wiki

The basic method of making espagnole is to prepare a very dark brown roux, to which veal stock or water is added, along with browned bones, pieces of beef, vegetables, and various seasonings. This blend is allowed to slowly reduce while being frequently skimmed. The classical recipe calls for additional veal stock to be added as the liquid gradually reduces but today water is generally used instead. Tomato paste or pureed tomatoes are added towards the end of the process, and the sauce is further reduced
 


As for chefs preferring reduction to artificial thickening, where I work we thicken sauces just by reduction

We buy in bags of 1/3rd reduction of veal stock and reduce that with aromats/flavorings until almost syrupy which is about another 1/3rd of its volume.
 
hope this helps
Jordy

post #3 of 15
Quote:
1) Veal Stock (or Veal+Beef Stock)
Should stock have meat? Some say stock is bones only. Some say if you don't put any meat in there it won't have much flavor. What is your vote: meat or no meat?

Can go either way; but it's your call, not mine.  Meat makes the whole process go a lot faster and does add some richness.  If you have it, why not use it?  Veal's so expensive though, one likes to work as economically as possible.

Quote:

2) Jus de Veau
Do you start the process over, sauteeing some aromatic vegetables and veal meat in a pot, then covering with veal stock? Then what, simmer for a while? Reduce? What kind of veal meat is used? 

3) Jus de Veau lié

Apparently this was used much more in the past, and the jus de veau was thickened with potato starch (at least in France). But it is my understanding that more and more chefs prefer to avoid thickeners of all kinds, and favor reduction instead to concentrate flavors while getting the desired texture. Is that correct? Do chefs nowadays use reduced Jus de veau, rather than Jus de veau lié?

I've only ever done this as a single process.  Jus de veau lie is sort of the sophisticated version of espagnole for those who think espagnole is trop corse (pardon my bad French). 

The modern trend (since cuisines gourmand and nouvelle anyway) is to forego either in favor of a straight reduction -- what Julia Child called a "semi-demi glace; but, more accurately could be called a less-reduced glace de viande.  Either way, the trend for the past forty years or so is to forego the second round of aromatics, tomato stock and starch and just move on to the daughter sauces after reduction.

Personally, I have no brief against espagnole as a sauce mere, and do use it.  It suits my culinary "ideology."  I like to have one star on the plate, surrounded by several supporting players.  I'd rather the star be the meat than the sauce, so I take advantage of the lesser clarity and intensity of an espagnole compared to a straight reduction. 

I'm not sure there's really a difference between jus de veau and jus de veau lie; if there is, I'm not sure where in the process the first becomes the second.  You'll have to find someone with more classical grounding.  Cape Chef or Suzanne perhaps.

They're all valid culinary viewpoints.  You have to understand what you're looking for in terms of flavor intensity, clarity, etc., then go after it.

Quote:

4) Demi-glace
Is Demi-glace simply reduced stock? Or reduced Jus de Veau? In the case where you use meat in your stock, can you make Demi-glace by just reducing the stock?

As a practical matter, most modern cooks working the high end of French and International Cuisines would go with a straight reduction.  Classically, the answer is "no, demi comes from espagnole.  A demi made from jus de veau lie sort of splits the difference.

Quote:
5) Making a pan sauce
When making a pan sauce, do you use Jus de Veau or Demi-glace? Is the difference just the amount of reduction?

If the "you" in the question is me personally, than I make pan reductions with beef stock (which I almost always have in hand), demi, or occasionally veal or brown stock, or espagnole (but very rarely). I don't ever make jus de veau, so it's never handy. 

If "you" is generic, the answer isn't. That is, it depends on the individual. 

Jus de veau lie is essentially the same animal as an espagnole.  Both need to be reduced, but only following the addition of straight stock, to become a demi.  Although, as I said, you can go to what's currently called demi straight from stock via reduction.

In the contemporary high-end kitchen, a straight reduction is so much more popular than working through a sauce mere, it's practically the only way.

Great questions by the way,
BDL
What were we talking about?
 
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What were we talking about?
 
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post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Can go either way; but it's your call, not mine.  Meat makes the whole process go a lot faster and does add some richness.  If you have it, why not use it?  Veal's so expensive though, one likes to work as economically as possible.

The other day I asked a 2 michelin star chef. He said they mainly use Veal (80 to 90%) and complete with beef shanks for the meat flavor without the cost of the veal.

Quote:
I'm not sure there's really a difference between jus de veau and jus de veau lie; if there is, I'm not sure where in the process the first becomes the second.

The liaison being the starch used to thicken the jus, the difference I make is that jus de veau is simply a reduced jus, while jus lié is also thickened with some kind of starch: potato or corn starch, or roux etc... which from my understanding is used less and less in modern cookery.

Thanks for all your answers, always a great source of info BDL! The "You" in my questions was addressed to all of you on this board, including you, with the goal of having several opinions and getting to understand how each one does his thing.

I've personally made veal/beef stock very corsé (very little water used) so it's pretty much already a demi-glace (the modern reduced stock definition, not the classic espagnole+fond etc...), then use that for my pan sauces, which turn out very good if I may say so, now for me it's a matter of finding the correct amount of reduction to get the desired consistency, and learning to monter au beurre to get the right gloss, shine and richness. Which I'm slowly getting better at. The last one I made was an almost-bordelaise (without the bone marrow), not sure if it has a name: deglaze the sucs with shallots, then red wine, reduce, then demi, reduce, then monté au beurre. It was delicious even though I didn't take the time to strain the shallots, just served it "rustic" with shallots and all. 

I've never tried a double stock or jus de veau, and wondering if it's worth the trouble for a home cook. I will probably try at least once to see how much more flavor I'm getting.

Quote:
Great questions by the way
And great answers. Thank you for them.
post #5 of 15
You should check out the book Sauces by Hanes Peterson, it took me about 3 weeks to finish, and I learned ALOT. From what I know, jus de veau lie, as said above, uses a laison( thickener, hold together) while the other is simply reduced. For a demi glace, 10 quarts of stock brings about 3 quarts of demi glace, depending on desired consistency. After finishing the book( about 2 weeks ago) the first thing I tried was making a glace. I have so much left, and I use it in pan sauces all the time, you only need about a tbsp. He doesn't use a demi glace in his recipes for pan sauces, rather he uses a glace, which is now what I use.
post #6 of 15
Thread Starter 
Thanks mgchef. So if you use a glace to make sauce, do you dilute it with some other liquid? Isn't it too thick even once melted? I've never tried making or working with glace. I can see how advantageous it would be storage wise (both for storage space and storage length concerns).
post #7 of 15
Yea, you dilute it. Saute your meat, and once you have the sucs, saute in some onions, deglaze with a bit of wine add some glace de viande( meat glace) and add some cream until you get desired consistency. Btw, do you speak french?
post #8 of 15
Thread Starter 
Oui je speak French (I am French).

Thanks mgchef. So you don't really dilute it apart from adding your wine and your cream. I suppose you need less reduction on the cream as you would if you used demi, and that's where the dilution comes from.
post #9 of 15
Yea, so don't reduce your sauce to much, it will be pretty thick and rich. I speak english, german, and swiss, and I'm taking a french class at my school right now, it'd be good to practice.
post #10 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgchef View Post

I speak english, german, and swiss

Which kind of Swiss do you speak then?
post #11 of 15
swiss-german. Swiss- german and german are different though
post #12 of 15
You know each of those should have their own thread right?
post #13 of 15
This terminology has gotten all mucked up by the move away from roux and other thickeners. A few points are matters of principle, and the rest is what Chef (whoever he might be) says here and now.

Good stock really ought to include some meat. The reason is that if you don't, you'll get more texture than flavor, and when you reduce enough to get the flavor you'll have a sticky texture. I'm no 3-star chef, but my opinion is that a fairly small amount of meat added to a lot of bone will resolve this problem, and that in this context the difference between beef and veal, and between the various cuts of whichever, will be trivial. For that matter, you can use scads of veal bones and a little veal meat, and "flesh" that out, as it were, with a little turkey meat -- you'd be surprised, it's completely unidentifiable in this context.

Glace de viande is just carefully reduced stock, so reduced in fact that there is no water in it whatsoever. In the pot, hot, it should be consistency of honey or syrup. Watch out -- it scorches very fast. Pour it, ideally, into a heat-proof silicone bowl. Let cool, refrigerate, then turn it out. Cut into cubes and refrigerate uncovered. There will still be trace moisture in it, but after a day or so there won't be, and the cubes will keep pretty much forever. Some people put a little layer of rice on the bottom to absorb moisture, but I haven't found this necessary. Glace must be diluted, of course, because it has no water. James Peterson's Sauces gives explanations for most stock-based sauces such that you can use glace instead.

Demi-glace seems to me largely on its way out these days. It's a bit of a dinosaur, really. In the grand old days, it had its own flavor, including the roux and other things like sherry or madeira, but nowadays it's just half-reduced glace de viande. Why bother? It's less stable, and more finicky in flavoring. If you use lots of it, i.e. on a regular basis, it has its uses, because you can pour it in with flavorings cooked however and soon you will have the basis for a fine sauce -- but remember, you must still simmer it gently for some time, skimming as necessary, and then in the end strain it very fine.

For me, I would prefer to return the term jus to its origin in the glace deposited on the base of a pan and the still-melted jus left from roasting and such. Now that nobody is willing to use starches, that seems to me a more honest way to use the terms.
post #14 of 15
That's because starches lessen the amount of flavor that we percieve. And a glace still has moisture just not much. But I use glace's not demi glace's.
post #15 of 15

Chris,

 

I am glad you raised this point about the origin of jus. In any other stock than veal the correct words are used. As soon as we speak of veal, we all turn to jus.

 

The way I learned it is that you start with a fond, then reduce to bouillon, fumet, extrait and finally glace. A jus is actually called Jus de deglacage which is made by deglazing a pan after roasting.

 

Wouter

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