French bread a bit too heavy

your recipe seems ok-I use grams but did a rough conversion and it seems all right.

I have made baguettes for many years and I think the problem lies with your method.

Base temperature is important i.e. - temp of room + temp flour + temp water = 56 celcius. If you have a thermometer, take the temperature of the room and the flour, add these together and take away from 56 (celcius). The answer you get will be the temperature that your water should be at.

try this method:
  
  with a dough hook, mix all ingredients in a mixer for 5 minutes on low speed (you can hold back about 50g of water-if you think you will need it, add it)

  after 5 minutes, increase to 2nd speed/ medium speed for an additional 7 minutes.
  
remove dough from bowl and place on floured lightly surface, dust top of dough with flour and cover lighlty with plastic sheet.
 
after 45 minutes or so. weigh and cut your dough. 

leave rest 15 minutes before  shaping
 
shape and leave in tray/tapis, lighlty cover with flour, cover with plastic sheet and leave to rise 
 
Have pan of water in the oven in advance so that when you place your bread  inside, it is already steaming.  The steam helps develop a beautiful crust.
 
slash bread just before putting in oven. (your oven temps seem ok) 

for dough of 350g,  20 to 25 minutes  should be enough time.  Your bread should 'sing' when you take it out of the oven. (you will hear a crackle noise)
 
good luck

More water is needed, around 1/2C for 3 1/2C flour.

But did you try changing your method?

There is a lot of starting and stopping involved in your method and it could be contributing to the problem.

when you are shaping the dough, you flatten the dough with the heel or your hand- flattening out any bubbles, this, among other things, gives the bread its uniform shape, you don't want big blisters deforming the appearance of your bread.

Hi Peter,

By and large your first post reads like "How to Bake Bread the Right Way," and I've been scratching my head ever since you put it up. 

Based on your recipe, it seems to me that your dough is properly hydrated -- if a bit on the high side -- for a baguette. 

When using a machine as a mixer, its power can put together a dough that wouldn't come together easily by hand.  It cuts you off from your first two metrics -- "touch" and time.  That said, obviously you can use a machine -- but you want to have a pretty good idea of where you're going.  

Regular artisanal loaf French bread is usually hydrated to around 65%, while baguettes are made slacker, usually in the 70 - 75% range.  The way to get a rough calculus is to assume each cup of flour weighs 4.5 oz and each ounce of water weighs (you'll never guess) an ounce.   The weight of flour is defined as 100%, and the weight of the other ingredients are calculated comparatively.

3-1/2 cups of flour = 13.5 ounces.  1-1/4 cups water =10 oz.  10 / 13.5  =   74%. 

It's possible that with this recipe in particular the amount of hydration may be holding you back, but since you say that you've tried a bunch of recipes and always have the density problem it doesn't seem likely that's number one on hit parade.

Also, in your description of kneading you haven't described sticking as a problem -- so I think you've got a handle on working a fairly slack dough. 

Also, props to Cakeface who is no doubt twice the baker I am, but as long as you're gettng appropriate volume of rise within a reasonable time your proofing temperatures or the little stops and starts in your technique probably aren't at issue.  Commercial baking is a different proposition which demands a lot of loaf to loaf consistency throughout the process.  But home baking is more about consistent excellence.  It doesn't matter if one batch took longer or tastes slightly different, as long as they're good.

Okay.  So much for what's (probably) not going on.

You brought up handling in general and your punch down technique in particular.  That's the first thing with which to muck about.  

What you want to do with deflation -- whether at punch down or formatin -- is to collapse all the bubbles, and expel all of the carbon dioxide.  Just as important is what you don't want to do, and that's crush the bubbles.  You want as many as possible so that when the dough is baked into bread, they'll swell as the hot air expands, creating an open texture.  

The trend is to deflate using a technique called "French fold," (a variation of "letter folding") between proofs. 

After the rise(s) remove your dough from the bowl, hold it by an edge a few inches over the board, and let the dough's weight stretch it.  Shuffle your hands along the edge so the dough is stretched evenly.  Lay it on the board and stretch it into a square. 

Next, fold it like a letter as follows:  Fold one side over at the 1/3 point, so 2/3 of the dough is covered.  Fold the remaining 1/3 over.   Then turn the long narrow rectangle of dough 90* (this is the French part), and do the same thing.  That is, 1/3 over to cover the middle 1/3, then the remaining 1/3 over that.  You end up with a (roughly) cube shape hunk of dough.  Then, back in the bowl and proof. 

Notice the feel of weight to the dough as you work it.  If you fold properly, the dough will continue to feel light and airy as you work it.  If it starts to feel heavy, that's a sign that you may be working it too much.

You've described the "pull down" technique as your first step in formation.  It may not be the only good way to go about it, but it's a good way and my way too. Again, you want to be careful that you don't crush the dough.  And again, you want to retain a "light" feeling as you handle the dough.

With pull down you want to get a lot of "surface tension" on the skin of the dough.  That's what helps the loaf hold its shape as it bakes and rise up rather than flatten out.  If you're not getting a tight skin, that's part of your problem.  Learning to get a tight skin is one of the hardest things for most people to learn.

Your formation technique -- pat into oblongs -- is very gentle.  There are more efficient ways to do it, but as long as you maintain the tight skin throughout formation you're jake.  If the skin of your loaves if flaccid, that's at least part of your problem.

After your loaves are formed you don't want to proof to a full doubling.  You want to go about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way in order to encourage "oven spring."  

Sorry to be so prolix but it's a lot of ground to cover,  Lots to think about.  Let me know if any of this resonates.

BDL 
Edited by boar_d_laze - 4/5/10 at 11:57am

Allow the dough to rise for about an hour.  Then, DON'T PUNCH DOWN AND DESTROY BUBBLES.  Nope, just do what's called a french fold followed by resting period of about 30-40 minutes at room temp.  Repeat the combined f.f. and rest period two or three more times before final proofing.

27C  ! - My God, its like being in a proofing cabinet! 

Base temperature is not a new concept, it is really important, especially in commercial kitchens where, as BDL said, consistency is of the upmost importance.

As you have seen, your room temperature is high, so base temperature would be an important factor when making bread in those conditions.

There are alot of baking books out there but few will mention base temperatures.  In my opinion most of these books are geared towards instant results-the methods and recipes are over simplified and rushed.  And I must admit, in my previous answer to you-I over simplified matters by giving you standard proof times, but these too depend on temperature. (but the above times should be ok for your conditions-give or take) 

But so much of bread making comes from experience - the look and feel of the dough-it can be difficult to describe in words-or even pictures, so it can be tempting to give a simplified method.

I was wondering if your flour is contributing to the heavy results.  I was showing a friend in Spain how to make bread- he had already decanted the flour into a drum, but he assured me i was strong flour- I don't know if i truly was but the results were as you describe-good but with a heavy texture-totally different from how it should have been. Maybe play aound with other strong flours on the market- (in commercial kitchens we use T65  or T55- this is a French classification)

(By the way-just to make things more complicated-base temperatures are different for different breads)

This is a great help, particularly cakeface's description; I had similar problems with French breads and next time I am going to follow your method to the dot. My French breads are very good but not French breads: not really heavy but not light and chewy enough.
George (Author of What Recipes Don't Tell You)

56 deg C seems awfully warm. Please reconfirm this number, Cakeface.

hi Gerdosh. 

56 seems high because the it is the addition of the three temperatures-this does not mean that when you put your ingredients together that the finall dough temperature will be 56C-it is just a means of working out the ideal water temperature.  Different doughs have different base temperature- rye for example is 65C.

After mixing, you will probably find that your dough temperature is in the range of between  25-27C (this is called dough temperature) .

very glad you found my previous post useful, if you have any other questions, let me know

Peter, visit a website called The Fresh Loaf.  The ff involved stretching the dough slightly into a rectangle and folding it in thirds both ways.  In my eyes my 6C loaf requires 1 hour of work spread out over 5 or 6 hours total.  And that amount of time includes 3 or 4 french folds with appropriate rest periods in between.  One shouldn't rush bread making and baking.

Edited by cakeface - 4/7/10 at 11:18am

I'm afraid you're getting a lot of information that's coming so fast it's confusing and somewhat contradictory.  You may want to listen to one of us at a time. 

For an overview of a more efficient way to form a loaf, read this.  The piece is written about batards rather than baguettes going into a French pan, but the process is similar. 

Remember, you want a very tight skin (lots of "surface tension") on the formed loaf.  In your case, you want to form your loaves in one step rather than breaking it into two with a 10 minute rest in between.  (A good thing my friend, as your technique is already broken up into too many steps with too many rests.)  If you end up with a seam, just pinch it shut the best you can -- eventually it will end up on the bottom.   

With his multiple French folds, kokopuffs is referring to a technique called "autolysis."  As a practical matter, "autolysis" means allowing the dough to resting the dough after mixing so it hydrates evenly.  Autolysis comes before kneading, and if done in multiples as kokopuffs suggests, is usually used to make very slack doughs feel stiffer and easier to knead. In your case, since you don't seem to have any trouble kneading, the 10 minute rest between mixing and kneading may be all the autolysis you need.   

Sometimes multiple autolysis periods with French folds in between is done instead of kneading.  I believe that's kokopuff's preferred technique, but it is not one I favor because kneading adds to "chew."   

Just to be clear, I recommended the French fold instead of a "punch down" after the first proof (following kneading), as a way of preserving the bubble structure in the dough so it eventually bakes light and airy.   

Unlike cakeface, I recommend three rises.  The first comes after kneading, followed by a second before formation, and a third after formation.  Ideally, the third should be "retarded" -- that is done over night in the refrigerator -- but that's not absolutely necessary.  The multiple rise technique develops better flavor, a retarded third rise does even more.  

You've mentioned "blisters."  If you mean you're getting a substantial hole directly under the top crust -- it's a condition commonly called "flying crust."  It comes about as a result of the top of the loaf rising differently than the bottom during proofing -- which is then exacerbated during the bake.   The best solution for baguettes is to set the loaf upside down for most of the proofing period between formation and baking, then turn it over, and let it proof for 10 minutes more so before it goes into the oven.   If you do have a seam as a result of formation, that means starting the proof seam side up, and finishing seam down.

BDL

My goal for the 3 ff's is to 'tighten' the dough (think: surface tension) and not to achieve some sort of 'chewy' quality.  On the contrary I'd like getting a loaf more tender than what I'm currently achieving.

Here's my procedure:

1. Make poolish
2. After 6-9 hours, mix in remaining ingredients
3. Optional Autolyse for 30-40 minutes
4. Knead half a dozen times by lifting and flipping/rolling the dough over and onto itself
5. Initial rise: allow to rise for 1 hour
6. FF and rest period for 30-40 minutes
7. Repeat step 6 two or three more times
8. Roll into a boule (using the forearms) and allow to rest 10-20 minutes
9. Final shape and final rise (for 20-50 minutes)
10. Oven bake

Edited by kokopuffs - 4/8/10 at 5:06pm

A lighter loaf is easily achieved using all purpose flour that's lower in protein than 'bread' flour.  AP = 11.7% protein give or take whereas Bread Flour = 12.5% - 12.7% protein.

Thanks! That clarifies it. At 56 degrees dough temp the yeast cells are ready perish.
George

My dought rises at room temperature that ranges from 65 to 72F.

Koko,

This is getting confusing.  you wrote: 
The 56 thing wasn't 56F but 56C, and not room temp but water temp (to facilitate the rise).   

BDL

Let me clarify.  Water temp = 101-105F with ambient temperatures as previously posted.

This is getting confusing!  What I was suggesting was, to find out the ideal temperature of the water using 'base temperature' calculations.  For this dough, I suggested a base tempterature of 56 Celcius/Centigrade. 

that is-

   room temperature + flour temperature + water temperature =56
if for examle room temperature is 24 and flour temperature is  20

then    24 + 20 +  water temperature = 56
then    water temperature =  56 - 44
then   water temperature = 12 Celcius

As I was saying, this does not mean the actual dough is at this temperature-it is just a means of calculating the ideal temperature of the water so that any temperature variations can be controlled to ensure consistancy.  After mixing the actual dough temperature for this type of  bread would usually be at about 25 Celcius.

I think that it's a version of the french fold followed by rolling the dough into a baguette sized loaf.

Peter, the method you describe is essentially the same method I described in post 2 of this thread- personally I think it works best for your type of recipe.

what he is describing in the quote above is the shaping of the dough in to a baguette form-these steps should not be confused with the folding/punch down/knockback. 

Shaping is essential to get a smooth, even baguette- and a little bit of pressure is required

if you would like I can take and then upload some pictures of the steps involved in shaping a baguette,and send them to you - if you think it would help

edit-had to edit this-terrible spelling and grammar.
Edited by cakeface - 4/11/10 at 7:59am

right so, took some pictures today going to  try send them to you now, let me know if you get them
Edited by cakeface - 4/11/10 at 6:18pm