I'm a beginning culinary student and don't know much about knifes. Will Shun knifes be a good choice to get me through school and perhaps use in my first few jobs?
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- phatch
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- Zane
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If I were a professional chef would Shun be a good knife to use?
- phatch
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- Zane
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Alright, thank you.
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The Classics are made with a kind of three layer construction called san-mai. Strictly translated that means, "three layers." The outer layers (called jigane) are soft, stainless-steel made in a "Damascus" pattern. The inner layer (hagane) is an alloy called VG-10. Because the pattern itself is made with a single type soft stainless it is very susceptible to scratching, and the pattern subsequently fading.
Note, no matter what the pattern looks like san mai knives are not "true Damascus." The entire blade of a knife made by real Damascus construction, outside, edge and all, is made from a single piece of metal -- which itself was created by repeatingly folding two or more separate types of steel.
Note also, despite Shun's and Shun retailers' claims, the Damascus patterning does not do anything to improve knife performance. It does not make the knife easier to sharpen, stronger, less sticky or anything else other than making the knife prettier (if you like that sort of thing).
The hagane (core) of the knife is VG-10 hagane. The hagane is where the edge lives. VG-10 has very good edge characteristics; and is one of the better, stainless knife alloys. So, that's certainly a strong point.
Unfortunately, the chef's knives are made with a lot of "belly" and have a very high point. The belly is even more exaggerated than typical German knives. People with good skills tend to find German profiles more awkward and less agile than French profiles (most Japanese chef's knives are French profile).
Perhaps Shun's best point is their high level of fit and finish.
The handle is a simple "D" shape. They are not uncommon in inexpensive wa (Asian) handled Japanese knives, while octagonal handles to dominate the higher hand. Many people, especially those who don't have trained grips, find the Shun D very comfortable.
In your position I'd probably hold off on purchasing anything as expensive a Shun. For one thing, once you develop some serious skills you probably won't be interested in it anyway. If you want VG-10, you're probably better off with a JCK Kakayagi.
Bottom Line: Because of the high quality VG-10 hagane, it's a better knife than a mass produced German, but otherwise... not a good choice.
BDL
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- boar_d_laze
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I wrote something about Shun handles favoring untrained grips. Is that true for you? Do you pinch grip yet?
Offhand, my suggestion would be a set which includes the following:
- Very good, stainless chef's knife/gyuto (Kakayagi VG-10? Kakayagi "wa"? MAC? Togiharu G-1?) -- I want to figure out whether you want or need a super-comfy handle, or whether you can get by with "Japanse normal." which are a little thinner and shorter than, say, a Wusthof. I'm loathe to suggest a true wa handled knife -- but that might be the way to go.
- Very good slicer (Misono Sweden?) -- even though you won't use this as much as your petty you want something you can keep incredibly sharp not just for carving but for portioning fish. The better your technique the more you use a slicer. If you can live with carbon (as opposed to stainless) you can really increase bang for the buck.
- Decent, inespensive boning knife (Forschner Fibrox) -- People who don't know how to cut think boning knives are incredibly useful and that you need one to take a chicken apart. In truth, someone who does a lot of butchering probably needs a selection; but for most of us -- even in professional kitchens -- a petty is better and easier for most things. On the other hand, most schools do require them.
- Good to very good "petty" (Still thinking)-- Most schools don't require these, so you may want to put the purchase off. This shape is fairly new as a standard within a pro's set. It hasn't caught on completely -- but is very popular with the same sort of person who's moved on to Japanese knifes. It looks like a large paring knife -- but really it's the knife you use for almost everything your chef's is too long for. They are incredibly useful.
- Decent, inexpensive, bread knife (Forschner Rosewood)-- Good for pastry work as well as bread.
- Inexpensive small paring knife (couteau office) for garde manger (Forschner Rosewood) -- School will make you use a paring knife when you'll probably want to use a petty. For a lot of reasons it's not worth investing in an expensive paring knife -- certainly not now.
- Inexpensive birds's beak paring knife for tourne (Forschner Fibrox, I don't belive Rosewood is still available in a bec d'oiseau) -- The shape helps. Buy cheap, they're difficult to sharpen. You want something cheap enough to throw away when difficult becomes impossible.
Forschner Rosewood and Fibrox are good choices for all the inexpensive knives. They're well made, comfortable and take an edge easily (but lose it quickly). There are other choices almost or just as good, like F. Dick Eurocut, but they tend to be not as easily available. Also, the Rosewood series handle is very nice.
You're going to need a waterstone based sharpening kit. A kit matching the quality of the good knives in your kit isn't going to be cheap. Including a steel (aka rod-hone -- which, all things considered, should probably be ceramic), we're looking at $150 minimum for the kit, but we can do barely adequate for half of that. Cheaper is only possible by restricting the number of surfaces and consistency and quality of the stones. However, your student years are the exact right time to learn to profile and polish as well as to sharpen.
If we have to fit your sharpening kit into your $800 budget, it's a good idea to know it before falling in love with any particular knives.
Now is the time to accept the idea that sharpness is everything. It doesn't make sense to buy a good knife without a realistic plan to sharpen it substantially better than it came from the factory, and keep it sharp. The difference between a good knife and a bad one isn't so much the handle or geometry, but the ability for the knife to take and keep an edge.
Buying knives if fun. But get this through your head: All dull knives are equal. If you're going to use a dull knife you might as well use a cheap one.
BDL
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The shun set I was talking about in my first post is here:
http://www.surlatable.com/gs/shun-classic-11-piece-block-set-bonus-board-3.shtml
says discontinued but they still have a few sets
Shun Classic 11-piece block set includes 8" chef, 6½" santoku, 9" slicer, 8" bread, 6" boning, 6" utility, 6" tomato, 3½" paring, kitchen scissors, sharpening steel and 11-slot bamboo block. Catalog, website and select stores.
I don't know a lot about knifes if that has not shown yet, and the reason i prefer this set to some other ones I tried was it fit my hand nice and I got a nice smooth cut with them, it felt as if I was cutting air.
All I know about knifes is German knifes don't hold as long as Japanese knifes.
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Other Japanese knives will cut even better than the Shuns -- at least after they're properly sharpened.
There really isn't much comparison between Japanese and German knives. Although made to serve exactly the same purposes, they do so in very different ways. Japanese knives reward sharpness, high skills and penalize poor skills (especially sharpening), while the shape of German knives provides a degree of power which helps a dull knife crush through what it won't cut cleanly.
However, Shuns are a little unusual in that their Chef's knives use a distinctly German style shape. So German, you might even call it exaggerated. Because Shuns have so much belly ("belly" is the curved part of the blade) and have the tip so high, the cook needs to pump the handle quite a bit in order to make clean cuts. That's called "rock-chopping," by the way. Whether you "rock chop," "push cut" (chopping straight up and down, common with cooks using Japanese knives), or use a shearing, French style that's somewhere in between is either imposed by the blade geometry or a matter of personal taste.
In my experience, most good knife technicians prefer French profiled blades and choose absolute sharpness and agility over the power inherent in rock chopping. But some people with very good technique love their Shuns, wide LamsonSharps, Wusthofs, etc. As I said, in the end it's just individual choice.
IMO, as a pro, you should be looking for longer knives than those in the set. It's not so much that you can't get buy with an 8" chef's and a 9" slicer, but they inhibit productivity; and once you learn how to handle a knife and manage your board an extra couple of inches won't inconvenience you in the slightest.
If I were buying a new set of knives to go back to a professional kitchen, my roll would include: 240mm - 270mm gytuo; 300 mm slicer; 150mm petty; 270mm bread -- and that's it, unless I was doing a lot of meat work, fish work, decorative cutting, splitting large foul, or other specialized stuff.
As a cook at home, I have a lot more knives that that in my block and on my bar. But as a home cook I'm not so pressed for time that choosing the theoretically best knife for the task, or just indulging my pleasure with them is a handicap. Even so, I still do about 75% of my prep with my 10" chef's, and maybe 20% with three other knives similar to the ones described.
If you've already chosen your cooking school, you may want to get in touch with them and see what they recommend for their students. They often have a choice of preferred sets. It would certainly be a good idea to find out which profiles they require.
If you're really interested in the first few years after cooking school and want to choose better knives than the student sets, I'll be happy to help you make your own choices.
BDL
Shun's probably do have potential if you were to reprofile them... I'm thinking of doing that to the Santoku I own. I definitely agree with what you said though BDL, as my Gyuto is now sharper than the Shun after I had it sharpened. I'm starting to prefer my 210mm Gyuto as I am using it as a paring knife, boning knife, chopping veggies, etc. Its a bit light and I have to adjust my style accordingly, but that is why its so versatile. (i jump around between the gyuto, chinese cleaver, and santoku... my German chef's never gets to play, lol)
Cooking schools will likely emphasize techniques like the rock cut, which work best with German profile knives. I personally don't like that technique and that was how I was taught to cut. They also make you buy a lot of knives you probably will rarely/ never use outside of school. Personally, I only spend money on knives I use a lot... and I get Forschner/ Victorinox for the others. (cheap but good) Unless you really want some pretty knives to worry about, I'd just get a set of Forschner/ Victorinox. Although theft hasn't been an issue for me, it is common that someone will knock your knife off the table or someone will do the unmentionable and use your nice knife improperly and damage it.
- Shun
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