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Weisenberger Mills Unbleached Bread Flour and Diastatic Malt

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

I've made two loaves of bread using W's unbleached Bread Flour and noticed my loaves being denser and not too quick to rise. A phone call to the mill revealed that the named flour has no additives and therefore has no diastatic malt added to it already . I now know the reason for retaining the diastatic malt that I ordered a couple of years ago but never used since KA flour has the D.M. added to it.

 

Will let you know if any differences in rise rate occur because of the addition of DM to W's flour.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #2 of 13

Hmmmmm? I had no idea that KA already had the malt added to it. Guess I need to learn to read labels more closely.

 

Between this and comments on the other thread, I reckon it's time to pick up a bag of KA, and do some side-by-side comparisons.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 

Having taught courses in health science for several, I always did label comparison for my students. Whereas Corn Flakes has around 4g of added sugar per serving, Sugar Frosted Flakes has around 14-20g per serving. Hmmmmmm, ever wonder the reason kids these days are so hyperactive?!?!? Oh, and some tofu out there weighs in at approximately 30% fat calories. Really healthy.  READ ALL FOOD LABELS.

 

8P

 

 

Well, I made my second loaf of bread this evening but with diastatic malt added to it.  The rise was much improved but I need to work on getting better surface tension - this being a newly acquired flour and all.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #4 of 13

I get my Diastatic malt at the local home brew beer supply store.  It is actually sprouted wheat which is toasted and ground.  It helps convert the starch to sugar so that the yeast can have a larger food supply and therefore multiply faster, easier and in greater abundance, hence lighter loafs.  It also adds flavor.  Diastatic malt at the home brew store comes in litht medium and dark roast, I buy the dark for it stronger flavor.

post #5 of 13

How much DM are you using that it effects the flavor of the bread? Most recipes I'm familiar with only call for a 1/2 teaspoon or so.

 

In my experience, using retarded fermentation techniques, DM doesn't make much of a difference. The rare times I make a direct loaf, I add (if I remember to) a glug of cane syrup, just to give the yeast a hand. But I don't know if that really matters, either. It doesn't hurt, and might help, so why not?

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #6 of 13
Thread Starter 

The instructions on the package state to use 1/2 - 1 tsp DM per 3 cups of flour.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 

My original 6C recipe works out to approx 745g flour. According to Hamelman, diastatic malt is added at the proportion of .1-.2% which works out to approx. 1/4-1/2 tsp for that amount of flour.  Hmmmmm, there's a huge discrepancy here, between my calculations and the recommendations on the backside of KA's package for diastatic malt powder:

 

For 6C:

 

mine 1/4 to 1/2 tsp

KA:   1-2 tsp

 

I hear that less is more and therefore it's quite easy to overuse the DM.  For my next 6C loaf I'll use the amount I calculated out rather than the recommendations set forth by KA.

 

Y'all might checkout this link: http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/1126


Edited by kokopuffs - 6/5/10 at 4:28am

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #8 of 13

1/2 tsp of DM seems to be the typical amount. Or just leave it out. Other than unknowingly, when I was using King Arthur flour, I never use it.

 

DM's sole important function is to speed up the process of converting starches to sugars, thus making them available to the yeast faster. Being as I almost always use retarded fermentation techniques, speed of conversion is not an issue.

 

 A secondary reason for its use is that it contributes to making the crust darker. Again, this hasn't been a problem for me; and usually isn't for most people.

 

DM, in the amounts used, should have no direct effect on flavor.

 

I wonder if its use has to do with whether or not an author is oriented to commercial, particularly factory, baking, because adding it to flour automatically affects the falling number in a positive way.

 

Eric Kastel, for instance, is a big proponent of using it, and calls for it in all his recipes. Kastel's background is as a factory baker for places like Whole Foods and Pannini. Peter Reinhart discusses it, but doesn't use it in most of his formula. And, so far as Eric Treuille is concerned, it doesn't exist at all.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 

I assume that there are some bakers who prefer working with "unfortified or untreated" flour and this is my first ever experience with the stuff.  Even with the addition of DM to my last dough/loaf (1.5 tsp of DM per 6C flour), I noticed that fermentation proceeded somewhat slowly.  So I should give my mixture more time to rise and ferment, perhaps.


Edited by kokopuffs - 6/5/10 at 6:47am

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #10 of 13

I reckon that might be it, Kokopuffs. But the additional rise time (for the first proofing, that is) shouldn't be all that different. If you've been running 60-90 minutes with DM, without it you'll likely stretch to 90-120 minutes.

 

Interestingly, if you look at baking books not aimed at the professional or serious amateur, two things stand out. First, of course, is the use of volume measurements. The other is a total absence of things like DM. Yet, they all say, "....until doubled in size, about an hour."

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #11 of 13
Thread Starter 

What is your comparative experience with Weisenberger as opposed to KA - in terms of rising times?  I know, this is a really nebulous question but also I'm noticing that Weisenberger Bread Flour probably requires a little less hydration than the KA Bread Flour for whatever reasons.  W's dough seems slacker using proportions I've made up for my loaf of KA.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #12 of 13

Wish I even had a gut feel that I could share, Koko. But it's been quite awhile since I used KA. And I don't really watch the clock during a rise. I just periodically check the dough, and when it's ready, it's ready.

 

If I were forced to state an opinion, I'd guess that with W I'm typically running 1 1/2-2 hours on the first rise. That would be using a preferment and additional yeast ranging from zero to one teaspoon. The exception: Kastel's recipe for soft pretzels, which uses a pate fermentee and 2 1/2 teaspoons of additional instant yeast, then goes directly to shaping.

 

I'm thinking you're probably right about hydration. With KA I almost always used the full amount of water called for, and more when the humidity was particularly low. If I do that with W I have to add an inordinate amount of additional flour to get a proper dough.

 

The Weisenburger seems to need an early autolyse to prevent over hydration. That is, when you first mix it it seems too dry. Then it's suddenly wet. If that makes sense. Usually I mix the ingredients until they just come together and separate from the inside of the mixing bowl. Then I let it rest, in the mixing bowl, for up to five minutes before making adjustments and kneading. Given the short amount of rest time I'm not sure if autolyse is the correct usage, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that the W seems slower to absorb the liquid, and needs time to do so.  

 

As you know, though, so much of this is based on feel, that it's really hard to generalize.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 

Today's experience has been similar.  Last night I premixed 6C W with 1tsp DM.  From part of that mixture I made my poolish at about 2230 hrs.  At 0400 hrs today upon examining the poolish, I noticed that the rise and activity were similar or even better(!) - more active - to/than poolish made with KA.

 

When mixed into a dough consisting of rehydrated onions, onion powder, 1 1/2 TBS potato flour, and with some kneading, I achieved a very shaggy dough that may require over an hour for the first proof/rise.  This dough was definitely not slack and seems to take more time to absorb the water than the KA.  Will keep you informed.

 

Overall I reduced poolish hydration by 2 TBS water and the remaining water for the final dough was reduced by another 2 TBS.

 

1.5 hours later:  THAT'S IT!!  Chic alors!.  The first rise's doubling time took 1 1/2 hours and the dough indeed appears much smoother and even has a great surface tension.!

 

Edit:

 

3 hours later:  with a total of 1.5 hrs proofing, 1 french fold followed by a 40 minute rise, and finally baking at 500F for 15 minutes and 495 for another 20 minutes, the crust looks crunchy, dark but not burnt, and the oven spring looks fine.

 

5 hours later:  excellent crust with lots of crunchiness and without the gumminess that using excess DM brings.  Crumb is medium as opposed to wide open or closed and with lots of moisture thanks to the inclusion of potato flour.


Edited by kokopuffs - 6/6/10 at 9:09am

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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