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Killing - Page 2

post #31 of 62



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Buchanan View Post

BDL I would not have believed anyone heard noise when cooking Lobster . But then how many here have cooked 100 or more at any one time. Maybe it was squeeking of shells, but we both heard it.


I think they were yelling "TURN DOWN THE JACUZZI, ITS TO DAM HOT".............Admitted lobster killer ,,,,,,,,,,Chef BillyB
 

post #32 of 62

If you can't look into the eyes of the animal that helps you survive, you shouldn't be allowed to eat it. If North American people had to survive off the land, they would starve to death...........Chef BillyB

post #33 of 62

While I understand your point, Billy, it's rather a gross generalization.

 

There are 15-million hunters in the United States, and 35-million fishermen (that, btw, is defined as those who fish 10 or more days a year). Those numbers do not include either outlaws or casual fishermen. From what I know of them, the proportion of hunter/gatherer to general population is probably even higher in Canada. I just don't have hard numbers.

 

Sure, there's some hunter/fishermen overlap. But throw in the unquantifiable number of foragers (how many mushroom hunters, for instance, are there?) and we're likely looking at a hundred million hunter-gatherer types.

 

Now add in the farmers, who certainly would have no problem living off the land in the sense we've been discussing it.

 

That's just the ready-made number who are prepared to survive by living off the land. But it doesn't take long to learn; not when the alternative is starving.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #34 of 62

Is there a word limit on here? I can't post more than a few words, but I've got paragraphs ready to go.

post #35 of 62



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

While I understand your point, Billy, it's rather a gross generalization.

 

There are 15-million hunters in the United States, and 35-million fishermen (that, btw, is defined as those who fish 10 or more days a year). Those numbers do not include either outlaws or casual fishermen. From what I know of them, the proportion of hunter/gatherer to general population is probably even higher in Canada. I just don't have hard numbers.

 

Sure, there's some hunter/fishermen overlap. But throw in the unquantifiable number of foragers (how many mushroom hunters, for instance, are there?) and we're likely looking at a hundred million hunter-gatherer types.

 

Now add in the farmers, who certainly would have no problem living off the land in the sense we've been discussing it.

 

That's just the ready-made number who are prepared to survive by living off the land. But it doesn't take long to learn; not when the alternative is starving.


Just don't want to hear people crying in their Filet Mignon steaks. Walk through a Beef processing plant that processes 2400 head a day, its like a killing field. I just think people should face the truth on where the food comes from. I was in the pen when our feeder pig was shot in the head and then slit his throat, the pig died 10 minutes later. We were there when the pig was born, and there when he died, respect for the food chain......................ChefBillyB

post #36 of 62

 

One thing I might suggest is purchasing beef or lamb from a local farm and make a point to be there when the animal is harvested.  Many smaller farms will sell you 1/4 or 1/2 for a very reasonable price - higher quality than the supermarket but price competitive.  Butcher services offered for an additional fee.  The farm will advertise if the animals are on natural diets (i.e. grass fed) and if they are slaughtered in the fields that they were born.  

 

You won't be the one "doing the deed" but at least it might help make the mental connection between what walks the fields and what goes on your plate.  Mind you, I'm not saying you aren't already aware - just that it's no longer abstract once you're there to see the animal slaughtered yourself.  I'm betting after that you'll have an appreciation for livestock that you didn't have before.  That or you'll become a vegetarian 

 

I think it's difficult to ask anyone to harvest an animal, especially a mammal, unless you've witnessed it done before.  Just food for thought.

post #37 of 62

When I was just a small boy, I remember seeing people at a place on the river cleaning catfish. I remember seeing them rip off fins, and pull off the skin with the catfish flopping and fighting. They did it so quickly, and seemingly so heartlessly. I felt sick to my stomach.

 

Years later I fish myself, and just yesterday filetted redfish and black drum. I think I am to the point that if needed I could do it while they were alive. I'd take the head off as a first step myself. Others seem to have no problem slicing around on a writhing fish, but I really don't see a practical need for it and it kinda bothers me.

 

My whole point was that in time, you become desensitized. Things become easier, and you can let your ethical obligation see to it that any animal harvested is done so humanely and quickly.

post #38 of 62

Where did you see that, Eastshores?

 

I've been fishing seriously since I was 8. Won't say how long ago that was, but I've lived under 12 presidents. I've fished in most states, and several foreign countries, and have never seen anyone skin a live fish; or even gut & gill one.

 

I'm wondering if you misunderstood what you were looking at, while young, and it just codified in your mind?

 

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

Where did you see that, Eastshores?

 

I've been fishing seriously since I was 8. Won't say how long ago that was, but I've lived under 12 presidents. I've fished in most states, and several foreign countries, and have never seen anyone skin a live fish; or even gut & gill one.

 

I'm wondering if you misunderstood what you were looking at, while young, and it just codified in your mind?

 

This video should answer all the questions........
YouTube - A Deep Fried Carp Is Eaten ALIVE!!
 

post #40 of 62

I worked in a processing plant for 16 years and to this day I love to eat meat. It was a little rough in the beginning but I eventually saw it as widgets and whatnot's. The young bleating Lambs were really tough but I never had to kill any. They were always harvested with the utmost respect and care. The guys who were butchers were often ex-farmers that saw the value of their work. I even saw two guys raise a calf that was born from a down cow because they saw the value of life. There were men who were respectful, and some who didn't give a damn. The latter were short lived because they saw no value in what they were doing. Are butchers big hearted softies? No, but they do have a respect for what they do for a living. When I worked with these men most of them were volunteer firefighters and EMTs that had enough respect for a life that they risked theirs at times to help others. Have any of you read Michael Keller's book when he had to butcher rabbits for a dinner? It shows that if you choose to harvest an animal you better not waste it. If you have ever read any Native American history, there is a respect for the life they take to sustain theirs through the harvesting of the animals. I think it is all about respect for the provisions God has given us to feed our families. He created all of this and allowed us to be part of it so we need to abide by His rules. I read His word and it is all about Love and respect for Him, each other and His creation. We can discuss this all day long and it always comes back to respec fort what you are doing, and always show respect for your craft and you will come away satisfied with what you do. 

post #41 of 62

This video should answer all the questions........

 

Doesn't answer any questions for me, Billy. Unless you're trying to equate a weird specialty dish with sport fishing.

 

To me that carp thing ranks up there with eating live octopus. I don't understand the point of that, either. But some people just have to push the envelope in order to have something to brag about.

 

If we started to list bizarre food and dining practices we'd be here all night. But I've never seen anything as bizarre as a sport fisherman trying to skin a living catfish. Nor to I believe it can be done as described.

 

I believe, as stated above, that Eastshores didn't understand what he was seeing, as a child, but that the interpreted memory is what he carries around---not an unusual syndrome, and something all of us have experienced in one form or another.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #42 of 62
Missyjean,
All animals follow patterns that continue their own existence until those methods fail. On the other hand, so do planets. Do planets, therefor, value life? Plants have the ability to secrete phenols as part of an immune system, give stress reactions, and compete for light. Does this make plants aware enough to actively desire life?

Coming to the conclusion that something is precious to something that we are not sure is even aware (have you talked to any bivalves about it lately?) is a premature conclusion in my opinion. I can not see evidence of their desire to live outside of some very basic reactions. Without evidence of forethought, it is impossible to contemplate, so it is impossible to make an active choice. Provide evidence of forethought, show it as unique from simple pattern recognition, and suddenly you have a case for the animal actually valuing its own life.

BDL, KYH, Ed,
What you guys are into there is an argument of qualia as far as I can see. Qualia arguments turn into a bloody (and in my opinion worthless) mess if you let them get away from the empirical. Sure, compare the number of rods and cones, or the shape of an eye's lense to determine sight. At the same time though, don't go extending it to the mind-body dualism game where it lacks falsifiability. In my amateur opinion, there is no evidence for a lobster showing forethought (see above). Lobsters do have nociceptic pathways though, so they may very well feel pain. The interpretation of that pain is not something I would dare to draw any conclusions about.

As for communication, I don't see a dependence on communication in order to possess a desire to live. A measurable set of reactions is required to determine the possibility, but language is icing on the cake for that one.

BillyB,
If you can't perform bypass surgery, do you deserve to get it? Just a thought :)

Dave,
Religion may provide you with ethics, but it is not required to have them. I am an atheist, but I find my ethics far more defined than what years of theism provided. Right now I find myself eating meat when I can't ethically justify it, and this distresses me. I am glad to have this problem as it has allowed me a better understanding of ethics and awareness. If I were part of a major world religion, this question would've been answered for me without further examination. I would feel cheated of the ability to consider more ethical behavior in light of new evidence. This is not to say that I am against the freedom for an individual to believe as they please, but rather that we can all be good without a god.
post #43 of 62

I went bass fishing with a friend a couple of years ago and we had kept all those bass we caught (okay, just one, fish weren't cooperating) in a cooler of cold water. My friend filleted the fish as it was wiggling. I would have at least given it a quick death first, by cutting its neck--to the extent that fish have necks. I didn't say anything since we were in his boat that was towed by his truck, but I'll always kill it fast before filleting.

 

Humans kill animals. There's no way around it. But we can try to be respectful and merciful. My two cents. Oops, I gave 2 cents before, so this is my 3 and 4 cents.

post #44 of 62

OregonYeti, some people don't kill animals that are likely to be aware. It's possible, but as a former pescetarian (near vegetarian really) I will say that it's not easy. I found myself unable to even think coherently on that kind of diet for some reason; I was scatterbrained for months. Right now I'm trying to figure out what was missing, and I will likely head back to the diet once I figure it out.

 

While I find it implausible that fish are self-aware based on the evidence that I've seen, I still agree with your position; put the animal out of its misery. There's no loss in killing an animal quickly before eating it, so the margin of doubt should be appeased.

post #45 of 62



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophos View Post

Missyjean,
All animals follow patterns that continue their own existence until those methods fail. On the other hand, so do planets. Do planets, therefor, value life? Plants have the ability to secrete phenols as part of an immune system, give stress reactions, and compete for light. Does this make plants aware enough to actively desire life?

Coming to the conclusion that something is precious to something that we are not sure is even aware (have you talked to any bivalves about it lately?) is a premature conclusion in my opinion. I can not see evidence of their desire to live outside of some very basic reactions. Without evidence of forethought, it is impossible to contemplate, so it is impossible to make an active choice. Provide evidence of forethought, show it as unique from simple pattern recognition, and suddenly you have a case for the animal actually valuing its own life.

BDL, KYH, Ed,
What you guys are into there is an argument of qualia as far as I can see. Qualia arguments turn into a bloody (and in my opinion worthless) mess if you let them get away from the empirical. Sure, compare the number of rods and cones, or the shape of an eye's lense to determine sight. At the same time though, don't go extending it to the mind-body dualism game where it lacks falsifiability. In my amateur opinion, there is no evidence for a lobster showing forethought (see above). Lobsters do have nociceptic pathways though, so they may very well feel pain. The interpretation of that pain is not something I would dare to draw any conclusions about.

As for communication, I don't see a dependence on communication in order to possess a desire to live. A measurable set of reactions is required to determine the possibility, but language is icing on the cake for that one.

BillyB,
If you can't perform bypass surgery, do you deserve to get it? Just a thought :)

Dave,
Religion may provide you with ethics, but it is not required to have them. I am an atheist, but I find my ethics far more defined than what years of theism provided. Right now I find myself eating meat when I can't ethically justify it, and this distresses me. I am glad to have this problem as it has allowed me a better understanding of ethics and awareness. If I were part of a major world religion, this question would've been answered for me without further examination. I would feel cheated of the ability to consider more ethical behavior in light of new evidence. This is not to say that I am against the freedom for an individual to believe as they please, but rather that we can all be good without a god.


BillyB,
If you can't perform bypass surgery, do you deserve to get it? Just a thought :)

 

  All I'm saying is, have the balls to know what it takes to feed 300 million people in this country. I would say that if 75% of Americans saw how their meat products were slaughtered, they would be sickened. The original poster was worried about slaughtering EELS, I have been a Chef for over 30 years and never talked to another Chef that was SLAUGHTERING EELS.. ....................Chef BillyB
 

post #46 of 62

KY, I didn't imagine what I saw. I'm surprised you haven't seen that before. They had boards set up with nails sticking up, they would slam the live catfish down on the nail, then go to town on it with pliers and a filet knife. I remember specifically the fish moving. On monday at the boat ramp I witnessed someone filet a redfish that was moving it's tail as it was being done. I choose to ice down fish myself, but obviously that is not done by all.

post #47 of 62

Philosoph,

 

You wrote,

BDL, KYH, Ed,
What you guys are into there is an argument of qualia as far as I can see.

 

You're not seeing.

 

If you'd actually read our posts you would see I neither advanced nor joined an argument.  I've only made the purely "empirical" observation that lobsters don't have vocal chords, and thereby deduced they cannot scream.  I did not say lobsters do or do not feel pain; nor said how much human-inflicted crustacean pain is reasonable. 

 

KY said and did not say much the same things as I.  Not a quale to be found.

 

Ed clarified his remarks, which he expressly limited to observation as well: 

I Never said [lobster sounds of pain were] a truth, and did not state it as a fact. I only stated what we heard.

 

I'm happy you read Dennett and learned a Latin word.  But it seems here the qualia are in your head.

 

BDL

What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
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post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefBillyB View Post

  All I'm saying is, have the balls to know what it takes to feed 300 million people in this country. I would say that if 75% of Americans saw how their meat products were slaughtered, they would be sickened. The original poster was worried about slaughtering EELS, I have been a Chef for over 30 years and never talked to another Chef that was SLAUGHTERING EELS.. ....................Chef BillyB
 


That I can agree with. To be honest, I'm largely sickened with the USDA in regards to how it handles beef and grain. What concerns me is that so many people have a defense mechanism that makes them not want to know, strictly for the sake of their own psychological comfort.

 

post #49 of 62

My problem is that the USDA does not handle meat anymore. There are no inspectors .Over the years thru attrition and budget they have phased them out. There are plenty of supervisors and administrators though .If a plant has any sought of outbreak it takes a long time before the public is notified The packers are on self inspection. That is a joke.  Big business hides it all even though they are aware. Look at Toyota even though it is not food, it is safety.What good is a government fine after the people are killed? The people don't gain.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #50 of 62

Should it be noted that the majority of meat consumed was bred for that predetermined purpose....the gift of life was encouraged with a strings attached.The enviroment they are born into is not wholely natural but neither are the risks (or lack of) they face. Most farmers do everything in their power to ensure the wellbeing of their stock. Perhaps any life is better than none at all....

 

Should we feel the pain when we drink a glass of milk knowing this cow stressed for several days (and they do) when her offspring was removed. Bull calves make the ultimate sacrifice sooner or later but the heifers will probably join Mum in the daily grind...a life is a life  .

"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans."
Allen Saunders, 1957.
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"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans."
Allen Saunders, 1957.
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post #51 of 62


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Philosoph,

 

You wrote,

 

You're not seeing.

 

If you'd actually read our posts you would see I neither advanced nor joined an argument.  I've only made the purely "empirical" observation that lobsters don't have vocal chords, and thereby deduced they cannot scream.  I did not say lobsters do or do not feel pain; nor said how much human-inflicted crustacean pain is reasonable. 

 

KY said and did not say much the same things as I.  Not a quale to be found.

 

Ed clarified his remarks, which he expressly limited to observation as well: 

 

I'm happy you read Dennett and learned a Latin word.  But it seems here the qualia are in your head.

 

BDL


Looks like I missed a post while making a post.

 

KYH was talking about what sort of pain lobsters feel, Ed about the thought of not actually being a lobster so not being able to comprehend the experience, and you were talking about whether the lobster was expressing pain. All of these circle around the issue of the qualities of a lobsters experience and whether they interpret nociception in the same way. I figured that I'd toss my two bits in based on previous experience.

 

post #52 of 62

Actually, BDL is right. You need to be less anxious about turning everything into a philosophical argument, and more concerned with your ability to comprehend what people write.

 

Look at my post again. I never made any claims for or against whether, or how, lobsters feel pain. I reported on what, at one time, was a common belief, but that I'd not personally experienced it.

 

Ed, also, was reporting his actual experiences, not making claims about whether pain was or was not felt.

 

BDL has already reiterated that he made an empirical observation, one that did not include either an opinion or value judgement about felt pain.

 

Just a simple matter of reading what was written.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #53 of 62

In the end, we really are not at the top of the food chain.  The worms are.  They eat us all eventually, and if not worms then some fungi or other living rot will get us.

 

So I guess ethics or morality or respect for our food doesn't end up changing anything.

 

I really don' t think that the worms give a hoot.  They're hungry, they eat.  End of story.

 

doc

post #54 of 62

The worms give a hoot, have you ever hooked one on to a fish hook? They squirm all over shooting nasty worm puss out. If they could, they would quickly break our necks and eat us, we can only hope they would do it in a dignified manner, and have concern over our suffering but that would be asking more than we afford them.

post #55 of 62

This is an extremely interesting thread and one I am surprised to see.  I thought I was the only one that had gone "soft".  Although I still eat meat I tend to eat less of it because of the thought of taking a life, any life, is getting more difficult as I get older.  Often, while floating in the pool, I'll find an ant or some other small insect on my arm or the float and rather than killing it, I set it on the side of the pool.  Yet when I was younger, I was an avid fisherman and enjoyed bird hunting.  Now, I no longer hunt or fish although I would consider taking up catch and release fly fishing.

 

I wish I knew what the answer was.

 

Rich

post #56 of 62

lol, in a survival situation, philosophy goes out the window. To me the question is not do i have the right to kill this animal to eat it but can I kill it quickly and humanely to provide food without causing undo suffering?

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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post #57 of 62

Gunnar,

 

In a survival situation, even you go on the menu!!    For tonight, my favorite meatloaf recipe, tomorrow stuffed baked potato, and the day after I'm considering apple/ butternut squash soup.  Then.... who knows?  I believe that most of the prior posts were more related to day to day life.  I know mine was.

 

Take care,

 

Rich

 

Edit:  Actually, in a survival situation I wouldn't be too worried about "quickly and humanely".  I'd be more worried that dinner would get away.

post #58 of 62

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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post #59 of 62

You mean" Gateau La Fritture"

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #60 of 62

Back to oysters, thanks for the info everyone.

 

I raised the question because we were out for dinner one night with our kids.  I had raw oysters as a treat, and my daughter (then 17) wanted to try one out.  She did, and enjoyed it.  Then came the question...."Are they alive when we eat them?"

 

Of course, the answer was yes (as confirmed here).  She's not forgiven me yet.  Oh dear. 

 

P.S. Yeti - you did the cow a favour.  Rather than a prolonged death stuck in a ditch, you ended it's suffering.

 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
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 Don't handicap your children by making their lives easy.
Robert A. Heinlein

 
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