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Hollandaise Sauce Question - Page 3

post #61 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckFat View Post


Some times good.....Isn't good enough.

 

 

Dave

 

 

Without going into "the best is the enemy of the good" realm, there is a realm where people get a very bad interpretation of a dish/sauce/etc and walk away thinking and saying "oh yes I have had such-and-such and don't bother".  I have experienced many times where people will have something I have prepared and basically said "I normally don't like such-and-such but this is fabulous".  Like the first time you eat say, a farm fresh hard boiled egg that isn't cooked to green chalk.  I am sure people walk away with the green chalk experience thinking "yes I have had a hard boiled egg, and I hate them".  "Oh yeah, Hollandaise, I know that sauce".   I've always made it with melted butter, that is how I was taught....haven't tried the clarified route, nor the soft butter route, although the latter intrigues me more than the former but I'll eventually try them both for comparison.  Seems to me, proportionally aside from the various proteins, acids, minerals and lactose you have the water content (a nod to the concept of the terroir being addressed in this thread).  If you do the melted butter you'll notice that if your proportions are right then at the end that addition of the collected water and solids really brings the sauce to the proper consistency, at least from my perspective. 

post #62 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post

 

Someday soon a line will be drawn in the sand between those who depend entirely on convienience products, and those who do almost everything by themselves--no room for fence sitters........

 

I envision those things which I do not have the time/skill/facility to create would be provided by another artisan.  Obviously Hollandaise isn't one of them, but the ingredients are.  I raise the eggs, but not the cow for the cream.  But I know who has the best cream in the area and I can then churn it and culture it to make butter.  It's all about the relative level of quality of all everything.  And these things aren't necessarily always more expensive.  One place here makes yogurt that is just mind-blowing and they sell it for $2.90/qt.  Compared with the rising popularity of "Greek" style yogurts in the area and the supermarket price of ~$5/qt, the former is far far superior and much less expensive.  I think much of it is about perspective on the part of the restaurant and the customer that needs an adjustment. 

post #63 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoebisch View Post

Without going into "the best is the enemy of the good" realm, there is a realm where people get a very bad interpretation of a dish/sauce/etc and walk away thinking and saying "oh yes I have had such-and-such and don't bother". 

 

If you do the melted butter you'll notice that if your proportions are right then at the end that addition of the collected water and solids really brings the sauce to the proper consistency, at least from my perspective. 

 

So the solution is to use mediocre instant or pre-made products for the sake of consistency? Chain restaurants may say yes but is that really because of quality?  We can doctor up an instant product but that has point of diminishing returns.

 

 One of the things that seems to have been a bit over looked is that when we add solids they can de-stabilize the sauce. Not so much of a problem at home but a real issue in most professional kitchens. Considering that separating the solids usually drives food cost up I would say that clarified butter was so widely used for a reason....stability.

In the mean time lets not forget we were driven off the rails a bit by the suggestion that those of us using clarified butter are a bit miss-guided in our interpretation, Not the notion that there is more than one way to make a quality sauce. There have been a lot of variations on nearly every sauce and irrespective of using clarified butter, melted butter or softened butter it's all a big step above a pre-fab or instant product when done right.

 

 

Dave

 

 


Edited by DuckFat - 4/23/12 at 9:43am
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
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post #64 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckFat View Post

 

 

So the solution is to use mediocre instant or pre-made products for the sake of consistency? Chain restaurants may say yes but is that really because of quality?  We can doctor up an instant product but that has point of diminishing returns.

 

 One of the things that seems to have been a bit over looked is that when we add solids they can de-stabilize the sauce. Not so much of a problem at home but a real issue in most professional kitchens. Considering that separating the solids usually drives food cost up I would say that clarified butter was so widely used for a reason....stability.

In the mean time lets not forget we were driven off the rails a bit by the suggestion that those of us using clarified butter are a bit miss-guided in our interpretation, Not the notion that there is more than one way to make a quality sauce. There have been a lot of variations on nearly every sauce and irrespective of using clarified butter, melted butter or softened butter it's all a big step above a pre-fab or instant product when done right.

 

 

Dave

 

 

 

Right, it's a choice based on several reasons.  Personally I find none of them acceptable.  Take the dish using Hollandaise off your menu.  That is how I would personally approach it (if moving to the level of these pre-fab ideas).

post #65 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckFat View Post

 

 

So the solution is to use mediocre instant or pre-made products for the sake of consistency? Chain restaurants may say yes but is that really because of quality?  We can doctor up an instant product but that has point of diminishing returns.

 

Dave

 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand wrt my post where you are coming from? 

post #66 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatch View Post

Well, it's an hour you're not paying attention to it....

 

Exactly.  And there is no holding issue.  Once emulsified you can keep in the water bath till the cows come home.  Or until the english muffins are toasted.

post #67 of 108

FWIW, a thermos bottle works even better than a water bath.  Hollandaise held in a bain marie tends to either form a skin on top, have a little oil (from the butter) float to the top, or (yum-o) both.

 

BDL

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post #68 of 108

Totally agree with the thermos, BDL.  I did an off-site wine tasting last week and used those for all my sauces, even a buerre rouge.  A little shake pulls it right back together.

 

--Al

post #69 of 108

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMcPherson View Post

 And there is no holding issue.  Once emulsified you can keep in the water bath till the cows come home.  

 

Do you attribute that to codling the eggs or that you are using about 1/3 the "classic" ratio of butter to egg? I'm not sure I can see the benefit of Sous-vide Hollandaise as it just looks like a blender version in the end only with an even greater disparity in the egg/butter ratio.

I think most of the blender versions are less stable as they tend to incorporate a lot of air. If you have to shake your sauce up to re-emulisy it sounds like a mighty thin sauce. I'd just want to know why my sauce was separating enough to need to be shaken like a Martini. It would however be quite stylish if you were saucing at the table for a James Bond premiere.

 

 

Dave

 

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post #70 of 108

Dave,

 

The mason jar technique only requires shaking to speed the process along.  To some extent it is blender hollandaise, with the advantage of having the eggs being beyond coddled --  they are "cooked" and sterile.  The biggest advantage is that it will not break, the butter won't split, the eggs can't overcook.   With the cost of butter being what it is I appreciate an idiot proof way of making hot emulsions, especially one that removes the need to time the dish around the sauce.  You know the sauce is going to be ready to go when your plate is.  Even leftovers can be easily reheated by bringing the jar back to 65 degrees.

 

I think you boxed a couple of my posts.  The hollandaise is too thick to shake --- I was referring to a red wine and butter sauce being shaken in a thermos.  No eggs as liason, and that sauce was just made in a pan.  Good things those pans.  They might catch on.

 

--Al

post #71 of 108

Escoffier pre-1871 Plais d'Orsay.jpg

 

 

 

A photo of the big man himself (center left) at the Palais d'Orsay.

 

Dave

I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
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post #72 of 108

.

post #73 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefedb View Post

To me Escoffier was using hot butter not softened or room temp. It is easier to teach a newb how to make it in a blender using hot butter to heat the yolks. To have a student stand here and whisk over a pot of kot water on the stove is asking for trouble. 1 in most cases sauce will break and he or she is highly likely to burn themselves. In his time all butter was what is known as 93 score today however butter by different manufacturers contains different amounts of water.

Margarine also . some contains so much water that on the label they even advise you not to cook or saute with it.  Cream in his time was at least 35 to 45 % butterfat but again not today, every brand is different. Now we even have imitation margarine, it looks like it was concocked by a pharmacist  or chemist.

Chef, I mean no disrespect to your vast knowledge of culinary. However when it comes to culinary students, I believe it is best to teach them the classic method. To cut corners and teach them to use a blender for a classic mother sauce is just not giving them the true knowledge of culinary arts. Being a student myself, I can say that in my sauces class no student burned themselves, many a student did curdle the yolk however. It was through the hands on experience in the classic preperation they gained the knowledge of the art of hollandaise. From there they can experiment or try tricks, or follow the Ex. Chef's instructions on how it is executed in his kitchen.

post #74 of 108

I agree. When I was teaching school I showed the class how to make it with a Robo, a Blender and by hand. My logic was when they went out into the trade each place makes it a different way so now they see all 3.  . I also told them Robo and Blender style best for volume .

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #75 of 108

Classical training, thats the way the French do it.
 

post #76 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicGuy View Post

Hi, in my class, one of our assignments is going to be an open discussion on the differences of using whole butter vs clarified butter for hollandaise sauce.  I'm new to the culinary world so i do not have any personal knowledge on the subject.  But after some research all i could come up with is that when you clarify the butter, you remove the solids and the water from the butter fat  which would end up changing the consistency of the sauce.  I also know that it would change the flavor a bit.  I believe that the higher smoking point of clarified butter would not matter in this instance because with hollandaise sauce you do not bring the temperature high enough to make a difference due to not wanting to cook the eggs.

 

Anybody have any info/opinions/experience on whole butter vs clarified butter for hollandaise sauce?

Whole butter hollandaise will not be as rich as clarified butter it will need more eggs to get thick and the emulsion will be unstable, and if i was your chef and you didn't use clarified butter i would kick your ass lol........ALways use clarified butter for hollandaise and Bearnaise :) hope this helps 

post #77 of 108

I have seen placed that use mayonaise as a base.. I tried it home and added a bit of cayenne and few drops H20.  It was not bad. The reason I tried it ? We do many Kosher parties and Hollandaise can't be used on meat plate where as this can. It can be served with meat or dairy meals.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #78 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by boudreauxcooks View Post

Chef, I mean no disrespect to your vast knowledge of culinary. However when it comes to culinary students, I believe it is best to teach them the classic method. To cut corners and teach them to use a blender for a classic mother sauce is just not giving them the true knowledge of culinary arts. Being a student myself, I can say that in my sauces class no student burned themselves, many a student did curdle the yolk however. It was through the hands on experience in the classic preperation they gained the knowledge of the art of hollandaise. From there they can experiment or try tricks, or follow the Ex. Chef's instructions on how it is executed in his kitchen.

Chef no disrespect either but I'm a teacher and i agree 100% with boudreauxcooks, making sabayon is a fundamental skill, If you learn how to make it in a thermoxmix, robot coupe, etc, etc, you can't go back to the classic way, but if you learn the classic way you can always use a thermomix etc, etc :) 

post #79 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefZoneAU View Post

Whole butter hollandaise will not be as rich as clarified butter it will need more eggs to get thick and the emulsion will be unstable, and if i was your chef and you didn't use clarified butter i would kick your ass lol........ALways use clarified butter for hollandaise and Bearnaise :) hope this helps 

 

The thickness can be controlled by drops of warm or cold water.  Oldest trick that's not a trick in the book. Why am I repeating myself so much.  Whole melted butter is fine too.  I have never noticed a difference in the way the emulsion holds using clarified and non.  There's enough lecithin in an egg yolk to emulsify a gallon of butter.  Technique and feel is what holds it together.  Besides, it only takes two minutes to make a couple three servings.  By the time your muffins are toasted or your fish is poached your Hollandaise is done.

 

I know.  Sometimes I feel like my way is the best way.  I understand that you feel the same way too.  But I am right.  ;)

post #80 of 108

just emulsify water and eggs then lol

post #81 of 108

Hey forget the eggs.  Use water and emulsifier.  

 

Actually that's the scary non-fat dressing stuff.

post #82 of 108

the supermarket stuff with the suspended herbs through it ? yeah crazy stuff i believe its agar agar mimicking the oil mouth feel.

post #83 of 108

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post #84 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefZoneAU View Post

Whole butter hollandaise will not be as rich as clarified butter it will need more eggs to get thick and the emulsion will be unstable

In my experience with doing side by side comparison tests, whole butter hollandaise will be a somewhat thinner consistency but with a richer and rounder flavor profile.

 

As to the stability question, I haven't really done an specific testing along those lines other than having made it both ways for years with no real problem with either, however I am curious as to reasoning on this issue.

 

Mine is that when you clarifiy butter you are getting rid of milk solids along with the water. Milk solids are stabilizers, so a whole butter hollandaise would be more stable.

 

When making a beurre blanc, if you want it more stable you add cream. The same thing with a vinaigrette. Are there flaws in my reasoning?

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post #85 of 108

Many products use glycerin to simulate oil or fat. Ice cream producers some time use it a lot to give it a rich feel when going down the throat

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #86 of 108

Cheflayne said raised some interesting points.  I neither agree nor disagree -- least not to the point of saying anyone is absolutely right or wrong -- but think the way he raised them provides some good jumping off places for further discussion. 

In my experience with doing side by side comparison tests, whole butter hollandaise will be a somewhat thinner consistency but with a richer and rounder flavor profile.

 

In my experience, you can control thickness and thinness pretty easily with the butter/egg ratio.  If, as most people do, you use melted butter -- whether whole or clarified -- it depends on when you stop.  Methods of mixing, specifically whisk vs blender, make a bigger difference than whole or clarified.  So do tweaks such as adding a bit of hot water.

As to the stability question, I haven't really done an specific testing along those lines other than having made it both ways for years with no real problem with either, however I am curious as to reasoning on this issue.  Mine is that when you clarifiy butter you are getting rid of milk solids along with the water. Milk solids are stabilizers, so a whole butter hollandaise would be more stable.

 

A little off, but I find that "mounting butter" into heated egg yolks, is the safest way to bring the sauce together; and because it's so sure it's the method I most often recommend to people who (a) haven't done an butter/egg emulsion before; and (b) are looking for the silkiness you get with a handmade sauce.  On the other hand, this method doesn't make for a particularly stable sauce.  It's my impression based on what people I trust say rather than my own experience is that emulsions made with clarified butter hold better over low heat than those made with whole butter. 

 

When I was cooking in a "fine dining" restaurant as sort of "acting saucier" (a few months only and not much qualification anyway, is it?) I used clarified because that's what I was taught.  (I actually quit that job because they wanted to make me saucier for real)

 

When I was catering, I made a ton of Hollandaise, Bernaise, etc., and used ghee (clarified butter with a toasty taste) because of the flavor profile; but I didn't hold over heat, I held in a thermos.  FWIW, the thermos method ROCKS.

 

On the rare occasions now when I make Hollandaise or one of its derivatives, I usually mount whole, cold butter because it involves less planning ahead.  Not a great reason, but there you go. 

 

When making a beurre blanc, if you want it more stable you add cream. The same thing with a vinaigrette. Are there flaws in my reasoning?

 

To start with, nomenclature.  Beurre blanc with cream is not beurre blanc, it's beurre Nantais.  I'm not sure what you call a vinaigrette with cream -- "creamy Caesar" perhaps, but not "vinaigrette."  But what's in a name? 

 

The fact that you (or least I) cannot stabilize a Hollandaise by adding cream or milk because they won't emulsify into it goes more to the point that "milk solids" don't add much stability. 

 

Just some thoughts,

BDL

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post #87 of 108

I bet I can stabilize that sauce with instant clearjel.....MWAHAHAHA

 

 

Dave

I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
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post #88 of 108

WOW. It amazes me just how much you all use hollandaise that it's going on this long for so many pages.

 

51vUDST4BgL._SL500_SS100_.jpg51Md-a-%2BDrL._SL500_SS100_.jpg51JT19J7M4L._SL500_SS100_.jpg51xRSHnl54L._SL500_SS100_.jpg51Najatt-CL._SL500_SS100_.jpg

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post #89 of 108

I drink it like a milkshake man.  smoking.gif

post #90 of 108

Used the Knorr holly waaay back in the early 80's.  Swiiss Army provisions got it for free (on or past the expiry date)m from the factory and fobbed it off on the cooks' corp.   Came in 250 ml tetra boxes.  Bomb proof, that stuff.  You could cook it--no boil it-- over a paaffin burner, or use it as a base for salad dressing.  One box + 1 liter of oil and 1/4 liter vinegar.

 

And after that, I never, EVER used it again..........

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