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Government Runs Amok---Yet Again

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

Check this out: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100711/ap_on_re_us/us_wooden_dinosaur

 

And yet, they still don't understand why the Tea Party is making such inroads. Go figure!

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #2 of 14

this is nothing new. funny it involves another dinosaur though. Used to be a gas station near a fruit stand in Dixon,ca. The owner had a brontosauros statue (nicknamed Dixie) made that looks vaguely in size to the one in the story, it sat for what had to be at least 25 years in the same spot with a little wire mesh fence around the outside. When he closed shop and sold it , (lots of people wanted it) the winning bidder ended up with the problem of not being able to have it in his yard. Apparently the original owner had listed it as a yard ornament, the city or county got involved (jerks) and stated it was too big to be called a lawn ornament for the new owner. I forget exactly what happened but I think they got away calling it an art piece after the right money moved around.

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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post #3 of 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar View Post

this is nothing new. funny it involves another dinosaur though. Used to be a gas station near a fruit stand in Dixon,ca. The owner had a brontosauros statue (nicknamed Dixie) made that looks vaguely in size to the one in the story, it sat for what had to be at least 25 years in the same spot with a little wire mesh fence around the outside. When he closed shop and sold it , (lots of people wanted it) the winning bidder ended up with the problem of not being able to have it in his yard. Apparently the original owner had listed it as a yard ornament, the city or county got involved (jerks) and stated it was too big to be called a lawn ornament for the new owner. I forget exactly what happened but I think they got away calling it an art piece after the right money moved around.


I don't think he had it made, it was probably one of these:

 

sinclairdinosaur300x199.jpg

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
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Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
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post #4 of 14

lol, nope. Dixie was a bit bigger. see :

 

dixie1.jpeg

 

more info here:

http://www.frankwu.com/dixie1.html

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 

this is nothing new.

 

Didn't mean to imply it was, Gunnar. Just pointing out another instance of bureacracy gone wild.

 

It's probably gotten even worse, now, but I remember when I lived in New York it took 19 permits, from as many agencies, to legally dig a hole of any kind. It's a wonder anything ever got built.

 

but I think they got away calling it an art piece after the right money moved around.

 

There's no telling what art is. Especially not in a country whose National Endowment For the Arts (anyone besides me have a problem with the very idea of state-subsidized "art") was run by an over-the-hill foreign actress.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #6 of 14

Ever see the Maplethorpe Exhibt? our tax dollars at work.   would rather have seen chimps fling feces on canvas.

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. "
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post #7 of 14

They'd get nowhere in Vernal Utah, gateway city to Dinosaur National Monument. Dinosaur decorations of all shapes and sizes all over that town.

post #8 of 14


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnar View Post

lol, nope. Dixie was a bit bigger. see :

 

dixie1.jpeg

 

more info here:

http://www.frankwu.com/dixie1.html

 

Wow. Those poor little Sinclair dinosaurs are going to get complexes.
 

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
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Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
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post #9 of 14

IDK, while I like the notion of this piece of improvised art and the other dinosaur too, I'd have a problem if it was located right next to my property. 

Something so big that is just haphazardly constructed should be temporary and disassembled after a reasonable period of time. 

To leave it up permanently, exposed to the weather, with no plan for its maintenance or any plan that assures its structural integrity is inviting disaster. It's not inconceivable that a big storm could blow pieces (imagine 2x4s with rusty nails) of this this off, endangering people, drivers and so forth. 

 

It's reasonable that local officials would want some kind of assurance that the thing is not going to be a hazard to the public. Imagine the liability that guy would incur if on a windy day a board flew off and hit a child and handicapped him permanently. 

 

While it may seem burdensome to you, KY, to have to get the necessary permits to do whatever construction you want to do, let me give you an example of why it's necessary-

Here in the NE, most towns and villages have occupied their locations for many, many generations. In the 19th century most homes were lit by gaslight-the gas having been manufactured at a local plant by burning coal and coke to produce the gas then piped to people's homes. The MGPs (manufactured gas plants) left huge deposits of coal tar- extremely poisonous and volatile-shallowly buried adjacent to their factories. This stuff sinks and migrates all over the place and into the water table. 

If you were to start digging out say, an in-ground pool on your property, which might be located near one of these deposits of coal tar, you could easily and inadvertently expose yourself and all your neighbors to a highly toxic soup of and flammable  and gaseous materials and would be liable for the cleanup  and the damage to everyone's health and property. The permit fees you must pay cover the cost of determining the safety and viability of such a project.

To me, it's reasonable to expect such due diligence from local governing agencies. It's a lot more expensive to fix a problem after the fact. 


Edited by (Private User) - 7/26/10 at 9:38am
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 

It's reasonable that local officials would want some kind of assurance.....

 

Lynn, did you actually read the article? Even assuming that what you say is true (although I question the use of "reasonable" and "officials" in the same breath), we're talking about at least four different agencies, each with it's hand out. For instance, the town didn't say there was a safety issue, it said, "hey, if we classify it as a structure we can charge him a big fee for the approriate permit."

 

Extrapolate that out, and, there's no question, this is just another case of abusive government practices. And it's why so many people are looking for an alternative; they are tired of "government of, for, and by the people" being anything but.

 

I see that you're from New York. It's probably gotten even worse, but when I lived there it required 19 permits, from as many agencies, to legally dig a hole. Do you really find anything reasonable about that?

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #11 of 14

So your idea is to eliminate all regulatory agencies and let anyone do whatever the hades they want regardless of how it might affect anyone else? Does the gulf oil disaster not provide a good example of what that brings?

 

Yes, I did read the article. This is what scares me:

 

 

Quote:

 

A splintered 2-by-4 here, the rotted belly of a guitar there, half a ladder from a child's bunk bed here, Boland and his volunteers worked under basic ground rules: No saws, no rulers and no materials other than what was in the scrap pile.

Also, anything nailed into place couldn't be removed. And nothing was to be level or plumb.

and

 

Quote:

The Town of Thetford told Boland his sculpture was really a structure — akin to a shed or a gazebo — and that he needed a $272 permit for it.

The state Division of Fire Safety, meanwhile, told Boland that if he couldn't get a structural engineer to attest to the sculpture's safety, he could not allow people to congregate underneath it. Boland has since wound a strap around the legs to keep people from walking under the belly of the beast.

 

Twenty five feet tall and 122 feet long is bigger than any gazebo I've ever seen, and it's not inconceivable that one could be hurt even if you were standing less than 25 feet away from it if the thing fell over. 

 

I counted only three governing agencies cited in this article-the town, the DFS and the Natural Resources Board. If this property lies within some kind of preservation and land-use overlay, a 25 foot tall 122 foot long structures does represent a significant change. This thing is bigger than my whole house! These land protection overlays are put in place with advice and consent from the community. Ignorance of the law is not a justification for breaking it. All the guy had to do is apply for a variance and show that he's taken precautions to protect the public's safety-it's not that difficult and not unreasonable.

 

The example I cited is absolutely true. Our small village is dealing with a significant coal tar deposit adjacent to the Hudson River, a riverside park where children frequently play, a dense cluster of homes and a public boat club. This stuff is less than 5 feet underground in some spots. We-our local government agencies, such as planning, zoning and building departments- are liable if someone digs in this spot and releases these volatile and toxic compounds into the air and groundwater damaging the public's health and property. 

 

It's easy to look at a superficial view of an issue and use it as an example of government run amok. Take a more detailed look at the ramifications and you'll usually see that most regulations are there for a reason-to protect the public from ill-informed decisions made by your wing-nut neighbor.

post #12 of 14

Interesting article and I have to say that the "Vermontosaurus"  is one cool sculputre!

OK ... where am I going?.. and WHY am I in this handbasket??
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OK ... where am I going?.. and WHY am I in this handbasket??
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post #13 of 14

There are many philosophic and political theories that do not require regulation to control someone else's behavior. Deep pocket court cases do a pretty good job in many instances.

 

However, your specific example of the gulf oil spill is a direct example of the failure of regulation to do what it is supposed to do. There are numerous times regulators failed to do their job and where BP apparently ignored regulation.  In fact some of these regulations limit BPs liability.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Slater Miller View Post

So your idea is to eliminate all regulatory agencies and let anyone do whatever the hades they want regardless of how it might affect anyone else? Does the gulf oil disaster not provide a good example of what that brings?

 

post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 

>We-our local government agencies, such as planning, zoning and building departments- are liable if someone digs in this spot and releases these volatile and toxic compounds into the air and groundwater damaging the public's health and property. <

 

Not if history is any guide. See, for instance, Love Canal as just one of thousands of examples where government, from the local level to the federal, absolves itself from responsibility for its own actions, and passes laws and regulations they are not, themselves, subject to.

 

ill-informed decisions made by your wing-nut neighbor.

 

Sounds like most members of congress to me.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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