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When will people learn? CATERERS HAVE TO EAT TOO!

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 

  When will people learn? CATERERS HAVE TO EAT TOO!

I keep getting calls where they want a Fine Dinning Menu for casual dinning price.

First off I don't even know where they are getting my number, I don't even advertise.

All my regulars know my pricing system ,FOOD COST+LABOR COST+EXPENSES.

I don't care if they eat Prime Rib, Short Ribs or Spare Ribs, that's up to them.

When I turn my ovens on, I go to the bank with the same money.

If they want fresh asparagus or frozen, Green Beans or Harcot Vert, it's their choice.

I know times are tough but let's be realistic.Every business has to be profitable.

Now I see KFC is giving a free sandwich to competitor employees that come with their uniforms on. " I am sure that Colonel Sanders is turning over on that one."

post #2 of 45

Haven't seen that KFC thing around here, CaterChef. But that's an incredibly smart marketing ploy. Just think about it. You walk in to a KFC, and there are kids from Wendy's and McDonalds and so on eating lunch. What conclusions do you draw?

 

For you to speak disdainfully about it says more about your marketing ability than theirs.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #3 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

Haven't seen that KFC thing around here, CaterChef. But that's an incredibly smart marketing ploy. Just think about it. You walk in to a KFC, and there are kids from Wendy's and McDonalds and so on eating lunch. What conclusions do you draw?

 

For you to speak disdainfully about it says more about your marketing ability than theirs.



 I know about Nathan's giving free hot dogs to doctors who would wear their uniform to his hot dog stand on Coney Island in NYC circa 1920's or 1930's. This is not the same thing or smart but, it is something I would expect a "food writer" to agree with.

I have never worried about maketing ability "Good Food" sells itself.

My biggest problem has always been finding hard workers.

 

 

 http://consumerist.com/2010/07/kfc-offers-free-sandwich-to-other-fast-food-workers-today.html

post #4 of 45

I'm with KY on this...

cooking with all your senses.....
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cooking with all your senses.....
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post #5 of 45

It's a wonder your phone rings at all. Your attitude seems to suggest you could care less about what the customers want.  Price is always a point, it's awesome that you don't need to be competitive.

post #6 of 45

Settle down, Doug. We're kind of used to his smug, self-important attitude.

 

Notice that instead of sticking to the issue his resonse was to sneer at my profession. That's typical of everything he's ever posted here. So most of us tend to ignore him.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #7 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by caterchef View Post





 I know about Nathan's giving free hot dogs to doctors who would wear their uniform to his hot dog stand on Coney Island in NYC circa 1920's or 1930's. This is not the same thing or smart but, it is something I would expect a "food writer" to agree with.

I have never worried about maketing ability "Good Food" sells itself.

My biggest problem has always been finding hard workers.

 

 

 http://consumerist.com/2010/07/kfc-offers-free-sandwich-to-other-fast-food-workers-today.html


Being part of the Market Share is not only food ..Product, Price, Place, Promotion

 

KFC has a problem ...their weakness comes domestically in the lack of growth in the much saturated market.A major concern is the emphasis on healthy food. I will not be their with my chef coat on ...but ya gotta admit they are trying.
 

My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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post #8 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Davis View Post

It's a wonder your phone rings at all. Your attitude seems to suggest you could care less about what the customers want.  Price is always a point, it's awesome that you don't need to be competitive.



  What I have done is take price out of competitve catering. If the client wants Prime Rib  they get USDA Prime@ $11+ or if the want USDA Choice @$6+ that's what they pay for.

My Labor Cost is the same whether they eat Prime Rib, Lobster@ $14+ or Turkey @$1+ 

It is because I care what my clients want that I don't have to advertise or promote.

If you go to a Doctor for a second opinion, do you ask him for a diagnosis first or do you ask him the cost of your office call first? Personally I don't want a discount Lasik Eye Surgeon. When most people go to a caterer, they ask price first then the caterer adjusts the quality accordingly. I don't do that, My clients choose the quality first. That's what I meant by not caring about their food choice.  Price is never an issue with my clients as they know up front what they are getting and what they are paying for. I can not say what romaine  wiil cost a year from now and my clients understand that. That's why I charge the indivdual prices for Food Cost, Labor Cost and Expenses. My clients are always HAPPY.

post #9 of 45

Let me see if I'm following all this. 

 

You add food costs, other costs, labor, and your own labor and set your price accordingly?   In other words, you're rolling "profit" and your own labor and just calling them labor.  Wow.  Who knew? 

 

Anyone tell you you're an accounting whiz?

 

You think promotions involving free samples are a harbinger of the apocalypse. 

 

How about marketing genius?  

 

I refudiate your slur agains food writers.  It is too raw.  Too real.

 

BDL

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What were we talking about?
 
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post #10 of 45

This is a worthy topic, without going deeper down a rabbit hole.....how about discussing marketing....

does it help promote business to have others in your profession eat your food in their uniforms?

 

When I was marketing Clayton Farmers' Market, a major part of the marketing and advertising included chefs teaching people how to cook "market" or local participating farmer's food.  Having them show up in their uniforms demoing, giving tours, and promoting their business as well as the market.   It was a total win-win-win across the board.

 

When KFC offers a free sandwich to anyone in a competors' uniform the info goes viral....everyone wants what they percieve as a free sandwich.....mega tweets, blogs, mixed media promoting this "giveaway" plus the buzz generated....it made cheftalk's forum....  What does KFC gain?

people coming into the store, mega mention of their name, the people coming in for a freebie will probably buy a drink or something or bring someone....money will be made, a feel good deal.....

+some people will think that KFC is preferable to other fast food from this promo....silly but I'm thinkin' true. 

cooking with all your senses.....
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cooking with all your senses.....
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post #11 of 45

Very well, no rabbit hole.  In all seriousness.

 

The practice of giving freebies and/or loss leaders as promotion is well established.  It can be done well or it can be done poorly.  The KFC promotion appears, so far, to be successful.  Furthermore, I'm afraid I don't understand the down side which caterchef seems to see.  That needs some explication -- at least for me.

 

Caterchef's pricing formula is somewhat muddled in that he does not include "profit" as a specific item -- but apparently folds it into his own labor. 

 

That's not good business.  If he's at all successful, he should be operating as some other business form other than sole proprietor (corporation, LLP, etc.) for tax and especially liability purposes.  That means accounting for an annual profit or loss; and usualy a salary beyond an hourly wage as well.  Ideally, the tax burden will fall more heavily on the business than the owner, because it pays at the corporate rate and has better write-offs.   

 

If saying this is kindergarten stuff is going down the "rabbit hole," I won't say it.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 7/23/10 at 8:53am
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post #12 of 45

Actually, "shroom, it's a no brainer from a marketing standpoint.

 

When people come in and see that little girl from McDs, and the teenage boy from Wendy's, they're not thinking about KFC's campaign to get them there. What goes through their heads is, "wow. Even the competition eats here." Considering that the average fast food customer thinks that employees eat for free anyway, that's a ringing endorsement.

 

Now add in all the other promotional value, as you itemized. And all for the wholesale cost of a sandwich.

 

I was just discussing this off-line in another context. I used to work at a gas station that was the only one in the area which was both open all night and which accepted the special government fleet credit card used by many of our state and municiple agencies. Result: There was a constant flow of cops and squad cars.

 

At one time or another, every gas station and motel in the immediate area was hit except ours. Anybody here with the brains God gave a turnip think that was because of my winning personality, rather than the uniformed presence? It's the same concept:

 

Bad guy: Uniforms=cops=danger Will Robinson.

FF Customer: Uniforms=competition=this is the best place to eat.

 

Take it away from fast food, for a minute, and into the world of fine dining. How much business accrues to a restaurant with the reputation that "that's where other chef's eat?" Doesn't matter if we're talking about a two dollar chicken sandwich or a 40 dollar entree. The marketing result is the same.

 

And the fact is, as every real professional knows, good food does not sell itself. The best dish in the world goes taste free if people don't know about it. And that's what marketing is all about.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #13 of 45

well said thank you both.

cooking with all your senses.....
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cooking with all your senses.....
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post #14 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by caterchef View Post

What I have done is take price out of competitve catering. If the client wants Prime Rib  they get USDA Prime@ $11+ or if the want USDA Choice @$6+ that's what they pay for. My Labor Cost is the same whether they eat Prime Rib, Lobster@ $14+ or Turkey @$1+......

 

I can't see why anyone would have a problem with caterchef's method of pricing. In no way has he taken the price out of competitive catering. He's simply pricing at cost of materials, plus his cost of labor, + his profit. The fact is any of us can buy prime dry aged beef tenderloin at $18-24 a pound or ungraded U.S. inspected tenderloin for 4-bucks a pound. Prep cost is virtually identical. The issue becomes, does an ethical caterer charge a client for prime dry aged and sub out ungraded? caterchef removes that portion of the profit equation and for that I respect and agree with how he is pricing.


 

post #15 of 45

Just a few things....

 

In KFC my first thought would likely be... Hmmmnn...what's going on here?

 

Why are they allowed to wander the streets in a corporate uniform they could just as easily be buying crack?

 

When was the last time I let a teenager influence what I felt like eating or where I was going to get it?

 

If I did see them haven't I already made my choice rendering it a moot point?

 

If it's been as publicised as this isn't the jig up, surely it is in here?

 

Who is 'people'...if it is just a paid for illusion that I assume no-one here is silly enough to fall for who do we think would and what sort respect is being shown to them? 

 

So a 'viral' unjustified response to 'free' is a good thing?

I thought there was supposed to be no such thing as a free lunch isn't that what we are trying to teach our kids?

 

With 4% of the population and 33% of the the world's resources, the American market is busy and large enough to hide a lot of the evils of the free market but obesity is not one of them. Applauding cheap trickery that uses impressionable teens as pawns?....I'm truly disappointed. I live in a consumer society but that doesn't mean I have to believe in it...I actually think its what the hand-basket is made of.

 

As for Caterchef's  pricing this was how things were always priced until relatively recently in the history of commerce. The emphasis then shifted to 'what the market can stand' competitive pricing rather than the value added pricing (defined as offering your product at a fair and reasonable price that makes sense to the purchasing customer) which the OP tried to point out he prefers...his call morally and financially.

 

When was ad hominem upgraded to legitimate in debate? People living in glass houses should not invite he who is without sin over for dinner!

 

In my humble opinion what we say reflects more about us than whom we are talking about....

 

 

"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans."
Allen Saunders, 1957.
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"Life is what happens to us while we are making other plans."
Allen Saunders, 1957.
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post #16 of 45

One "minor point" that doesn't appear very clear in the above comments; there are two distinct topics being discussed, Marketing and Advertising, and they are NOT the same!

 

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
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post #17 of 45

I think most of us do know the difference, Pete. The OP, however, obviously not only doesn't know the difference, he doesn't apparently care. If he's to be believed, he doesn't do either. And yet he infers that he attracts new clients.

 

Makes ya wonder.

 

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #18 of 45

When I first referred to caterchef's pricing system, I think I was pretty clear that I didn't (and don't) think there is anything novel or original about it.  That post was a little too blunt and personal, so I wrote a follow up and talked a little bit about pricing, bookkeeping and artifical person business formats.

 

I never suggested "corporate pricing." 

 

A corporation or other artificial business form is highly desirable for anyone who wants make a living running his or her own business.  For one thing, it allows an onwer to protect personal property from lawsuits against the business.  For another, it creates a highly advantageous tax position.  And for yet another, it allows long term planning in terms of retirement benefits, group purchase price of insurance, and so on.

 

If you actually make money as a sole prop or other form of "mom and pop," and you're not thinking of incorporation, a limited liability partnership or some other business form -- you're either nuts, and/or working off the books and trying to cheat the IRS or some other creditor(s).  Most likely both.  It's not so much the taxes and opportunity to plan -- which should be enough on their own -- it's the liability.

 

Now if you're more of a private chef who only working small gigs out of the clients' kitchens than an event caterer, liability it's a different story.  But even then, why take the risk? 

 

The last thing you want is some SOB asking you, in court, "How do you explain to the jury that it's not fair for them conclude you were as sloppy about making food as you were about planning?"  Those questions do get asked, and pretty much just like that.  Trust me.
 

Getting back to pricing, everyone has to take the same things into account and figure out how to charge the customer for them.  There's nothing novel about caterchef's pricing scheme.  From purely business and tax standpoints, I can think of better ways to do it -- but they aren't better enough to make a big deal about it.  Anyway, his charging scheme seems to be a form marketing:  Honest Caterchef's Catering Company."  So if it works for him, cool beans. 

 

When I was still catering I used a variation of "cost plus," pricing -- which is typical of the high end.  I'd adjust the amount of "plus" if costs were either very high or very high or low or the event were much larger than the "intimate catering" my company Predominantly French usually did.  Naturally, the customer was informed as to the price structure along with the first estimate; and informed again with the adjusted final bill, if there was one.  Also, I furnished receipts if requested (once only, for a hugely expensive wedding I got roped into doing). 

 

I think caterchef was reacting to a pricing schema that you don't see much anymore outside of a few restaurants, low end, limited menu catering, or the kind of catering companies that do HUGE events for a fairly static client list -- where it all averages out eventually. 

 

There's too much competition for very many people to figure the total as a straight product of food costs times a constant multiplier.  For instance, "My bill is three times food costs, no matter what" really won't work outside of turkey-roll and lasagna catering or your doing twenty events a year for that client.

 

You only have to go online to caterer's websites to look at how menu prices see that nearly all caterers are aware that other costs don't necessarily vary with the raw food prices and set p/p accordingly. 

 

Just my $400/hour worth

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 7/24/10 at 4:01pm
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post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

One "minor point" that doesn't appear very clear in the above comments; there are two distinct topics being discussed, Marketing and Advertising, and they are NOT the same!

 



Actually it is Pete.....Being part of the Marketing Mix is ...again I say Product ,Price Place, PROMOTION

My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsy2727 View Post

Actually it is Pete.....Being part of the Marketing Mix is ...again I say Product ,Price Place, PROMOTION

Hm, maybe I've been misinformed all these years. I've always thought the Promotion of a product/service to prospective customers was marketing while Price & Place were relegated to advertising. BTWDIK
 

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
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post #21 of 45

That's o.k. Pete

 

 

 we've all been misinformed in this life at times

 

Take it easy

 

 

Gypsy

 

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My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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post #22 of 45

In regards to the KFC thing, I just don't understand the concept.

 

What is KFC trying to say?  Show up in a competitor's uniform and get a free lunch?

Is the food any better than the competition?

Is the pricing any better than the competition?

Or just show up in the competitor's uniform and get a free lunch?

 

Train a monkey with peanuts to bang on a typewriter with peanuts, and they'll do it.

 

Whole thing reminds me of a grade 6 prank we pulled one April fool's day.  We decided we would "moon" the staff room, but the staff room was on the 2nd floor.  A "moon-er" was chosen, primarily for his physique (he was shaving already) but also because he was not all too particular about his personal hygiene habits.  It took two of us to hoist him up  and help him balance on the window ledge.  The incident was a success, and we had our reputations made in the schoolyard.

 

However..... Since the teachers got more than an eyefull, they had accurately guessed who the instigators were and in the following days were, um.. "creative " in showing their displeasure.

 

So, show up in a Mickey D's uniform and get a free KFC lunch.  Somewhere, something's going to happen, and it won't bode well for the small, independant guy without deep pockets.

 

Me, I like study people.  I study them crowding the aisle-caps at supermarkets jamming disgusting corn-dog samples in their mauls , I study them in shopping malls, I study them in my shop whinging for free samples , and I study them at every trade show, of which I average about two per year, since we always have a booth.

 

One of my obserations? People are led to believe it's their "right" to have as many free samples as they want.  

 

Truth is, the customer always pays.  In one form or another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In regards to pricing?

 

I used to do catering.  Did it for 12 years, had my own 2200 sq ft commercial kitchen and  4 f/t staff, on-call list of over 20.  Had two delivery vehicles.  Had.  Gave it all up and sold the whole thing, building too.  Everyone's looking for freebies, and I was tired of playing the old "how low can you go? strip-tease.

 

So now I've got a different tactic.  Can't kill the cooking in me, so I do artisan chocolates and pastries.  Nice little retail store.  Everything in the store is made by me--everything, I only buy raw ingredients.  What I offer is unique, what I price is reasonable and sustainable, and there is no opportunity for the customer to compare me to the other guy.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #23 of 45

Ahhh Foodpump ...Bravo

                                         You are in a Specialized Niche ....so smart! I commend you! The giants actually refer the consumer to you

 

good show man

 

Gypsy

 

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My feet are firmly planted in mid air
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post #24 of 45
Thread Starter 

 Quote: KYHeirloomer:
And the fact is, as every real professional knows, good food does not sell itself.
The best dish in the world goes taste free if people don't know about it.
And that's what marketing is all about.


Reply:
Someone needs to explain that to Peter Lugers Steakhouse in NYC.
It take months to get a reservation to eat their "Good Food."
They have a website for information and history.

But it's obvious they don't need too advertise.
 Marketing  and Advertising is for trying to sell something at not "True Value."

 I never claimed  my pricing structure was for corperations,
although it could by changing the The "Labor Cost" to "Productions Cost."
For years in the retail market the status quo was buy at $.40 and sell at $1.00
Then you could sell at 50% off or 2 for 1,  and still make a profit.

Then Sam Walton changed all that.

He sald sell for a small percentage over cost and if the cost goes down lower the price.
 I am not trying to be the next Sam Walton, I am saying the client has a right to know
what all the actual costs are. If the Auto Industry posted the raw material cost plus
labor cost and expenses (app.80%) everyone would be suprised.

 I don't sell food I sell a service that prepares food that the client buys.
I don't inventory anything (maybe a little salt and pepper and a few spices and herbs)

I prepare everything the client buys. So I never run out of food.I just prepare what they buy.
 


 

post #25 of 45

How about I introduce you to Peter Luger's publicist, and you can tell her she's being paid to not do her job. I'm sure she'd get a laugh over your total lack of understanding about what marketing and promotion is.

 

Peter Luger's doesn't advertise because it puts its promotion dollars into other channels. But that's not the same thing as not doing it. Good grief, even you have heard of them. So maybe you do read food critics after all---they've written about Peter Luger's since it first opened its doors. Or maybe you form your cockeyed opinions by watching TV cooking shows---which have featured Peter Luger's nonstop.

 

Obviously you've never experienced it, because you don't believe in promotion, but there is nothing more disruptive than a film crew on the premises. Every aspect of the business gets thrown out of whack. And yet, Peter Luger's subjects itself to that disruption time after time. Must be because the management likes having the workflow interrupted, because there's no value to it, according to the wisdom of CaterChef.

 

Marketing  and Advertising is for trying to sell something at not "True Value."

 

Of all your ludicrous pronouncements this tops the cake. I suggest, before you continue with this conversation, that you look at a business administration textbook---or even just a dictionary---and find out what words like "marketing" and "advertising" mean before you use them. Then, for once, you might be talking from a base of knowledge instead of self-satisfied bias.


Edited by KYHeirloomer - 7/25/10 at 4:48am
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #26 of 45

Foodpump, I don't understand your comparison.

 

To give samples or not give them is a marketing decision you make based on its effect on your business. If you don't think it's a good strategy, that's fine. But what has it to do with KFC's decision?

 

What KFC is trying to do is project the (maybe subliminal) message that among fast food joints theirs is so much better than the others that employees at the other place eat KFC rather than their own food.

 

In other words, within the context of fast food, it's the place where other chefs eat.

 

As I said before, the principal is exactly the same, whether you're talking about two bucks for a chicken sandwich or $40 for an entree.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #27 of 45
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

How about I introduce you to Peter Luger's publicist, and you can tell her she's being paid to not do her job. I'm sure she'd get a laugh over your total lack of understanding about what marketing and promotion is.

 

Peter Luger's doesn't advertise because it puts its promotion dollars into other channels. But that's not the same thing as not doing it. Good grief, even you have heard of them. So maybe you do read food critics after all---they've written about Peter Luger's since it first opened its doors. Or maybe you form your cockeyed opinions by watching TV cooking shows---which have featured Peter Luger's nonstop.

 

Obviously you've never experienced it, because you don't believe in promotion, but there is nothing more disruptive than a film crew on the premises. Every aspect of the business gets thrown out of whack. And yet, Peter Luger's subjects itself to that disruption time after time. Must be because the management likes having the workflow interrupted, because there's no value to it, according to the wisdom of CaterChef.

 

Marketing  and Advertising is for trying to sell something at not "True Value."

 

Of all your ludicrous pronouncements this tops the cake. I suggest, before you continue with this conversation, that you look at a business administration textbook---or even just a dictionary---and find out what words like "marketing" and "advertising" mean before you use them. Then, for once, you might be talking from a base of knowledge instead of self-satisfied bias.


 

If you are refering to Jody or Amy, they are the owners.

I only meant they did not need to advertise and "GOOD FOOD DOES SELL IT'S SELF"

 

 In 1950, the original owners put the restaurant up for auction. Sol Forman bought it for what was publicized in restaurant tabloids at the time for "a whimsically low bid." His granddaughter, Jody Storch, vice president, now has the job of buying the meat for the restaurant. The current owners are comprised of Forman family members including Amy Rubenstein, the wife of Howard Rubenstein, the legendary publicist whose clients have included George Steinbrenner, Rupert Murdoch and Donald Trump.
 And while we're name dropping, let's include members of Peter Luger's famous client list: James Cagney, Alfred Hitchcock, Robert De Niro, Rudolph Giuliani, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Nicolas Cage and Henry Kissinger.
 

 "But we're in this for everyone, not just celebrities," said Jody Storch. "We consider our restaurants sort of simple but good, and we appeal to people across every economical level. We're a local, community-minded restaurant that draws clients from everywhere in the world. What we are all about is presenting a wonderful steak. My grandfather felt it was important to stick to the basics. And my grandmother, Marsha Forman, spent two years with a retired meat grader from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, studying the differences in meat quality and cut. She passed that knowledge on to the following family member generations."

 

 

Along with the sizzle, the family is in the steak business. Howard Rubenstein’s wife, Amy Rubenstein, is a daughter of Sol and Marsha Forman. In 1950, Sol Forman bought Peter Luger, the steakhouse in Williamsburg. They passed the business on to Amy and her sister, Marilyn Spiera, as well as Marilyn’s daughter, Jody Spiera Storch, who since has had children of her own.

Amy Rubenstein began working at Peter Luger a quarter-century ago. “And the transition from my father-in-law,” Howard Rubenstein said, “was very smooth. He was a terrific business man.”

 

 

 

 http://www.producenews.com/StoryNews.cfm?ID=7946
 http://www.observer.com/node/36443


 

post #28 of 45

I'm cooking today, please play nice.....as in respect each other's opinions even though they don't reflect your own beliefs......Please no personal slams. This is a great topic and I'd hate to see it shut down.

 

TIA

 mod shroom

cooking with all your senses.....
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cooking with all your senses.....
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post #29 of 45

Gee, for somebody who holds food writers in disdain, and who never reads food critics, you seem to do a pretty good job lifting their work, in toto, when you think it supports your contention.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #30 of 45

NICE PLEASE....

cooking with all your senses.....
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cooking with all your senses.....
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