Chefs/restaurants who still use MOTHER SAUCES - Page 2

In the 18th century, Ed, the same thing was called, variously, "soup glue" and "traveler's soup."

Just showing, once again, that the more things change........

I learned it as "glace de viande", and we would always make it from the remouillage.  Pour into a tray, it would congeal darn quick, wrap into 1" cubes, wrap and freeze.  A chunk of one cube would be tossed into a'la minute sauces. 

Flavour was only so-so, but the body-- more body than a room full of Miss Universe contestants......

This latest "soup glue" stuff.. is it beef stock reduced to near solid form, or something quite different?

Typical beef stock is a reduction to a degree, but since reductions are just vaporizing the water off and concentrating the flavors, it seems plausible (though possible burning is certainly of concern) that you could reduce until you have a molasses type syrup, hence my question. 

I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have.  I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up.  :)

Actually, Gobblygook, it's gelatinized. As Ed aptly described it, like rubber.

It actually depends on what point you stop evaporating; there are names for almost all the stages.

Have you ever seen Kitchen Boquet? That's about the loosest stage, and is comparble to a demi-glace.

In the 18th century they usually let it dry out even further, the way boullion cubes and powder are today. The dried sheet would be broken into hunks, and that's what they carried around, addiing hot water as needed.

Really a fun threaqd...

especially the insuults

Mike   

Great thread.

Gobblygook said : "I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have.  I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up.  :)"  

 I feel the same way.

Now help me out here, I seem to have missed this nouvelle cuisine/ california revolution thing you mentioned BDL.  How do you make demi without espagnole?  Please give me the link to your recipe.  I feel like an idiot here, don't make fun plz..

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy2727 

Well good point BDL.....I guess vinegar is the "Mother Sauce|" of Vinaigrette and butter is the "Mother Sauce" of Hollaindaise....Milk must be the"Mother Sauce "of Bechamel

 

I get it now thanks

Vinegar, butter and milk aren't sauces though. They're merely ingredients. Espagnol is a sauce though, used as an ingredient to make another sauce. Same as bechamel is used to make mornay. Classical demi is without a doubt a derivative. Demi as it's mostly made these days (ie straight reduction of stock) could be classified as a mother sauce.

When I make demi, which is pretty rare, I usually make it the old fashioned way, going through Espagnole.  My versions of both owe a lot to Pellaprat.  I've already posted a recipe, adapted for the home kitchen, on CT.  If it will make your life easier, there's a printer friendly version on my blog. 

I like the old fashioned version and have no complaints with it.  That doesn't mean the modern version doesn't have some advantages.  While it takes a little more time and care to make, and isn't quite as sturdy, it has a cleaner, clearer look and the taste is a little more direct.

Modern, Nouvelle/California demi, which the always charming Julia Child called "semi-demi," is just a straight reduction.  Again, start by sauteing a mirepoix; if you wish, you may add a tiny bit of tomato paste and make a pincage; add stock and reduce slowly.  You may or may not strain out the mirepoix at some point during the process (I would); if you like, you may add a bouquet garni or a splash of wine (I use Madeira or Sherry) at some point during the reduction process; continue reducing until the desired consistency is reached  -- usually a skosh less than 40% of the original volume, able to nappe a metal spoon.    

Another thing about modern demis is that you can use just a variety of protein stocks to make one.  Beef, brun, veal, brun (roasted) chicken, chicken, and white chicken.  I don't think I could take fish stock to that level of reduction without making it bitter, but not only do I not know everything, I'm not the world's greatest cook either -- maybe tons of other people can.  

Since a demi depends on tightening up protein molecules for a lot of its structure and lipo-protein for a lot of its mouthfeel, I'm reasonably sure you couldn't demi a vegetable stock -- at least not without some serious thickening ledgerdemain going far beyond reduction.

Greg's take on the Espagnole/demi mother/daughter relationship is awfully reasonable.  I have some abivalence about adding demi as a new mother, since it's already a daughter and the whole "mother" thing is more traditional than relevant to the way haute cuisine is done nowadays.  Not saying no, just that don't know.  Whether or not it's a mere, it's definitely one of the grandes.  Maybe that's enough.  And jeeze -- who cares about the semantics as long as tastes great and is bad for you?

Got plaque?

BDL 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisket 

Great thread.

 

Gobblygook said : "I am constantly in awe of the amount of information you guys have.  I feel like a kid stepping into an adult conversation and trying to keep up.  :)"  

 

 I feel the same way.

 

Now help me out here, I seem to have missed this nouvelle cuisine/ california revolution thing you mentioned BDL.  How do you make demi without espagnole?  Please give me the link to your recipe.  I feel like an idiot here, don't make fun plz..

Making nouvelle demi-glace is pretty much just a matter of reducing veal stock to the consistency of a sauce.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 
Greg's take on the Espagnole/demi mother/daughter relationship is awfully reasonable.  I have some abivalence about adding demi as a new mother, since it's already a daughter and the whole "mother" thing is more traditional than relevant to the way haute cuisine is done nowadays.  Not saying no, just that don't know.  Whether or not it's a mere, it's definitely one of the grandes.  Maybe that's enough.  And jeeze -- who cares about the semantics as long as tastes great and is bad for you?

 

Got plaque?

 

BDL 

I'd like to get a hold of the person responsible for deciding a heavily reduced stock would be called demi when there was already a sauce with that name with a completely different MOP. Nouvelle demi is closer to glace than anything else. Should have named it 3/4 glace and eliminated all these arguments. My reasoning behind possibly considering nouvelle demi a mother sauce is that it's not made from another sauce and it has many derivatives. I'm more than with you on not caring about semantics, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg 

 

Vinegar, butter and milk aren't sauces though. They're merely ingredients. Espagnol is a sauce though, used as an ingredient to make another sauce. Same as bechamel is used to make mornay. Classical demi is without a doubt a derivative. Demi as it's mostly made these days (ie straight reduction of stock) could be classified as a mother sauce.

Yes these are true facts you are stating Greg ,,,,,,thank-you

These Mother sauces ...Vinaigrette, Hollandaise, Bechamel ...it would make some scence to not need  some kind of what did you call it....a sauce? yes Espagnole is an ingrediant to the Grand Sauce......Demi ...Glace de Viande ...Oh what fun.....

Oh just throw the All Mighty Espagnole in there for good measure.....it's been a part of my life forever....and most chefs I hope .....I think we are spliting the sauces to thin ....oh dear let's all go and check our stoves......there are more important issues I'm sure at hand

Have a great weekend all! Stay happy and safe ....it's the last long weeekend up here in Ontario .....

Gypsy      

Having recently fought my way out of a wet paper bag I can now view this thread without angst...

I would like to point out, however, that 'modern' demi-glace, 3/4 glace viande, marmite ....does not taste the same as classic demi-glace or the more workable BDLesqspagnole even after watering down with semantics, economics or laziness...

BDL...for your amusement...

We had a well emulsified, thick balsamic vinaigrette (with no extra additives) that hung around the chiller literally months as one of those 'science' experiments...

No sh*t, we were observing and discussing it while I held the open container upside down over my head...it did not move a mm!...it can be done.

later...Mike

Yum.  Did you charge extra?

BDL

First, my new grandpa has a BLOG?  How modern of him!  Second, I read your recipe and frankly, I feel more stupid after doing so.  Every time I think I might get even a loose handle on cooking, someone goes all "french" on me, using big words that I can't even pronounce, and I get kicked back into the gutter.  While I love butter, I've never been inclined to "mount" it.  Of course, being in the rural south, my neighbors wouldn't see if I did, so maybe I should try it.  I'm thinking it would melt though, but I digress. 

While I am constantly amazed at the amount of knowledge you have and the use of proper terms, I'm guessing the best way to learn the vast language of the culinary world would be through a classic French cooking school?  I'm still stuck at "cooking it down" instead of "reducing to a nappe consistency".  Your way certainly sounds more elegant though. 

I'm still working on the first reading of McGee's "On Food and Cooking", though I've read a few sections twice as I go through the whole book, rather than skipping around to the areas of major interest to me.  I'm trying to pick up the bulk, and not the finer points at this time, so perhaps I'll start becoming more edumacated. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

When I make demi, which is pretty rare, I usually make it the old fashioned way, going through Espagnole.  My versions of both owe a lot to Pellaprat.  I've already posted a recipe, adapted for the home kitchen, on CT.  If it will make your life easier, there's a printer friendly version on my blog.

LOL.

Mounting is monter au beurre, something I probably had in recipes all over CT at the time I posted the Espagnole/Demi thing here.  It's probably described in a few recipes on CFG, but if it isn't it deserves it's own special blurb. It's one of the fundamental techinques of saucing.

What you do, is cut up your butter into smallish pieces and, ideally set them aside and hold very cold in the freezer or fridge, until ready to use, and you don't start mounting until the sauce is already otherwise finished. 

Turn the heat down to low, and whisk in a couple of pieces until they're about half way melted.  Add one more piece, whisk, and continue adding one more piece at a time when the preceding piece is half incorporated.  When the sauce starts to develop (extra) body and sheen, take it off the heat and whisk in one or two more pieces.

Nappe is a consistency.  It's a goal of reduction or cooking down.  Dip a wooden or metal spoon into the sauce and remove it.  If the sauce coats the back of the spoon, it's ready for the nappe test.  Draw a band horizontally across the back with your finger tip.  If the sauce drips into the band right away, it's not ready.  If the band stays clean for 20 seconds or so, you're good to go.  It takes a slightly tighter sauce to nappe a metal spoon than a wooden one.     

If there are things you think should be on the blog or in one of my recipes here, tell me.

BDL

Gobblygook, do not let yourself get intimidated. French is just English pronounced badly.

Seriously, there are a number of factors at work here. First off, on this particular thread, classic French cookery is a prerequisite only because it's dealing with a subject that all but defines the genre. But, in general, unless you decide to get more involved in classic French (and, to a lesser degree, Italian) cuisine, there is no need for you to learn about 90% of it.

The fact is, classic French cooking is a straightjacket that held cooks in bondage for near on a century. Nobody says you have to wear that straightjacket.

There is nothing wrong with "cook it down until thickened." And the only butter any of my neighbors ever mounted was an old mare named buttercup.

Next, what's important, if you want to become a better cook, is that you understand techniques. The whole secret of good cooking is using good techniques to manipulate good ingredents to a desired goal. If you understand the technique, it almost doesn't matter what you call it. Certainly, for the sake of clear communication, there are a number of "universal" words and phrases. Things like "saute," which everybody understands. But for every such word or phrase there are ten or a dozen that are obscure, arcane, and, in practical terms, meaningless to a home cook. So you shouldn't let them throw you.

For example. The dairy-based mother sauce in French cooking is called a bechamel. If you learned to make the exact same thing from The Settlement Cookbook, or from Betty Crocker, or, to put a southern point on it, from Edna Lewis, it would be called a basic white sauce. In French cooking you use that mother sauce either directly, or to create another sauce. If you add cheese to it, for instance, the daughter is called a mornay. In Kentucky they'd call it a cheese sauce. Take your pick.

At base, what I'm saying, is that it's easy, from reading blogs and belonging to communities like this, that classic French cooking is terribly important. But the reality is, it bears little resemblence to most modern cooking, particularly American cooking. So you either learn it or not, as you wish. But please don't think you can't develop as a cook without it, because you certainly can. Most of the world does not cook classic French---including a good percentage of French cooks.

BDL, sorry, I was making fun of your words.  I understand what both meant (well, "mounting", I gathered by context).  Nappe is the new "buzzword" on the cooking channels it seems.  Every show has to demonstrate nappe.  It's like the modern-day "zoning" of sanitation (raw, cooked, etc).  However, what bugs the SNOT out of me is watching these shows where they are getting pinches of salt and pepper from their mise en place dishes, touching the raw meat (such as flipping it), and grabbing more from the same dish.  Sure, on their show, they're just going to waste the rest of the little dish, but I hope cheap home cooks understand that and don't try to recycle the now contaminated ingredients back into the mother container.

For "mounting", they usually refer to it as "finishing" the sauce.  However, your explanation of WHAT the heck they're doing that makes it "finished" is helpful.  Otherwise, I was just going by the rule "butter makes it better".  If only you could butter bacon.... :)

KY, the problem with not knowing all the different phrases is that I can get lost and not follow along with the discussion, which ruins the whole point for me.  My biggest problem right now is that I'm a talking sponge, which unfortunately is how I learn.  The adage that you can't listen with your mouth open is certainly correct, and I try to control myself (and fail).

BDL

You've never put bird heads in a stock pot?  Would baby cow feet be off limits too?

Hi Coup de feu,

You asked,

Stock pot?  I thought you were talking about sauce pans when you wrote,

And, it was to what you wrote that I responded.

Don't confuse me with a 12 year old girl, I'm not squeamish. I buy freshly slaughtered chicken from live suppliers and use necks, feet, and combs, as well as the carcass, wingtips, and knuckles for stock, but not heads.    There's no need to make a list of the weird food I've tried and like, but take my word for it, there isn't much that wouldn't be on it.  I made a deal with myself 40 something years ago that I wouldn't be deterred from trying something just because some people might think it gross.

In this country we usually don't refer to veals and calves as "baby cows."  Cute though.  I've cooked calves feet for sherried jelly, but since I don't see them often, feel they're too rare and wonderful  for stock.  But if they were more available, into the stock pot they'd go.   

BDL

 the problem with not knowing all the different phrases is that I can get lost and not follow along with the discussion,

I understand that fully. But it's a rare discussion that uses many of those more obscure terms. This happens to be one of them. And, as you can see from the posts, there's quite a bit of disagreement as to what some of them mean, anyway. Among the things professionals on this thread disagree about: Exactly what a mother sauce is (and that's something, btw, about which there should be no confusion); how many of them there are; how some of them are made; what some of the derivative (i.e., daughter) sauces are, and how they're made.

On one hand it's kind of amusing. If you want the straight skinny, you just read Carame and Escoffier. They're the ones who codified this stuff in the first place. As you can see, however, there are a lot of people who think they know what is meant by the various terms, but who actually do not. The unamusing part is that it just confuses people, such as yourself, who really want to understand.

BTW, aAlthough he and I fight about a great many things: In general, if there is a disagreement about what a term for something is, or about what a classic term specifically means, go with BDL. It's rare that he doesn't have the straight skinny.

Keep in mind that there are comparatively few times when more than one or two of these terms will be used in a conversation, because only a handful of CT members are classically trained. In a more normal thread, if a term comes up that you don't understand, just ask. Nobody will think the less of you. And it's a lot easier to absorb them in bits and pieces than in a tidal wave. You'll also discover which are the common terms that everybody understands, and which ones are obscure. Pretty soon you'll be using the more common ones with confidence.

To be sure, there are a few members who toss those terms around with abandon, just to show off how knowledgeable they are. But you'll quickly learn to recognize those snobs, and ignore them like the rest of us do.

Too good for stock.  ;)

Hello chef, i need to know if you could help me, i need to write a paper on the chefs that still uses the mother sauces bechamel, espagnole, veloute, tomate, and hollandaise. what resturant they work in and whats the recipe the sauces are used in. do you think you could help me out?

Never mind. 

Um, IceMan,

I had to read it twice, however, I believe the request is for chefs who use the mother sauces, not so much what they are, BTA, WTHDIK
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceMan 

Here, this is a nice page. It took me maybe 30-seconds to find. As an elementary school teacher, I wish students were taught better research skills. 

 

 

http://lynnescountrykitchen.net/sauc/mothersauces.html

 

 

 

 

i need help with finding a resturant that uses mother sauces 

Try Fleur de Lys in San Francisco, Water Grille in Los Angeles.

Every restaurant what is called PROFESSIONAL must use mother sauces. Because they are base for infitive number of another sauces...

I disagree.  It is possible to have a great menu without mother sauces.  I'm pretty sure Alinea does it without mother sauces.