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Need a sharpening stone. Recommendations? - Page 2

post #31 of 54

I think the Gesshin 2000 is about as fast as the Bester 1200, apart from in general. At least on the Yoshihiro stainless it is -- which takes a lot longer to pull a wire than on my carbons. Have you used it, BDL? It's not nearly as fast as the 400, obviously, but it's really not a "take forever" stone.

 

That said, rather the reverse of your take on the Choseras... I don't have one.  It wasn't an immediate need and they're not cheap.

 

And your recommendation of the Bester 1200 is probably better, yes.  But when someone starts talking about wanting the "best" and not wanting to save so much, it should be considered (obviously "IMO" and so on, and the "my" in question is not the most experienced across a wider variety of stones or just time sharpening. But sometimes beginners can give helpful opinions to other beginners after early experiences).

post #32 of 54

Gesshin 2000, Chosera 1000, Bester 1200 -- we have to guard against our male tendency to pick flyspecks out of pepper.  That's why, in a class of very goods, I gravitate towards the cheapest.

 

Gesshin 2000 yes.  Tried it, liked it a lot.  Not as fast as the Bester 1200, at least not in my hands; and think the Bester is the better stone for the slot in most kits. 

 

Technique probably has at least as much to do with it as the steel.  That said, our techniques probably aren't that different.  KC got me to use more speed and pressure, and Jon's (still) heavily influenced by KC as well.

 

For the little it's worth, I'm backsliding towards less speed (still comparatively fast, used to be medium) and pressure (from firm to moderate, used to be light), but don't know where the process will end.  Broida's also doing a lot of evolution, probably more than me. 

 

FWIW, both of those guys like to dissolve the burr on the stone, but take a more definite approach.  That's got a lot do whether most of your knives are sharpened on one side or both.  To me, deburring is the ultimate act of sharpening and polishing is something else. 

 

Over the years, I've found that those things don't matter much as long as you're consistent with "tests," can interpret their results, and know how to act on them.  A fresh-metal, true, non-wire, sharp edge is a fresh-metal, sharp, true, non-wire, sharp edge.  Doesn't matter how you get there.

 

Jon says he has something to replace the SS 8000 in my kit.  KC actually bought it new, and sold it to me when it was about half used up and he was bored.  KC doesn't take great care of his stones, and with my use and maintenance has reached the stage where it's very iffy -- thin and crumbly (from KC's over-soaking).  Jon's stone could be the Gesshin or something not up on the JKI page.  I'll buy whatever it is, but don't get to the west side much anymore, so haven't picked it up yet.   

 

I've now got four different types of sharpening kits; oil stone, water stone, EP (Chosera) and strop.  Well, three and a half, allowing for the fact that my strop compounds start at 2u and go finer.  Or, you could say 3-1/2 + 1/2 if you count the two different rod hones.  Silly, neh?

 

BDL

post #33 of 54

I agree there's no "the best".  Those stones just happen to be to Jon Broida's particular tastes for synthetic stones.  I don't have enough experience to either buy in or distinguish my own personal tastes.  But they're among the cost-no-issue "bests" I would think, and... well, until I learn to know different, like most of us I usually adopt prejudices from teachers. (And indirectly, BDL, you "sent" me to Jon -- writing to someone else, you recommended "find someone who knows what 'sharp' is and learn from them").

 

We (Jon and I) measured my own pressure -- somewhere between 3-4 lbs of pressure is "light" -- way lighter than was instinctive for me -- but much more than that, and for me a whole lot of wobble was introduced.  I have a bit of nerve damage where my left hand, which is the pressure hand, is slightly wobbly anyway. Fortunately the "job" of my right hand is to hold the angle even, and my right hand is less affected.

 

Anyway, Broida's encouragement was toward lighter pressure and less speed, at least for me.  Less than his probably, or less ability to know when and why to bear down, certainly.  So my lighter pressure might have little to do with what he's doing at any given time.  I wish I had  him get more articulate about "dissolving the burr" -- because yeah, I think that's the right way to put it, though he didn't use that phrase; he does de-burr on cork, but not between stones.  And showed me stropping on newspaper, said he'd be happy to show me on "real strops" but he thinks too often stropping is used -- by beginners -- as a cover-up for doing an inadequate job on the stones. And I haven't invested in any HandAmerican products.  Jon's not a big fan of steeling, either; but then, he's generally using enough asymmetry and hard steels. All real interesting.

 

I didn't buy the Gesshin 2000, but I want it.  I thought it "felt better" and gave more feedback, both auditory and tactile, for my angle-holding.  Then again, I'm still very attached to the magic marker trick and checking super frequently. And will probably sooner get the Bester, myself, because I don't "need' the more expensive item.  And my finishing stone is a Gesshin.  (Eventually I'll probably end on the 8000 anyway, so that finish will be that finish.  Not now).

 

Which brings to mind... could you (BDL in particular, but anyone) give some disquisition on levels of polish vs. toothiness as being more appropriate to what?  I know it depends what you want to cut, and have seen recent talk on lower levels for pork (?) I think on Fred's; some mention that kc is stopping at 1,000 for sharpening on the job -- though I don't know if that's true, I didn't see him write it.  And we talk about higher levels.  Jon thought I'd never have ANY reason to go above the 8000, and probably would be happy stopping short of that anyway if I wanted.

 

I'm trying to sort out reasons for doing things.  I've met some guys who polish stupid-high, on stones meant for straight razors, and heard Jon make fun of them to their faces.  And they were ribbing themselves about it.  I take it that's just hobbyist obsession; I'm trying to decide whether something like 8000 is approaching that, in a practical sense, too.


Edited by Wagstaff - 10/8/11 at 12:39pm
post #34 of 54

Oh boy now you're exposing my true novice. I have to be forthright and say that my current knive set and the best I've owned is chicago cutlery. (I'm going to use them to practice on) The Masahiros are on their way. I have used stones as a young kid prob 14 years old to sharpen pocket knives but nothing since. I do have a very steady hand though, aquire technique quickly, and am adept in doing things with precision. I'm using the videos at CKTG as a learning guide and to try and keep up with all your terminology. 

 

So to answer your questions, I will be using the burr method, counting strokes (I believe thats the method CKTG shows and you all prefer).

To debur I was going to buy a felt cube from CKTG with my stones.

 

My steel is a MAC black ceramic honing rod SRB-84. I read a couple of your posts about rods. They say this is a 2000 grit. It's very handsome and looks and feels way nicer than the pictures.

 

I believe I will ultimately want a 3 stone kit, but a 3 stone fine polish like 1000-2000, 6000, 8000 (starting with the 1-2 and 6. Would that be reasonable?)

 

The MVH knives I have coming are basics: 8" chef, 5" utility, 3.5" pairing.

 

Considering I only want to make this purchase once (save for adding an 8000+) I don't mind spending $80 on a medium grit because I'm the type of person who can appreciate the super small details that most people would never even notice. With that said if you think the chosera 1000 or 2000 (not sure which one would suit my needs better) would have that slight edge in terms of 'luxury sharpening' with superb feedback than I like the idea of the medium chosera with the 6000 takenoko. Of course your expert opinion will weigh on my decision. ;) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #35 of 54

so for you the Gesshin is just silly -- it's a $130 stone!  I'll leave to BDL to point you between the Chosera and others given your latest input, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet what h recommends is still the Bester 1200.  And without your having developed very particular tastes yet to point in another direction, I would think there's no point in spending more.  (I haven't used the Choseras at all, so am leaving that alone -- it's just the thread so far I think has already answered that question!)


Edited by Wagstaff - 10/8/11 at 5:23pm
post #36 of 54

Yes.  I recommend the Bester over the Chosera.  Price aside, "net-net," I think they're about equal, with the Chosera friendlier, but the Bester a bit more high performance.  But if price is any kind of factor at all, there's no contest.  No matter how much money I have, I can't see spending $215 on a three stone kit that won't work any better than one costing $135. 

 

If you're buying peace of mind by buying the Chosera -- it's probably worth it.  But there's nothing enough better about the stone to make it worth the extra dough other than its enormous popularity last year.

 

If you're eventual target grit range is 8000 - 10000, the Suehiro Rika will serve you better as an intermediate stone than the Takenoko.  There are some major nuances when it comes to fine polishing, but this thread isn't the right place for it.  

 

Captain, when you say you can sharpen I believe you.  But I also know that if most of your experience has come from sharpening modern Chicago Cutlery you've got some surprises in store. 

 

Also, the "burr method" is not the same as the "counting strokes" method.  You can absolutely trust me on this since they're not common usage names, but mine.   The burr method has you feeling and looking for the burr; while counting strokes asks you to enough repetition to make sure you've done enough.  The first requires understanding, but will make you a better sharpener, faster.  The second is more "paint by the numbers," and is limited; you may do everything right and still not end up with a very sharp knife.

 

A MAC hone is fine. 

 

Why an 8" chef's?  Why not a 10"?

 

BDL

post #37 of 54

The 8" is just what Ive been using and I wasn't aware of any info that recommended a 10 vs 8. Do you? I don't do alot of cooking that requires a chefs knife (maybe once a week).

 

I really don''t have any experience sharpening to speak of. Like I say the last time was probably 20 years ago on pocket knives. I haven't even practiced on the chicago except fot the honing steel. I just have good precision skills so I think I should be able to pick it up. But so I don't screw up my Masahiros trying to sharpen for the first time I was going to use the chicago's to try and get a bit of technique down.

 

So your saying the only stone you'd consider in the medium range is the chosera? (I kid ;). I'm debating between bester but at least I have it narrowed down to 2.

 

I was reading about the Suehiro and the impression im getting is that with the 5k Suehiro I am going to want an 8-10k afterwards because it leaves a finish more like a 3k stone. However if I go with the Takenoko I could stop there and be satisfied, or I could go onto an 8-10k if I wanted to.

 

BTW with the light use that I will be giving them do you think I'd be safe to start with a 2000 instead of a 1000?  (ie 2000 - 6000)


Edited by captainhits - 10/9/11 at 8:32pm
post #38 of 54

Personally I would not bother with the Choseras.  Just not worth the money unless you are so rich that $200 one way or the other really doesn't make any difference whatsoever in your life.

 

The Naniwa synthetic Aoto is a very good and reasonable 2K+ stone (the grit is effectively higher if you spend some time on it).  It is roughly the same price as most other 2K-3K stones, but is twice as thick, making it an exceptional value.

 

The Takenoko is a very good stone that works very well and is very easy to learn on.  However, the Naniwa synthetic aoto (affectionately known as the "green brick" by those familiar with it) is reputed to leave a ~4K+-like edge if you spend a lot of time on it, so the 6K Takenoko that finishes at about 7K or so might be too close an upgrade if you go that route.

 

My personal recommendation for a budget conscious but still very high performance set would be:

 

1. Bester 1200

2. Naniwa synthetic aoto

3. Imanishi 10K white stone.

 

This set should get you a wicked edge.  For most knives you can stop at the green brick and already have a shaving edge.  For premium knives, the Imanishi 10K will leave a highly polished edge that will slip through things you might not even have intended to cut.

 

You might also add a coarser stone for repairs or initial rebeveling.  For this you might consider a $12 "Peacock" brand stone flattener from Korin.  Don't be fooled by what they sell it as -- it's really just a 120 grit stone.  It even comes with instructions on how to sharpen knives on the box.  The advantage here is of course that the rebeveling stone doubles as a flattener for the other stones.  At a measly $12, you might as well buy two, because if you use it to repair and rebevel, you'll have to flatten the Peacock stone itself eventually as well.

 

A step up would be the DMT extra-extra coarse diamond plate, which would also double as a stone flattener.  But this thing would run you somewhere between $70-$90.  Good news is that there would be no need to ever flatten a DMT place.

post #39 of 54

you might be very satisfied with a 3k finish -- especially for a while.  But again, reading back through the course of this discussion, I think BDL had recommended the Takenoko (which is a "true" 6000) both as befits his own preference for a finishing stone and so you don't have to buy yet another. You'll want to get good with the 1200 for a while before you're really looking higher grit anyway.

post #40 of 54

btw if Jon Broida thinks it's dumb to polish knives above 8K, why does he sell a 15K stone (and have demo videos of it online)?

 

I do agree most knives do not benefit much from polishing even above 3-4K.  But the very best knives can be polished all the way up to whatever you want to.  I don't see why anyone would because functionally it makes no difference in their food, but in my opinion, if someone wants to spend thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on natural Japanese stones, bidding against sword makers, just to use it on a kitchen knife that they use at home (the case is easier to make for, say, a famous sushi chef), it's not really anyone else's business.

post #41 of 54

I didn't exactly say he thought it was dumb...

 

It's just easy to make fun of extreme hobbyists -- especially if they're friends.  I think that was in the realm of good-natured ribbing.  And for my benefit as the n00b in the room.  Some of his customers are real sharpening nuts.  And  it is helpful to know certain theoretical limits even if you back off from them for practical purposes.  15k or 20k also for razors, for paper knives, etc.  But you'll notice he specifically doesn't have those stones listed on the website.  There's a video of the 15k Gesshin, but you "have to know".

post #42 of 54

You have to know sharpening and the sharpening community to understand what and who (Ken Schwartz) he's talking about, to understand Jon 's comments as Wag reported them. 

 

Jon and I agree about a lot of things, and we're very close on appropriate grit levels.  If you like "authority" you can throw Dave Martell and probably Murray Carter in there as well.  The right range for a given knife depends on the work you'll put it to, whether and how you use a steel, the polishing stone(s), and the knife itself -- especially its scratch hardness.  From a practical, cook's standpoint, it's a waste of time to put an ultra-polish on a knife which will lose it in a few minutes of work. 

 

Cooks who sharpen to "normal levels" (4000 and less) learn that finer edges hold up better than coarse edges.  But at some point -- say 5000 -- that's no longer true.  Also, at 3000 - 5000, steeling becomes very iffy if you want to preserve the polish -- even with an ultra-fine or polished steel and the softest, most minimal technique. 

 

Without delving too deeply into specific grits/stones for specific purposes, let me say there are nuances.  For instance, an 0.25u diamond strop can leave a more efficient edge than a Naniwa SS 8000, even though 0.25u is significantly smaller than the SS 8000's abrasive.  Similarly, a Kitayama 8000 finish goes on, looks and acts very different from the Naniwa's.  But put one over the other -- either way -- and you're approaching an ultimate edge.  Worth the time and money?  Not to me.

 

Just for Captainhits -- If you're thinking of 3000 as the Suehiro Rika's true level, you're getting that from me.  Once you get enough expertise to go beyond the basics, working the knife on the stone, creating "mud," then breaking it down with more work, it will polish at the 5000 level.  Aotos -- another recommendation from someone else -- work the same way, although not as fine. 

 

BDL

post #43 of 54

So BDL, If you were in my shoes in terms of noob with confidence in learning quickly, Masahiro MVH's ( MBS-26 stainless steel, 80/20, 58-60), very light usage, money not being a concern (within the $100 each range), starting with 2 stones and adding a third in time, for fine polish; would you go with a 1200 Bester/5000 Suehiro, 1200 Bester/6000 Takenoko, 1000 Chosera/5000 Suehiro, 1000 Chosera/6000 Takenoko, 2000 Chosera/6000 Takenoko? Please circle one (or 2). Whew alot of combinations there


Edited by captainhits - 10/10/11 at 6:17pm
post #44 of 54

I can't speak for BDL but if we're spending your money it's gonna be the Choceras.lol.gif  But I can probably say that since I've bought them all for myself.  Mine are cut for the EP but I also freehand smaller blades on them.  I have every Chocera in the line except the 600, and it's on my to-do list.  The Shapton Professional 1k is also a terrific stone.  I've never used the Suehiro Rika so I can't comment on that one.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #45 of 54

Phaedrus wins.  I've only got five Choseras (four cut for the EP).  Across the line, with only a couple of exceptions (on the coarse end), Choseras are excellent stones, very convenient and very consistent.  If you don't care about getting a good deal, they're an excellent choice.   I don't recommend the 400#, though. 

 

Speaking of which, you might as well buy a coarse stone now, even though you shouldn't mess with it until you've developed some skills.

 

If you absolutely, positively, must have "the best" and most expensive, you probably want to go all Gesshin (from Japanese Knife Imports).  Gesshin is the current trendy everything. 

 

In fact, if you haven't purchased your chef's knife yet, you might think about a Gesshin.  FWIW, Gesshin is JKI's house brand; and so far everything sold under the Gesshin name is excellent.  I'd also consider the Richmond Addict 2 (wa-handle and all).  Nothing wrong with a Masahiro, but you can do better.

 

Gonna disagree a little with Phaedrus.  I can't recommend any Shapton Pro for a beginner.  The SPs were revolutionary when hit the market, but quite a few great stones have entered it since -- most of which are faster, cheaper and less idiosyncratic.  For a couple of years, three of the four stones in my four stone water stone set, were SPs.  Although not at issue here, the SP 5000 is particularly bizarre.  I loved mine, but very few others felt the same. 

 

The CKtG "package deal" of Beston 400, Bester 1200, and Suehiro Rika is a very good set.  It's $135.  I like each stone better than their equivalent Choseras -- especially the 400 -- but there are trade offs at ~1000 and 3000 - 5000.  An all Chosera kit would cost $285 - $300, depending on whether you topped out at 3000 or 5000.  An all Gesshin kit, 400, 1000, 4000, would be faster/better and cost $285.  Whether or not you, as a relative beginner, would see the Gesshin benefit anytime soon is questionable.  But their quality is something you don't have to worry about and comfort level is worth A LOT. 

 

In your position -- which includes a fortunate ability to lay out cash -- I'd very strongly consider the Edge Pro Apex/Chosera kit sold by CKtG.  That will run you around $285 as well.  Phaedrus and I are both freehand sharpeners who also use and like EP/Chosera kits.  The biggest benefits are measured in time.  The learning curve is so much flatter than freehanding, it's particularly good for beginners seeking good results with hours -- instead of weeks or months -- of practice.  Also, you can sharpen a lot of knives PDQ with an EP.  QED.

 

If you've already purchased or otherwise wedded to the bran, strongly consider re-profiling the Masahiros to less asymmetry ASAP so they can be effectively trued on a rod hone; otherwise you're going to be doing a helluva lot of sharpening just to keep their edges true.  A little out of true might not be the same thing as actually dull, but it sure cuts that way.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 10/11/11 at 10:53am
post #46 of 54

Holy S BDL you use an EP? Im surprised but I guess that speaks for the product. I watched a couple of their videos and it looks very nice. Now you got me really considering that. What do you think about the wicked edge? Pros/cons of either?

 

If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?

 

The Masahiros are from bedbathandbeyond so they have a lifetime no question return policy. So I do have the option If I decide on something different, or a 10" chef vs 8".

 

Are you saying reprofile because when Im honing if there is 80% on one side it will be difficult to hone the 20% side to keep it true? And sorry to sound stupid but the asymmetry has nothing to do with the angle degree the knifes are sharpened at correct? It's just a larger bevel on one side? I was looking at this page which describes each edge http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifeedgetypes.shtml are the Masahiro's asymetrical flat? "The edge tapers on the straight line from both sides, but the angles are uneven. Used for more durable edges, sacrifices sharpness." What edge do you recommend?

 

BTW if you want a good magnetic knife bar recommendation I'm the toughist critic and bought this one and love it http://www.amazon.com/Epicurean-14-Inch-Solid-Magnetic-Holder/dp/B0019ZR95E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318357349&sr=8-1 Cant scratch the knife, super strong magnets (no odd spots that force the knife crooked), minimalist sleek design, and slides off for cleaning.


Edited by captainhits - 10/11/11 at 1:46pm
post #47 of 54

Regardless of ones general opinions of the Shapton Pro stones, the SP 1k is exceptional.  A very good stone!  Fast cutting, slow dishing with a very nice finish.  Even a rank amatuer can get good results from the 1k.  The 5k...that one, not so much.  Of course, on the EP all your assumptions about which stones are good may be turned on their ear.  When you have near perfect control and every stroke clears the same plane, you really begin to experience a stone in a new way- you're able to distill the essence of what it's able to do.  If you ever get in to the higher level Shaps I think you'll be dumbfounded by what they're able to do on the EP.

 

The Chocera 400 is one of the most exceptional aratos I've ever used.  The Shap 320 is in the same general league.  If you're considering the EP then the Chocera kit is almost mandatory.  While I certainly haven't tried every stone out there, nothing I've seen can compare overall to the Choceras.  Now this depends on the type of knives you sharpen and the feel you like.  I prefer a softer, muddier stone and that's the Chocera line (with some exceptions).  You may like something else.  There are individual grits where the Chocera might not be the best choice of all the stones out there, but IMO it gets an 85% or better on everthing.  There's nothing it doesn't do at least pretty well, and many things it does superbly.  I don't know of any synthetic that can match the awe-inspiring Chocera 10k.  The EP is a tremendous tool.  If your knives are double bevel, even if asymmetric, this tool will do a great job.

 

If you're dead set on freehand sharpening and don't care about the price, then instead of popping for the Gesshin right away you might want to wait a few weeks if you can.  There's a new line coming out that's pretty interesting.  I can't really say anything about them at the moment except I wouldn't buy any synthetic until these come to market.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #48 of 54

such a tease, Phaedrus... ! I won't have budget for new stones for a few weeks anyway, I guess.

post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainhits View Post

Holy S BDL you use an EP? Im surprised but I guess that speaks for the product. I watched a couple of their videos and it looks very nice. Now you got me really considering that. What do you think about the wicked edge? Pros/cons of either?

 

If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?

 



I'm eager, too, to see how BDL is liking the EP.  I haven't had a chance yet to try a WEPS (Wicked Edge Precision Sharpener) yet as they've been backordered for awhile.  I can make some general comments based on the feedback of others, plus what admittedly is just "thought experiment" on my part.

 

First off, the WEPS is considerably more expensive than the EP Apex.  It costs $250 vs about $155 (depending on vendor) for the Apex.  At this price the WEPS doesn't come with a base, either.  The cheapest base they sell is $45, with the top option being a $75 granite slab.  Of course, you could fashion your own base and save a few bucks.

 

Next, the WEPS currently ships with diamond abrasive paddles as the standard.  IMOHO this isn't the idea sharpening medium for Japanese knives.  I will say that Ken will soon be (maybe already is) supplying both Shapton and Choceras cut and mounted for the WEPS.  This will make it a very versatile and powerful platform.  Yet I must point out that since the WEPS has two paddles, you'll need to buy two of each stone- and that can get expensive.  The Chocera 10k runs around $70 each, so you're talking $140 for 2 x 10ks.  $100 for 2 x 5k.  $80 for 2 x 8k.  So on and so forth.  Of course, in theory having two paddles will get the job done twice as fast.

 

The main strength, or weakness, of the WEPS is the clamp system.  It clamps your blade by the spine, edge up, allowing both sides of the knife to be worked simultaneously.  I can see a couple possible problems with this.  First, I wonder if the clamp will mar a blade?  If it holds tight enough to keep if from moving it may be tight enough to scratch the spine.  Probably not a big deal.  The main issue is the the clamp limits the size of the blade you can do without reclamping.  IIRC, Clay told me it can accomodate an 11" blade (don't take this as gospel, Clay told me quite a while ago and I may not remember correctly).  That is enough for most kitchen blades, but not all.  I did a 14" chef's knife for my boss on an EP.  I know a guy who did a 38" martial arts sword on an EP!  He had to have a helper hold up one end but it worked.

 

Lastly, the current design of the clamp of the WEPS limits how low the angle can go on most knives.  Again, my memory is hazy but I think we're talking about 15 degrees per side.  Not bad but I go quite a bit lower than than on some knives.  Each side's angle is independently set, and while this will be a great boon in dealing with asymmetry, it's a real disadvantage to not be able to go lower than that.  Now I understand that Clay Allison, the creator of the WEPS, is working on a fix that will allow lower angles, but I don't know when it's due out nor whether it can be retrofit to the old machine.

 

I do know some folks that weren't able to make the EP work that find the WEPS to be very easy to use.  Also, it's a great tool for those with limited movement or disability.  There's a guy at another forum I frequent that's a paraplegic; he's unable to situate himself in a position to work the EP but has found the WEPS to work for him.  Certainly the ability to do both sides at once speeds things up.  I've seen microscopic images of the WEPS scratch pattern with Shapton stones and the results are impressive.  It will get a knife very sharp.

 

Now in the EP's favor:  It's cheaper to buy, stones are cheaper since you only need one, and it's more versatile (lower angles and the ability to sharpen a knife regardless of length).  It folds compactly and requires no base to sit one.  There are more stones available for it and it can be made to accomodate larger stones, too.  I personally have 7 DMT plates in the 2" x 6" size mounted to blanks for EP use.  I've used Japanese natural stones, dressed and mounted myself, that are 1/2" thick and 3" x 5" (W/L).  Stone blanks are pretty cheap and are reusable.  1" x 6" is a somewhat standard size of stones; Boride, the supplier of the OEM EP stones, makes a very large assortment of them.  I bought a Boride recently that was 1 x 6 and a half inch thick for $8 + shipping.

 

Both are great tools.  It just depends on what you're looking for.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #50 of 54

I have decided on the EP Chosera set. I think it fit's my niche perfectly. There's so many good things I am reading about it and so much positive feedback about it. With that said...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainhits View Post

If I was to reprofile the edge would I be using the lower grit 200/300/400 stones? Would it look proper or is there some protocol that the 80/20 knives follow that would hinder the reprofiling or the appearance?

 

The Masahiros are from bedbathandbeyond so they have a lifetime no question return policy. So I do have the option If I decide on something different, or a 10" chef vs 8".

 

Are you saying reprofile because when Im honing if there is 80% on one side it will be difficult to hone the 20% side to keep it true? And sorry to sound stupid but the asymmetry has nothing to do with the angle degree the knifes are sharpened at correct? It's just a larger bevel on one side? I was looking at this page which describes each edge http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifeedgetypes.shtml are the Masahiro's asymetrical flat? "The edge tapers on the straight line from both sides, but the angles are uneven. Used for more durable edges, sacrifices sharpness." What edge do you recommend?

 



 

post #51 of 54

EP:  I've only done a few knifes and my EP technique is still climbing the curve.  Along the lines of "early days:"

 

It's great for me when I'm doing lots of knifes.  I thought set up and take down would be more annoying than they are.  Because my coarser two water stones are long soakers (preferably overnight), it takes a lot less time to get ready.  Call overall convenience vis a vis benchstones a push.

 

In terms of taking a lot of time and care to do one or two knifes, I can do better freehanding with my other kits -- especially if I add stropping on top of one of the stone kits.  However, "better" here is more academic than real.  An 0.25u diamond finish is only going to last so long under the best of circumstances; and with all of the deburring it's a helluva PITA to get there.  

 

Some sort of tool and jig is the only choice if you want a very precise micro-bevel on top of a fairly precise back bevel; I'm told the EP does this well but haven't tried it yet. I mean to do it on all of the Sabatiers as soon as I'm really confident I'm making the best flat bevel the kit can do.

 

The Chosera stones cut for the EP are more pleasant in use than the EP made stones and tapes; and seem to cut finer/faster than their nominal EP equivalents. 

 

Looking at the various EP Apex prices and options, I think Kit 1 and the Chosera kits are the only kits which make sense.   

 

BDL

 

PS.  My other kits are (1) Oil stone - Coarse and Fine Norton Indias; Soft Hall's Arkansas;  and Surgical Black Arkansas.  (2)  Water stone - DMT XXC (flattener only); Beston 400; Bester 1200; Chosera 3000; and Naniwa SS 8000 (soon to be replaced).  And (3)  Strop set -- 2u on balsa; 1u boron on balsa; 0.5u CrO2 on balsa; 0.25u diamond on balsa; unloaded horsehide; and unloaded felt.  In addition I also have a worn "fine" Henckels 12" rod hone; and a HandAmerican 12" borosilicate glass rod hone.  Safe to say any problems aren't for lack of equipment. 

post #52 of 54

All Chosera is a very good set indeed.

 

BDL

post #53 of 54
IMHO as a now ''experienced noob'' lol you, me, and most others new to all this just simply over think and complicate things way toooo much.

I am finding that it is in part from each individuals personality etc, but also a result of attempting to find the best answer to this exclusively from opinion and review on the net

Trying to compare stones, their performance, and all the little differences without ever using one is tough if not impossible, but also impracticle with nothing to compare with personally.

Trust that most everything the guys here suggest is good advice (it really is) but know you really have to jump in to know what the water is like, and until you do it is all just second hand info, and not your own experience

So pick a set out (all the stones discussed have more potential than you will likely be able to fully utilize for a while) and then get busy! After a couple times around your set you will be much better preparred to discuss any additions since you will have a base to compare with

Also I really like my 6k arashiyama/tekano sp? For all kinds of reasons you will understand soon after using any of these stones lol.

Just do it!

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #54 of 54

If your still looking for a beautiful magnetic bar, the Mag Block might be something for you.

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