Bechamel Sauce

Yo Keel,

Bechamel is ordinarily made with roughly equal parts of butter and flour.  The normal ratio for a light bechamel made with 1 qt milk is  1/4 cup each flour (~1 oz) and butter (2 oz).  Although a little extra butter can be a good thing, a pound, or kilo of butter per liter of milk sounds very wrong.  Is it possible they used one stick? 

BDL

The bechamel sauce I make at home is 2-2-2:  2Tbs butter, 2Tbs flour, 2Cups milk.  If I need more sauce than what that yields,  I go 3-3-3, or 4-4-4 etc.  Works for me.  Of course in a commercial setting you might need to make a greater volume of sauce at a time,  but the ratios would not change much, if at all. 

The Bechamel sauce is a Mother sauce that is a starter sauce for other sauces. When most Chefs make a Bechamel sauce it will be a bit loose, so when making a Cheddar cheese sauce or Mornay sauce the cheese will thicken the sauce to the consistency the Chef needs for the dish.If your replacing the Ricotta mixture with the Bechamel, I would make the Bechamel a bit thicker so it stays where you want it. You can thicken the Bechamel with more blond Roux or some cheese that you may think will compliment the dish......................Take care and good luck......ChefBillyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelenorth 

You Know what it might have been ,She may have 1Lb butter & 3 Litres (Bags) of milk & the lb of butter,

That sounds better. Converting the milk from metric, that's about a gallon (16 cups). The butter is 32 Tb, and the flour the same (1 pound). Per 2 Tb butter and 2 Tb flour, that yields 1 cup milk. That's a very thick bechamel, but using it as a base for a lot of things that's not unreasonable.

 Something isn't right .If they used as you state 1 pound of butter, the finished product would have been topped with oil or butter fat from the  butter. Based on 1 qt of milk. If they used the flour in proportion to the amount of butter and only 1 qt.milk , they would have wound up with wallpaper paste not a sauce. BDL" s ratio is more in line

AmazingGrace's proportions are bog standard, just like mine.  Your revised memory of 1 lb of butter to 3L of milk is still way too much butter.  1 lb of butter should handle 2 gal (about 7L) of milk on the nosey.  Remember, you're going for velvety, not (as Ed warned against) greasy concrete.  Maybe those bags of milk were 2L instead of 1.  

BDL

i work at intalian spot and we make our bechemel wit a 1# buttter, about 12 oz flour and gallon of milk. i usually eye it out and it turn out good. dont forget the the onion pique and nutmeg. i never seen a lasagna being made wit bechemel though, we just use bolagnaise and ricotta, and a mixtureof  pecorino and parm .

Greek style Lasagna(Mousaka), seafood lasagna, vege lasagna all made with bechamel. French border Bolognaise finished with heavy cream or light Bechamel

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that within Italy, the use or non-use of bechamel in lasagne is as much regional as it is about ingredients.

It's the same thing with the use of certain cheeses in certain dishes, or use of beans or tomatoes or bread or farro or pasta, and so on. Americans tend to forget (if they ever knew) that "Italy" isn't all one thing -- it's a hodgepodge of very different regional peoples who only sort of share a language, much less a cuisine. This is why it's silly to get het up about things like the use of cheese with fish, for example, which the morons on Chopped scream about as inauthentic in all Italian food --- which means, apparently, that Sicily and Naples are inauthentic. I suspect there are people in Italy who would agree, who'd say that Sicilians and Neapolitans are not, in fact, Italian, but I don't know that we ought to get into ancient fights like that.

Anyway, yes, go ahead and use bechamel in lasagne if you like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer 

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that within Italy, the use or non-use of bechamel in lasagne is as much regional as it is about ingredients.

 

It's the same thing with the use of certain cheeses in certain dishes, or use of beans or tomatoes or bread or farro or pasta, and so on. Americans tend to forget (if they ever knew) that "Italy" isn't all one thing -- it's a hodgepodge of very different regional peoples who only sort of share a language, much less a cuisine. This is why it's silly to get het up about things like the use of cheese with fish, for example, which the morons on Chopped scream about as inauthentic in all Italian food --- which means, apparently, that Sicily and Naples are inauthentic. I suspect there are people in Italy who would agree, who'd say that Sicilians and Neapolitans are not, in fact, Italian, but I don't know that we ought to get into ancient fights like that.

 

Anyway, yes, go ahead and use bechamel in lasagne if you like it.

Yeah, Chris, i think there was a thread about it some time ago, in fact, i think i started that thread asking how ricotta got into lasagne in the states, when i've never encountered it in italy.  I imagine there is some place where they use ricotta. 

Generally, though it's made all over italy, people here associate lasagne with bologna and emilia romagna in general, but of course there are variations even in the bechamel lasagne. 

About the people who would like the north to secede, oh well.  Someone made a funny poster for federalism in italy, except they divided it vertically, east and west!

Great posts!

I had no idea italians were soooooooooooo regional till i worked for them!

If anyone has any menu  suggestions from the FURLAN / FRULANI region of Italy,id appreciate them,thanks. The word "Casalinga" springs to mind....

Is Bechamel meant to be served without seasonings, or is it S&P to taste?  The recipe seems like a bland version of southern (US) milk gravy. 

The way I learned how to make it many, many years ago was add a studded onion to the sauce while it is cooking plus salt and White pepper. A studded onion is a small onion with a Bay leaf attached to it with a Clove holding the Bay leaf. with a slight pinch of Nutmeg. I have made it this way all my life.

I use salt and black pepper (or white pepper if someone else insists) to taste, plus a bit of freshly grated nutmeg. If I don't feel like looking in a cookbook, I use 1 tablespoon each of flour and butter to a cup of milk. If a thicker sauce is needed, I make a quick beurre manie and add more fat and flour.

I'd been thinking lately of a focus for a cooking demo, and this discussion has bumped bechamel to the top of the list. There are so many other things it can morph into, not the least of which is homemade macaroni and cheese. My audience is home cooks (as I am), so I think this will be interesting to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillipo 

Great posts!

I had no idea italians were soooooooooooo regional till i worked for them!

If anyone has any menu  suggestions from the FURLAN / FRULANI region of Italy,id appreciate them,thanks. The word "Casalinga" springs to mind....

Friuli is the region in the north-east, and is highly influenced by austrian cooking - canederli (huge bread and speck (smoked prosciutto) dumplings), and other stuff like that.  I'm not an expert in this at all, just went there a couple of times and I have some cookbooks. I liked the food but it goes well with the cold climate of the alps - never felt quite right here in hot rome.   If you want a recipe for something you remember, i can look it up.  Start a new thread.

casalinga means housewife, so any recipe that's casalingo is home-style (a' la bonne femme). 

Many years ago I ate at a place called Restoranti Antipasti in Ocean City Maryland and they served what they called Timballo. It was a lasagna style dish with red sauce and Bechamel sauce. The did 6 cups milk, 2 TB butter, 2 TB flour a pinch of nutmeg and salt & pepper.

I have included a link to Foodnetwork and the recipe

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/the-best-of/timballo-recipe/index.html

enjoy

Bobbleheadbob

bobbleheadbob,

My inlaws used to make timballo - but they put tomato sauce, small meatballs, peas and tomato sauce in the pasta, tons of parmigiano and then mixed in an egg or two so it would get firm and unmold easily.  It was too dry though, for my taste, because of the egg.  It's nice if you line the bowl with fried eggplant slices. 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbleheadbob 

Many years ago I ate at a place called Restoranti Antipasti in Ocean City Maryland and they served what they called Timballo. It was a lasagna style dish with red sauce and Bechamel sauce. The did 6 cups milk, 2 TB butter, 2 TB flour a pinch of nutmeg and salt & pepper.

I have included a link to Foodnetwork and the recipe

 

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/the-best-of/timballo-recipe/index.html

 

enjoy

 

Bobbleheadbob

Bob,

Have you tried making the recipe yourself using those proportions?  That's very little roux for that much milk, not nearly enough to make it nappe, and I would think not enough to register in terms of structure and mouthfeel, let alone thickness.  The recipe amounts as posted on the FN website could be a typo.  Or, I could be wrong. 

BDL

i always use 2 oz butter and 2 oz flour(both by weight) to make the roux and add 1 qt cold whole milk. works perfectly every time.

Originally Posted by halmstad 

Perfection is in the spoon of the beholder.  8 tbs flour and 4 tbs of butter in 4 cups of milk, may be perfect will make a very stiff bechamel with some potential for graininess and clumping.   

2 ounces of flour by weight, is equal to rougly 4 ounces by volume. 

Conceptualizing bechamel quantities in units of volume is usually easier than units of weight because the amounts of butter and flour in units of volume are usually kept equal to the amount of butter in order to create a "velvet" textured bechamel.  Furthermore, the ratio of 1 tbs butter, 1 tbs flour, 1 cup milk (2 tbs butter, 2 tbs flour, 1 pint milk; 1/2 stick butter, 1/4 cup flour, 1 qt milk) proportion is a very versatile, very smooth, medium nappe.    

It's more useful I think to view it not as a question of, "Is it perfect?"   It's rather more, "Perfect for what?"

BDL

Wow!  New user onboard and very inspired to see such diverse topics with many complementary views on what works best in a variety of food types, recipes, and kitchens. I have found my Nirvana - and it ain't Teen Spirit!

Welcome, StewNazi.  I think you will find that in addition to the vast knowledge and wisdom in these forums,  you will also be impressed by the respect that the members show to one another.  I hope you will visit often and contribute to the discussions. 

Halmstad has it,

  A textbook Roux is equal parts by WEIGHT of flour and liquid fat. That's just textbook though. As said in here if you play with it you will get different results depending on what you want. Important to remember also is if your liquid is hot make sure your roux is cold. If roux is hot make sure liquid is cold. Otherwise you will get lumps (Grandma's famous lumpy gravy anyone?) lol.

 I think the safe way here would be to heat up Half & Half (milk will break/separate). The amount you will need. And then just thicken it with cooled down roux to your desired thickness. And always let the sauce simmer for atleast 20-30 minutes to lose the graininess of the flour. That is with both cooked and uncooked roux (Beurre Manie a.k.a. Redneck Roux).

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!  Dan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelenorth 

I remember them adding grated nutmeg !

I also do this always to my Bechamel sauce or even in my white sauces, this really helps sauces makes taste better. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvis65 

Halmstad has it,

  A textbook Roux is equal parts by WEIGHT of flour and liquid fat. That's just textbook though. As said in here if you play with it you will get different results depending on what you want. Important to remember also is if your liquid is hot make sure your roux is cold. If roux is hot make sure liquid is cold. Otherwise you will get lumps (Grandma's famous lumpy gravy anyone?) lol.

 I think the safe way here would be to heat up Half & Half (milk will break/separate). The amount you will need. And then just thicken it with cooled down roux to your desired thickness. And always let the sauce simmer for atleast 20-30 minutes to lose the graininess of the flour. That is with both cooked and uncooked roux (Beurre Manie a.k.a. Redneck Roux).

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!  Dan

I have experienced the opposite.  I use milk, which is traditional for bechamel.  I warm the milk up so it's hot, not simmering or scalding.  Then I melt the butter in a seperate pot and add the flour and cook it until it's glossy and the raw flour flavor goes away.  I then add the hot milk a few cups at a time and I get no lumps at all, even with barely minimal stirring with a whisk.  It takes about 5 minutes to make and I use a half gallon of whole milk, 1 cup + 4tbsp flour, and 2 sticks butter ratio, and then I temper in 2 beaten eggs.  All the ingredients are organic which makes a huge difference.  I grate in plenty of nutmeg and salt to taste.  I can eat this in a bowl like a soup!!  I just made some yesterday for my pasticcio recipe and my favorite part is eating all the remnants of bechamel from the pot.

You can also add cheese to your bechamel, in fact bechamel is the basis for any good mac n' cheese recipe.  Unless I'm making that, I like my bechamel as is, just milky buttery nutmegy deliciousness.  I pour over pasticcio or moussaka and then sprinkle the top with parmesan cheese and breadcrumbs and bake until deep golden.  Love the crunchy skin. 

It's not necessary to use half & half or cream, not that you can't, but it's not necessary.  My Mother used to make bechamel with 1% milk and by golly she was able to make it creamy as all heck, but don't ask me how!