Anyone even remotely THINKING about a "culinary career" needs to read this... - Page 2

I would have to echo jtobin's comments, and add my own. Are the high end culinary programs like CIA, LCB and J&W mighty expensive? Yes.

Do they give you a bit of gravitas when applying for a job at a place like Le Bernardin or Lola Bistro? Absolutely.

I worked under a chef, recently, who is a graduate of the CIA and, while it is not a terrible place to work, he is currently executive chef at a hot foods department at a local grocery. He is a wonderful person to work for, produces great food and seems to be relatively content where he is in his career. His own choices, however, determined where his career took him, and I think that is the case with any chef.

Work, cooking experience, and a little luck determines where you go with your career, not necessarily which school is on your diploma.

Bourdaine's article was written, I believe around the same time as Kitchen Confidential, so it does have a feeling of bitterness and anger which his book also has. I'm not saying that what Bourdaine  has said about the culinary world - the long hours, constant stress and meager pay - isn't true, but that perhaps he is missing out on what good there is in the profession.

As a future culinary student, I would hope to God that there is more in my future than working a 12 hour shift at a turn and burn operation for $9.00 an hour. If there isn't maybe I should reconsider what I'm doing. . . . .

I think tony was spot on, he explained the road he took, and the road to take for success. This article shouldn't stop anyone from getting into the culinary profession, it just shows you need balls to succeed. Tony explained how the choices you make early in your career pave the way for the opportunities you will be offered and deserve in the future. The people that succeed in this business are the ones that learned early and made most of the right choices. I have had Chefs that have worked in good restaurants with years of experience come to me for a $10 to $12 an hour job. I have seen everything Tony talks about, and have fallen into a few of these traps myself. The only thing that kept me on the right track was my passion and wanting to succeed at any cost. If you want to work in this business you have to be the best, if you want to be the best you have to take chances, work hard, think on your feet, have a high level of drive and determination, be cocky, follow through and do it. The way I got into this business was being Cocky, I told a GM and Catering Manager, if they gave me a job, I would be managing the place in 6 months, they hired me so they could watch me fail. That was my first Restaurant job, 30 years later, working in over 25 restaurants with many highs and lows, I would not change one thing. Every bump in the road Will either make you stronger or kill you, it's your choice to lay down and die, or stand up and succeed. Tony's article will weed out some from entering into this field, it will also give the more passionate more drive to take the challenge and succeed.......................ChefBillyB

I have a friend who just got out of culinary school.  He got a job through the school but was fired after the first week, because he was just not fast enough.

He is 32, rather overweight, and his reasoning for going to culinary school in the first place was "well, I like cooking, and I don't suck at it."

Well, that and he had failed as an actor.  Had he spoken to me about it beforehand I would have done everything I possibly could to talk him out of it, because to me, even before I read the article, "I don't suck at [cooking]" is a really, really bad reason.  To be honest, even being *awesome* is not that great a reason, because it is a pretty long and hard road just to get to cooking anything at all, so the "like" of cooking (notice how he didn't say "love" which was another tip tat this might not have been the best way to go)  isn't necessarily going to get you far enough in the career.  Personally, If you're really awesome, why can't you just get a job cooking right now?  If you really want to do your own thing, borrow money to start a food truck or take out joint instead of borrowing for school.  That way if you don't cut it you can at least sell the setup to someone else, or just declare bankruptcy.  Business loans can be discharged by bankruptcy.  Student loans cannot.

I am not entirely talking out of my ass here -- I've never cooked professionally but I've worked many different jobs to put myself through school, including some restaurant gigs.  It's a hard, hard life, and the payoff is not that hot for the vast majority of people.

But he's in hock for it now and I am not really sure what to do except to tell him to get right back out there as soon as possible so he won't forget what he's spent thirty grand learning.  And to lose weight (I have always told him this before I read that article just because being fat will kill you even if it doesn't kill your career first).

If you guys have any other tips, I'd love to pass it along.

Damn I'm glad that this is only a hobby for me.

my chime about bourdain...

anthony bourdain is writing from the perspective of a man in mid life (hopefully), looking back...his opportunities, his choices, his final reality. he worked at Las Halles, while not a great restaurant, one respectable enough to assuage his ego, afford his 'lifestyle', and not have to work endlessly. sex, drugs,rock and roll were the everyday mantra, remember.  we share the same generation and the planet was clearly a different place in the 70's. sexual revolution, protests, free speech, woodstock(69'), flower power and drugs...lots of them!!!   i find mr. bourdain to be funny, charming, warm, honest and insightful...plus, he's a new yorker...what's not to like?! he admits he made bad choices and that he is probably a better writer than chef, but i didn't come away with him having any major regrets really, well, with the exception of spending/wasting so much money on his drug habit...compounded over the years, its major bucks...i applaud mr. bourdain for still contributing to the world of food that he loves and on so many levels....most of all, i love the F word......

funny, funny, funny, funny...aha, gotcha!!!!!

joey

thanks pete for the link...i also applaud you and chef ed for still contributing on a daily basis...thank you both....

Both Chefs Billy and Bourdaine are right on the money. I think I know because I taught both in a for profit culinary school and in a public vocational  free enviorment. I taught the same things in both. 1 was  $ 20,000 year the  other free. Again It's not the school it's  the  student and how far he wants to go. !

One of best first jobs I ever got was I wentt for interview in a proposed huge brand new place that was not opened. Owner asked me what I paid my waiters, I told him and he said "I pay my valet parking guys more"  I said to hi "well that makes me smarter then You"" He said to me YOUR HIRED. that association lasted many good years..

Well, I told him that he would do well just to get line and prep experience.  Hell volunteer at a soup kitchen if he needed to, as long as he can get a lot of volume done and increase his speed.  I think the worst thing to do there is to sit on his ass in the meanwhile because that would just make him slower the next time.

But the one thing I never had to heart to tell him is that he may or may not even be suited for professional cooking.  Hobby cooking doesn't always translate well into the pro kitchen, and going into debt to go to chef school without ever having gotten any experience in a pro kitchen first is in my opinion a really, really foolhardy thing to do.  And the pay...  Just like you said -- fact is it's a business and the less they can pay their people and still keep the good ones the better the restaurant does.  So the returns on the investment would be very small for a good long while.

I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing.  I'm just saying that I completely agree with Bourdaine that given what people get paid starting out and how low the success rate is, going thirty grand into debt just to get into the business is something that should be considered with great caution.  If someone can tale it for free, more power to them.

Can anybody elaborate a bit on what he was saying about hotel chefs? What specifically does he mean?  I mean, you go to large resorts and you see a good dozen restaurants in them, is he talking  about chefs that work in those restaurants or more along the lines of... maybe room service...or... I have no idea what else a hotel chef might do.  I know the resorts near me, many of the cooks for them have union jobs. I think of how hard of work I do with no breaks, no benefits, low pay and all, and I think "WTF? UNION? What a bunch of prima donas!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by durangojo 

my chime about bourdain...

anthony bourdain is writing from the perspective of a man in mid life (hopefully), looking back...his opportunities, his choices, his final reality. he worked at Las Halles, while not a great restaurant, one respectable enough to assuage his ego, afford his 'lifestyle', and not have to work endlessly. sex, drugs,rock and roll were the everyday mantra, remember.  we share the same generation and the planet was clearly a different place in the 70's. sexual revolution, protests, free speech, woodstock(69'), flower power and drugs...lots of them!!!   i find mr. bourdain to be funny, charming, warm, honest and insightful...plus, he's a new yorker...what's not to like?! he admits he made bad choices and that he is probably a better writer than chef, but i didn't come away with him having any major regrets really, well, with the exception of spending/wasting so much money on his drug habit...compounded over the years, its major bucks...i applaud mr. bourdain for still contributing to the world of food that he loves and on so many levels....most of all, i love the F word......

funny, funny, funny, funny...aha, gotcha!!!!!

joey

thanks pete for the link...i also applaud you and chef ed for still contributing on a daily basis...thank you both....

If it is in fact a new generation then how come of the last 6 guys who applied for cooks and line cook jobs I had . 5 of them failed the drug test?? You can't blame a generation for ones individual life style choices. They chose it of free will.

LOL. Crack Me Up!!!

OK. So what you're saying is that given the chance to make everything in your career better and beneficial to you, you wouldn't jump like an angry kangaroo on a hot-plate, for a chance to join a union? Hhhmmmmmmmmm ........................

Uh... 'scuse me, but wtf is a Union gonna offer?

$38.99 /hr?  Yeah sure, and for one 4 hr shift per week until you pass the arse-kissing exam, a.k.a.. the "seniority"  where you "qualify" to earn 1/2 of the stated Union rates IF you an work a minimum of 160 hrs/mth and not exceeding 164 hrs per mth, (whic no one gets unless they're a brown noser or a relative of the shop steward) and that will "qualify" you to next earn 2/3 of the stated Union rates. And so on and so on...

Don't "qualify"? Then you get A  4 hr shift per week or maybe a max of 16 hrs per week.  P/t get nothing else, no benefits, no nothing, and are "not entitled" to any Union representation for a min. of 3 mths, and in some cases a max of 9 mths.  "Course, their paychques are garnisheed, regular as clockwork, but I'm digressing here, aren't I?     (Deleted)-ing hell, P/t ers won't even get invited to the annual Christmas party or BBQ unless they're told by the shop steward that such things actually exist. 

For (deleted)'s sakes, 90% of the employees I've hired in the last 10 years have been "Union" boys looking for a way to make rent all the while holding on to their precious one or two shifts per week at the Union place, waiting until someone dies and leaves a slot open to move up.  Quite a few guys have held on to 2 or even 3 p/t jobs.

WOW!     Just a little bit testy there huh?

Do you watch the news or read a paper? Are you at all aware of what is going on in the United States at all lately? If not it's OK. But still ..........

Levity  from:  

I really dislike the way he is saying the older are out of luck and are so slow.  I know this doesn't fit every person of an older age, but look at Jack Lalanne,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne#Timeline:_LaLanne.27s_feats 

Not every 40 year old is some fat and slow worker. 

I am quite young (16), but I love cooking.  I don't think I will be some star chef, but I would really enjoy being in a nice restaurant.  I wouldn't care if I had to beg my way in to scrubbing dishes and cleaning the kitchen.  Just to be around the culinary dishes.  Going to culinary school would pretty much be out of the question, cost would just be too much. 

Yeah Iceman, just a wee bit testy on that subject.  Things might be different in the States, and for all you guys out there I hope so, but over here hosp. Unons are just a sham for garnisheeing paycheques.

Two years ago the Prov. Gov't was overhauling it's  rules for the classification and benchmarks for "Cook".  What they came up with was a period of schooling, followed by a number of hours in the workplace (cook 1), then repeat for Cook 2, and then again for cook 3, which lso includes a batttery of written tests as well as a practical.  The Community colleges bought in, and since have redesigned it's culinary courses to meet with the new requirements, seveal of the private schools bought into it as well.  All Unions were also invited to "buy in" into the program, only one (1) did so.  The benefits are enormous, as with each progression a pay hike follows, as well as a cast iron- brass bound standard to base a "Chef" classification later on.

Ya'd figure by now they'd have thunk that there's two ways to make an employer pay more:  Put a gun to his head, or to offer a set of benchmarkes and standards to base a pay scale on to

Nope, it's "Seniority rules" and Garnishee the sucker's paycheck and tell 'em they ain't elligable for diddly-squat even though they've been paying  for X years.

I need a beer now...............

Gordon Ramsay. Dont know how old he is, but he's starting to look old. Hyper active and quick while he's working.

Edit: Please refrain from using obscenities in the forums. Thank you!

Unions  My Take.  Being from NY I have dealt with many unions.. In their day they were good as they stopped employees from being exploited. Those days however are over. The restaurant and hotel unions in NY were controlled by organized crime. All they did was collect initiation and dues from employees and threaten employers.. Many a union officer was indighted and convicted of all kinds of things. The unions basicaly Killed The Hen That Laid The Golden Egg. I  have never joined one although approached. My answer to them was I do not need you. you need me.

"Join" a Union??????

Ya don't.

It's kinda like buying a dog that has fleas:  Want the dog, ya have to take the fleas, don't want the fleas, don't buy the dog.

You don't have a choice, if you work in a "union shop" you are a member.  Every place that I've worked in had this policy, and none of them even offered a form of recognition, ie a "Union card", just those alphabets and deductions on your paycheck. Heck, some of them didn't even have a shop steward, and none of them ever provided you with a  financial statement--just to see where your dues actually went to.

Heard in Vegas and in other places now you have the option of not being a union member--but they will still garnishee your paycheque, in that matter you have no choice..... 

Quote:

Originally Posted by chefedb 

If it is in fact a new generation then how come of the last 6 guys who applied for cooks and line cook jobs I had . 5 of them failed the drug test?? You can't blame a generation for ones individual life style choices. They chose it of free will.

 

chef ed,

it is not my intent to totally blame a generation for AB's drug use and addiction.....just sayin...

coke and heroin in the 70's were very socially acceptable. kitchens are high stress, high energy and exhaustive, and i am surprised we didn't lose more young talent to the harsh mistress of drug addiction. most chefs were messed up on something, while maybe not while working, very soon afterwards...again, it begs the question...enviornment or genetics? AB was a young chef fresh out of culinary school who believed he could have it all...yes, it was his free will, his choice...he was wrong...he admits that. the trappings that go along with being a cocky young chef in a highly intense and constantly energizied field were just too hard to resist...as i said before, coke and heroin had social approval in the 70's in new york. no one makes stupid mistakes like the young...don't you remember?

while not wanting to discuss the politics of legalizing marijuana, what about alcohol? if chefs of your generation were made to take a piss test for alcohol, i would bet that most would not have passed...alcohol then, pot now....difference is that pot stays in your bloodstream for 30 days, alcohol just a few. so while your chefs are not working high, they can still test positive for something they ingested 3 weeks ago....stupid test....i am not advocating drug or alcohol use, but people should be able to 'medicate' themselves however they want on their own time, without repercussion. drugs and alcohol are a very real part of cooking/working in a high stress industry...not for all, but most....

joey
 

Edit: Please refrain from using obscenities in the forums. Thank you!

Mmmmm....

I guess the fine dividing line is when you need a beer or a joint or whatever.

That being said, I have never seen a person develop to their full potential when they need a drink, pot, or whatever.

* Please Note:

Twice in the last (5) posts the ever-famous "F" word has been used (I'm not talking "Food" either). Now for all general principles I have absolutely no problem with the use of that type of vocabulary. My problem is with being called out twice for saying things less offensive, both of those times I was issued an infraction. I'm not calling anyone out here because I have no interest in moderation. I do have an interest however in regularity and consistancy.

OK. I'm done. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Ice Man: I edited the posts of the individuals for their use of language. I do the best I can to keep on top of the language issue (and try to be consistent as possible). I am sure you can appreciate that it is difficult to constantly monitor every post every hour of the day.

I don't do drugs (never have) Don't drink(used to have a baileys once in a while) Don't curse    Maybe thats why I was able to retire at 40.

sounds ideal...

joey

Yeah-butt, Iceman, what was the content of your post?

soo, as not to beat a dead horse, i will comment  about another part of bourdain's article....AGE....he is totally right that age makes a difference in the kitchen and anyone who doesn't admit to that isn't being completely honest. the day in-day out physical demands on one's body is huge and very,very real...fatigue/sleep deprivation is a real killer as well as standing for long hours, bending, heat, heavy lifting all before having to move lightening fast during service. this ain't kitchen aerobics...it's real,it's constant and it's relentless, which definitely takes it toll over time... as a small agile woman i move pretty darn fast in a kitchen,and still can and do do circles around most, but i can tell you that it ain't as easy breezy as it use to be...after about 10 days of the constant barrage on every muscle in my body, i cry 'uncle'...atleast for a few days...and it takes every minute of those 2 days to recover before the next onslaught...mind you, i am not complaining..just sayin it's harder and it hurts more.......to whomever posted the question about whether shear hard sweat is enough to become a successful chef, i say no, it is not...imo, you MUST have talent....hard work is just not enough and if you are planning on opening a restaurant without talent, you will fail.....okay, anybody got any good news?

joey

Yeah-butt, foodpump, what is the point of your question? 

The world is a much different place than what Tony talks about working the restaurants in NYC. He was talking about front line cooks, kicking ass together, getting off from work at midnight and drinking until 6AM in the morning. I wouldn't think most people that work in this business cant relate to Tony's life style. These are the line cooks that probably know more than most Chefs know abut this business. I'm talking about people that work in the trenches together, have each others back, and party the night away. I don't think a morning deli worker or Hospital cook would even know this kind of  life exists............ChefbillyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceMan 

Yeah-butt, foodpump, what is the point of your question? 

Point of my question?

I want to know your opions on unions.

If you're for them, I'll just have a friendly chat with your bank manager and help myself to a slice of your paycheque every month, and if you even so much as whine a bit, I'll tell you to go stuff it.

What's happening in Wisconsin is what's happening in Wisconsin.  Yeah, yeah, here in CDN we get "Wolf" (tm) (r) brand TV/news that depicts all Americans as fire breathing axe murderers.

Butchyasee, All unions are not the same. I know for a fact that some, and indeed many Unions actually do some good.  That isn't the case with Hospitality Unions.  Please don't believe me and trott down to any major Union Hotel and ask for a copy of the Union Handbook.  Lots to learn in there.  Ask for an audited financial statement, and you'll get told two things:  They don't have to (False they do, by law, but never have) and two, You're getting your shifts cut down to 4 hrs per month.

So, your opinions on the subject?

Reading Is Fundamental. A very simple concept. Try reading what is in front of you for what it is, and don't read anything into it that is not there. I made a joke about joining a union. A reply was made that seriously counterpointed my joke. I explained that I was making a joke. That's it. What more needs to be said? Am I missing something here?

I fully support and belong to two(2) unions. Neither of which are part of the food-service industry. If belonging to a union doesn't suit your style or needs then OK. I used Wisconsin as part of a joke. I'm sorry if that all went past you. Saying that you would go to my bank for part of my paycheck sounds kind of stupid.

Have you any more questions of me?

Ah, I see, a joke.  O.k. then.

I've only worked in the hospitality industry for my entire life, many of us on this site have as well.  None of us have many nice things to say about hosp. unions, and many of us have had negative impact on our lives becaue of them.  It isn't much of a joke.

I urge you to get a hold of a hospt. union handbook and have a good, uh... "read".

Since I don't share your particular sense of humour, perhaps you could use one of those emoticons when you joke around?

Time to keep it professional, please! Either contribute in a constructive and RESPECTFUL manner or move on.