Another "help me pick the best Japanese Knife" Thread

The MAC Pro is pretty spectacular too. BDL will be along to give you comparative information, I'm sure.

As to length, 10" is pretty much the ideal length for this style of knife. The question is whether it has any particular drawbacks for you. You say you have large cutting boards, which helps. Do you have any clear space behind them, or is your cutting space cramped lengthwise? If so, can you move that stuff aside a bit?

In the end, I tend to think you should go 10" unless there's some reason not to. When you're looking at knives in this quality range, and you seem very uncertain about length, there's apparently no reason not to go the whole hog and get 10". With knives this light and agile, you will soon not feel the length to be excessive.

Length:

21cm doesn't punish bad skills, but doesn't reward good ones either.  27cm rewards good skills, but it can be something of a bear learning to point (although you certainly can learn if you practice keeping the point in line with your wrist and elbow).  24cm (9-1/2") is a nice compromise; productive without being too demanding. 

I prefer 27cm, but don't think that should sway you.  We can talk about keeping the blade straight in another post if you like, and we should.  It never hurts to tune up one's skilz.

Laminated aka "San-Mai" aka "Warikomi?" Or, "Monosteel?"

Japanese made blades are often made in three layers:  Jigane-Hagane-Jigane.  The cutting edge steel is the "hagane."  The ad copy for laminated blades often talks about it in terms of sharpening or other positives for the user.  In truth, all but one of the practical advantages go to the manufacturer.  Because it's a surer method with fewer failures it's less expensive and manufactuer and the price advantage is passed on to the consumer.  Also, it allows the manufacturers to use pattern-welded jigane to stick Damascus style patterns to the blade. 

Most of the knives you've listed are san-mai.  It's no big deal one way or the other, except insofar as you want good advice from me.  San-mai knives have a sort of muted, "dead" feeling to me and a few other people.  It's not a majority opinion, nor is it all that rare.  There's no need to justify my feeling -- and I won't.  But it's fair for you to know, and also that it has a lot to do with how much I don't know about many of the your chosen blades.  

You have an interesting mix of wa and yo handled knives.  Some of your choices come both ways, and you didn't specify. 

With that out of the way...

JCK Hattori FH Gyuto wa and yo:  Beautifully designed and made.  Wonderful F&F.  Very good handle, just a half step not as good as a MAC.  Very nice profile, just a half step not as good as a Masamoto VG.  Thin, easy to sharpen blade, good edge retention, easy maintenance.  Hattori does the best VG-10 on the market, with no deburring issues. 

Masamoto VG wa and yo:  (You referred to it as the JCK Masamoto).  Fantastic profile.  With the exception of a Sabatier nothing feels as natural or as comfortable on the board.  Excellent everything else, if not spectacular.    You'll have to communicate with the seller before purchase because to avoid some QC issues. 

JCK Original Kagayaki Aogami Super, wa:  Don't know anything about this particular knife.  My experiences with aogami san-mai weren't happy, but... it's not an unpopular construction and lots of people love it.

Kagayaki is JCK's house brand name, the knives are actually built OEM.  The other Kagayakis are very high value, there's no reason to expect that this iteration is otherwise.

Ichimonji TKC, yo:  It is no more, yet it lives.  The knives are now sold by Chef Knives To Go (CK2G) as the Kikuichi TKC. 

Another knife with which I have no personal experience (you're amazing that way, dude!).  They have great buzz with a fantastic reputation for holding an edge.  Everyone's comparing it very favorably to an Aritsugu "A," saying it's just as good without the issues.  

For obvious reasons, I can't break the knife down the way I do with knives I know into profile, edge characteristics, feel and handle.  Oh well.

Takeda Gyuto, wa:  I don't like san-mai, and I don't like kuro-uchi (the rustic, black finish), and I don't like really flat profiles .  But if I did, I'd like this knife a lot.  Very thin, very well made.  Easy to sharpen, gets sharp, holds an edge, doesn't wedge.  The profile is well suited to "push cutting," but not quite as helpful to classic European technique as a Masamoto or a MAC.   Still, it's not too exaggerated to prevent it from doing what you want. 

There are other makers who do almost the same thing, almost as well, for less. 

Kikuichi Gold Elite, yo:  Kikuicihi gets a lot of mileage out of names.  Judging  by the price, you're referring to this one:

In addition to the san-mai, I don't care for tsuchime (hammered) or suminagashi ("damascus look") separately, and like them even less together.  I know just enough about the handle and profile to say they're good, but not enough about the blade itself to comment.  Expensive for a VG-10 san-mai sandwich.  Taken together, the whole thing makes me too grumpy for you to trust.

Shun Elite, fusion:  Excellent QC, F&F and US support.  Made with SG2 in san-mai.  As PM alloys go, SG2 is pretty good, at least it's not super-chippy; but all PMs, including SG2, are overpriced and over-hyped; and the extra hardening PM allows doesn't provide any practical advantages. If there's a worse gyuto profile, I don't know about it.  Run away.

MAC Pro, yo:  Chris warned you.  I recommend this knife more often to more people looking for their first quality, Japanese made knife than any other.  It's a little stiffer than the Masamoto VG, with a slightly better handle.  Actually, the MAC handle has got to be the best of any western style handles, so "slightly better," is a big bouquet to both knives.  The profile is a little wider and only slightly less good than the Masamoto's.  It's edge characteristics (including "feel" on the stones), are identical to the Masamoto's, and I believe they're the same alloy.  Very good F&F as Japanese knives go, usually good QC, a warranty and support which competes with Shun, and service and support that exceeds it (in case the QC fell through).

Side Trip to Sharpening:

Chris is right about the money.  Bernal offers "Japanese Waterstone Sharpening Classes."  Take one and see what you think.  It can be done relatively inexpensively but from what we're learning about you and knives -- still going to cost a fortune.

Halfway to the Bottom Line:

If you're seriously interested in wa handles we should open the discussion to a few more knives.  Still, if you want a good performer that's got a super Japanese, country look, and don't mind putting up with its idiosyncracies, you could do worse than the Takeda.

If you want a yo handled knife the best choices from a performance standpoint are the Hattori FH, Kikuichi TKC (at least by reputation), MAC Pro and Masamoto VG.  They all have different things to offer.

Why don't you talk a little more about what you want in your knife? 

BDL

   Hi Dan,

  I can't give you advice on which knife to purchase.  Chris, BDL and others are in a much better spot to give you advice in that area.  As a knife "newbie" I will say that I think it's wise to look into this first knife purchase as a package deal, knife and stones.  If the stones include a sharpening system then that's fine...but look at your initial knife purchase including the initial stone set.  If you have $400 to spend on everything then look at it for everything.

   dan

  Oh yeah

  Set some money aside for a good end grain cutting board too.  You'll also want to season it well.  At first it will soak up a ton of conditioner, keep adding it as it gets absorbed.  Once it feels like it's slowing down and not quite as "thirsty" you can start conditioning every week or so...then every couple of weeks and so on.  But the thing cleans so well when it's conditioned there's no reason to fall behind.

  in fact...I'll be back.  I've got something to do!

   take care,

 dan

Hi Dan,

For western-handled stainless chef's knives, it really doesn't get much better than MAC Pro and Masamoto VG in terms of practical utility.   MAC is particularly good for its handle and stiffness, Masamoto for its brilliant, Sabatier-like profile, and overall good "feel."  Don't worry too much about the MAC's looks -- the unbelievablly ugly, screened-on labeling wears off with cleaning.

The Hattori HD is at about the same level from a performance standpoint as the MAC and Masa, but the handle, profile and feel aren't quite as good as either of those.  Whatever the secrets of VG-10 are, Hattori has figured them out.  Like nearly all VG-10 knives, the HD takes a great edge; but unlike so many of them, it deburrs easily.  It's thin (a good thing, makes it act sharper whether or not it is or not), with good agility and a reasonably good handle.  F&F are as good as a high-end German knife's.   

On the other hand, the "Damascus" finish requires extra care, otherwise it will disappear as it scratches; worse, I don't like it anyway.  But from my perspective, the worst thing is that it's san-mai (aka "cladded").   It's certainly not universal, and not even a majority viewpoint, but all cladded knives feel "damped" to me.  A friend compares the feel to wearing a condom -- which is unfortunately apt.  You may not feel the same way, most people don't. 

You can spend more and get more, but the MAC/Masa price range is where the Law of Diminishing Returns starts kicking pretty hard.

But because you asked, allow me to copy this from my recent post to JP, 

Among those three, I'd chose the Tad.  Third from the bottom is the 27cm, fourth is the 24cm.

Just another knife, really.  But if you're serious about "like air," thin is where it's at, and the Tads are very thin.  So are the Hattoris.

Before you start limbering up your credit card, it might be a good idea to assess what the extra money is going to buy within the framework of your actual priorities and knife skills.  If you're all about buying the best or the best looking, go large.  Otherwise, the high-middle of MAC and Masa should do you proud.

With that out of the way -- if you're really interested in "the best," we should talk about non-stainless "carbons" and wa-gyuto (Japanese handled chef knives).  That's where the high end, semi-customs really live.  You might be especially interested in the "lasers" like Tadatsuna, Sakai Yusuke, and Suisun Inox Honyaki, etc.  

Since you have to ask you might as well learn that true customs are in the "if you have to ask" category. 

My own next knife which should be here in a couple of weeks is a "laser;" it's a semi-custom, semi-stainless 27cm Konosuke HD wa-gyuto.  (You can't see from the picture, but the handle which appears short and stout has a buffalo horn ferrule on the back as well as the front and is actually long and lean.) 

Take a gander:

Hope this helps,

BDL   

Originally Posted by saabracer23 

Value is how you perceive it.  Boardsmith makes the best boards you can buy, and not for the most money.

Right now there are a lot of Catskill boards on sale here and there -- including Macy's and Home Depot -- which are very nice and not very expensive.  If you can afford one of David's (Boardsmith) boards with all of your other purchases, that would be a first choice.  Otherwise get a Catskill now and add one of David's later.  Having two good boards is too nice.  Not only does it mean two cooks is not too many, they last longer (boards not the broads) if you give them a chance to rest once in a while.  

Best woods?  Too many to list.  More a matter of what to avoid.  You want to watch out for Asian made boards made with cheap or very hard glue and/or are treated with inedible oils.  One of our four primary boards is bamboo.  It's not horrible.  It is a little hard and does blunt knives more quickly than our maple and cherry boards, but it's not nearly as bad as I was afraid it would be -- not horrible at all.

BDL

Hello Dan,

"Better" is contingent on a lot of things. 

For one thing, I can't seriously consider stainless compared to carbon or HSS.  I think the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto and HC yo-gyuto might be the best all-around chef's knifes there are, and if I were only going to have one chef's knife, it would be one of those.  But since I already own one of the few other of best all around chef's (K-Sabatier au carbone), repeating the experience isn't much of a priority.  If I were only going to have one chef's knife it would probably be one of the carbon Masamotos.

They're definitely more flexible; you feel it if you bring your blade down on the board off-square; and they feel more fragile.  I'm not sure if they actually are -- and anyway you certainly want a heavy knife around for the rough stuff with almost any Japanese knife.  But thinking twice before you crush garlic?  I haven't used them enough to find out if you get over your inhibitions.   

Let's hope so.  Like everyone else I want a lifetime knife, but there are other things going on with my choices that might not be with yours.  For instance, I'm not unhappy with my Sabatier -- just bored, and wanting something very different.  As someone who writes about and reviews knives, it seemed a good idea to actually own something that wasn't carbon and had a slightly more modern profile, and was made in Japan.  

They're similarly priced compared to the Masamoto KS and the Tad Inox and Shiro wa-gyutos.  You're right.  At this type of money, a few extra bucks doesn't matter that much anyway.  

OK, wa-handles, paradigm shift.  Cool!  

The Tad is much more of a known quantity than the Konosuke; but they're supposedly very similar in terms of profile, workmanship (very high!), thinness (the Tad is a skosh thinner), and just about everything else. 

The Tad has a wider handle and that's better suited for people who hold a knife at all tightly; but f you use an "Asian" pinch (pinching the blade behind the ferrule) or a very soft pinch (like me) that's not going to make much difference -- I fooled around with a Konosuke in a parking lot for ten minutes and it seemed very comfortable to me.   

Tads are available in G3 and White #2.  Konosukes come in some sort of Swedish "Inox" (19C27?  AEB-L?), White #2, and an HSS tool steel they call "HD."  From what I understand Tad's stainless is better than Konosuke's, it's a push on the shironiko (white), and the few people who've tried the HD are delirious about it.  It supposedly feels like carbon on the stones (smooth), gets as sharp as White #2 and almost as sharp as White #1 (that's really, really sharp), and holds the edge prodigiously.  

So, yeah.  I'm jazzed.  Mine should probably show up late next week.

The big downside on the Konosukes is that they're very difficult to get a hold of -- especially the HDs.  I'm getting mine from Chef Knives to Go.  Mark supposedly has a few knives coming in soon, but they may all be pre-sold.  I don't know, you'd have to ask him.  The only other US dealer is Jon Broida of Japanese Knife Imports.  He's out of stock, and all I know about his next shipment is that it should come some time in the next three months.  Konosuke is a new company, and their popularity seems to have taken them by surprise.  They are back-ordered, adjusting to their success, and delivering as fast as they can.   

On the other hand, if everyone's out of stock you can order one and change your mind with impunity.

If money is any issue at all, you should assess your skills as a sharpener and as a cutter and ask yourself if you're really going to get bang for the buck at these stratospheric prices.  There are certainly more than a couple of really good wa-gyutos for less; Sakai Yusuke has a very good rep, for instance.   But if you're one of those people who just wants "the best," and can afford it, or you have or plan to develop the skill set, why not?

What do you think about all this?  Does it make sense?  Are your choices becoming clearer?

BDL

270 white 2 tadatsuna wa gyuto is my go to blade.

I disagree about it's profile being nearly as good as masamoto I feel it's a wash both have their pluses. the masamoto is a smidge heavier duty the tadatsuna is a little heroin chic. The tadatsuna cut's better than my masamoto hc. Both cut great don't get me wrong just the tadatsuna is ever so slightly better

regardless of what you choose sharpening is more important than what knife you pick a dull $400 knife is not better than a dull $80. Most highend Japanese knives come dull as well.

Just one last plug for the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto.

My feeling is that you are new to sharpening, and while the EdgePro will certainly have you doing wonderful things in remarkably short order, I've never heard anyone seriously disagree that this knife is truly a pleasure to sharpen, more so than just about anything else, in fact. You will very quickly see the effects of anything and everything you try in sharpening, and will enjoy the process --- by no means a foregone conclusion in sharpening! I have a fair collection of mid-high-end Japanese knives, in various styles, and I have to say the one thing I find disappointing about the Masamoto KS wa-gyuto, when it comes to sharpening, is that I don't get to spend much more time doing it: it's just so darn easy to get a terrific edge. What's more, that steel will take any level of polishing I can throw at it --- and my top end polish is approximately 15k JIS, which I assure you is ridiculously high.

I can't speak to comparative handling qualities. What I can say is that this knife talks to you in a way no other knife I've ever handled does. As an example, if I split an avocado and then slice the flesh inside the skin, the normal thing would be to use a petty or paring knife for it. I use my Masamoto. The reason is simply that I can actually feel the skin with the point of the knife --- some 11" from my hand --- better than I can with my Aritsugu Kyoto petty knife.

In terms of appearance, I find this knife very beautiful in a peculiar way: it is completely and utterly lacking in flash of any kind. From handle to blade to whatever, after you've used the knife for a little while it becomes dull and gray and sort of blah. The one part that gleams, of course, is the part you keep grinding on those high-grit stones, i.e. the bevel. Looking at it, then, you've got a knife that seems completely unassuming, but has this mirror-like shine right by the edge. Everything else is dull. But because you know that this knife is terrifyingly sharp, it takes on a sort of evil, stealth character. I guess for me it's sort of like if you had a car that looked like a passably attractive 4-door sedan, nothing that would turn heads, but you knew that you could thrash any Ferrari or Lamborghini on any track without half trying. I like that kind of thing, but I admit it's not for everyone.

Anyway, that's my pitch. You'll love whatever you get, though.

Dan, I'm new to the whole high-end Japanese gyuto thing as well, but purchased an Aritsugu a-style 240mm and have officially caught the bug. I got it from Chefs Knives to Go and have been grinding away with an Edge Pro Apex 5 kit to try to get a 10 degree per side edge. I'm mostly there. I also have a Tad INOX 270 arriving from Takeshi this week, so I'm very grateful to BDL and others who have contributed to this thread. Good info.

One thing I wanted to mention to you, though, is that the Edge Pro's minimum angle is 10 degrees, and that's supposedly only to be used for serrated blades. Well, the Aritsugu steel can support a 10/10 edge, but not many others can. Be aware that if you go to sharpen the Tad on the Edge Pro, it will "shoulder" the knife - you will cut a distinct bevel. That may not necessarily be a bad thing, but apparently the knife comes from the factory with an edge that blends seamlessly with the blade. So from what I've read, most Tad owners learn waterstone sharpening before attempting to touch up these knives - the blade is sharpened by laying it almost completely flat against the stone with very little angle, and just polishing the existing edges. Hope that makes sense.

I scratched the heck out of my Aritsugu trying to sharpen it with the Edge Pro - LOTS of metal removal with the 120 grit stone - and have been only semi-successful repairing my own damage. But It's still a magnificent knife and I find I use it for just about everything now. Can't wait for the Tad - I'll definitely be more cautious with it. 

A couple of things about the Edge Pro:

One thing I've found with the Edge Pro is that it's difficult to hold the blade absolutely still with one hand while sharpening with the other. Any change to the angle of the knife, especially with the higher grit finishing stones will screw up your edge. So for what it's worth, one modification I've made to the Edge Pro is to adhere a stack (8 or so) of rare earth magnets under the blade table - this locks in the knife with enough force to maintain a steady angle for high-grit stone passes (not recommended if you need to use a lot of pressure, as with the low grit stones).

Another thing you can do is to take a metal blank, cut a smooth strip of cow hide to fit it, like from an old belt, and glue that coarse side down to the blank using silicone glue. As with any strop, this miniature one should only be used for strokes away from the edge, otherwise you'll cut in to the leather - but it's a fast and convenient way to strop the knife with the Edge Pro once you've cut and polished your edge.

It's good it made you think.  If you want a knife with some weight to it, no laser will make you happy.  They're very light, that's their rasion d'etre. If you're serious about heft as a matter of taste, you should probably look at a western-handled knife. 

If you think extra weight makes the knife work better -- not really.  Sharpness trumps weight.

I'm glad I'm not in a position where I have to trade my Sab for Konosuke.  They have very different characters, both of which I like.  But my Sab are as light and thin as a western knife with a bolster and full finger-guard get.  There is definitely a theme.  

No.  The laser geometry presents a sharpening challenges in terms of holding a very low angle, but that just takes practice.  Sharpening is sharpening. 

(Never having used a Konosuke White #2, I'm going to have to extrapolate based on two meals with the HD) 

In the first place, Masamoto is Masamoto.  That means, among other things, it costs more because they're charging you for the name.  KS is Masamoto's best white steel line, and is supposedly made by their best, most experienced employees.  You pay extra for that, too.  Unfortunately Masamoto doesn't make a value-busting KK chef's; if you want a Masamoto wa-gyuto, KS is it.

In the second place, Japanese Knife Imports has a fantastic price on Konosuke White #2.  It's not only $100 less than a KS, it's a lot less than the same knife at Chef Knives To Go.  So, I'm not sure that the price difference you're seeing between the KS and Konosuke is representative or sui generis.  CKTG keeps its prices very low, you very seldom beat by much. How JKI can do it, I don't know.  If you're interested in a 270, I'd buy the one JKI has in stock tonight, and take a chance on the price going up.  

The Konosuke and Masamoto KS are different knives, yes.  But not that different.  The KS is light and thin for a regular wa-gyuto but it is not a laser; while the Konosuke most definitely is.  Coming off western made knives, if you can live with one though, you can probably live with the other.  They both have the same strengths and caveats -- the Konosuke is just more so.

Masamoto is known for their chef's knives perfect profiles, and the KS is no exception.  But amazingly, it really any better than the Konosuke.  You probably can't appreciate how mind blowing that is.  Going back to the relative similarities between the Masamoto and the KS, that's really big and goes some way to bridging the gap between the other lasers and the really good wa-gyutos. 

Workmanship is a push.  Both are outstanding.  That doesn't just go to fit and finish.  It's fair to extrapolate that the quality of Konosuke's workmanship and hardening will enhance the edge characteristics of the Shiro #2 steel alloy just as much as Masamoto's do.  And that's quite a bit.  

Given edges of similar geometries and equal sharpening, the Konosuke is going to feel and act sharper.  That's the blessing of thin.  It has an obverse side, though.  The Masamoto will feel stronger and stiffer.  I can't tell you how much those things will mean to you.

Up until yesterday I would have said the KS was the best wa-gyuto I ever used -- mostly because of the profile.  The Konosuke has me rethinking, at least for now.  But I like light wa-gyutos and don't care for heavy ones.  You may feel differently.    

You got super excited about wa-gyutos but a yo-gytuo (aka western handled chef's knife) might be a better proposition.  There are a few real standouts.   In the mid-high price stainless, there are MAC Pro and Masamoto VG; in the higher priced stainless there's Hattori FH and Tadatsuna Inox (western handled); in mid-high carbon, there's the Misono Sweden and the Masamoto HC (which is as good as any mass-produced western knife made); and in high-priced carbon there's the Tadatsuna Shiro #2 (western handled -- which you'll have to special order). 

All of these are very light and thin compared to any western knife other than a Sabatier carbon, but none are what you'd call a "laser."Each of those is a pro style knife -- with no added visual interest or gimmickry beyond craftsmanship.  Each is an outstanding knife in its price range.     

If you want a wa-gyuto that's not a laser, you can't beat a Masamoto KS. If you're willing to give up lightness and agility in favor of weight and durability and you still want a wa-gyuto there are options there as well.  Yoshikane to name one, Zakuri to name another.

If you can live with steeling a knife every day, and sharpening your way around a full finger guard, there's always one of the good Sabatier carbons.  They get very sharp very easily, can stand up to a lot of abuse, have a feel in the hand like nothing else, and don't cost that much.  But they are carbon and do need plenty of steeling. 

BDL