Best knives???

Hi zdawg,

Yes, it gets asked a lot.  Unfortunately it's a question based on a false premise.  There is no such thing as "the best set out there."  Once you get into really good knives, they don't come in block sets. By and large, big, "complete" sets of knives is an idea whose time has passed.  Most people don't know how to use all the knives in those sets, and good cutters neither want nor need them. 

Don't take this as a slap.  It's just a step in learning, and one everyone has to make.  In not too long, you'll start thinking of knives in a different way -- one that will save you some money, make your prep easier, your cooking more fun and actually help it improve.

Sharp Knives Mean Sharpening:

It seems obvious that good knives in the house would start with good knives in the store, but that's only part of the story.  Sharpening is crucial.  No matter how good, how beautiful, how expensive a knife started, when it's dull it's only a dull knife.  All knives get dull.  Even knives with exceptional edge holding properties stay sharp only a little longer than knives with good edge properties.

Consequently, how well and how often you're going to sharpen plays a big part in what kinds of knives make sense for you.  For that matter, so does a good cutting board (or two or three). 

Shun Kaji, You Asked:

Shun Kaji are among the most expensive knives Williams-Sonoma has to offer.  For a cook with good knife skills they are not good value nor are they particularly good performers.  Unfortunately, W-S does not have a good selection of good knives, does not sell what knives they have at a good price, and their employees are not knowledgeable about knives.  Think of Kaji from W-S as sort of a perfect storm.

Let's Talk About You:

Before we start figuring out what makes the most sense for you, why don't you talk about yourself a little.

Do you sharpen?  If you don't already know how, are you interested in learning to freehand?  How much money are you willing to invest in a sharpening kit?  

What's the sharpest knife in your house now?  How do you keep it sharp?  Is it the knife you use to cut onions? 

Are you comfortable with a 10" chef's?  A 12" slicer?  Do you pinch grip?  Do you claw?  Do you know what "cut and retreat" is?  Can you make the "classic" cuts?  Do you have any interest in doing so? 

Suppose for now that the basic set is a chef's, a slicer, a "petty" or parer, and a bread knife.  Do you do enough specialty cutting to need  specialty knives, a cimiter for instance?  Is there something you might not need but particularly want, like a yanagiba for sashimi?

What's your budget? 

And At Last, The Good News:

If you were serious about a set of Shun Kaji, you won't have any problem putting together a great kit. 

Let's talk some more,

BDL

Knife in the Kitchen by Chad Ward is probably the single best book. 

Of the major knife forums on the internet, Fred's Cutlery Forum (part of Foodie Forums) is the best; the Knife Forum is a not-that-close second best -- not because there isn't as much good information as at Fred's, but because there's so much more bad information.

Of the cooking sites which also have good knife advice, this one, Chef Talk, is the best.  Take a look at the knife articles on Cook Food Good, my blog.  The knife section is hardly complete, but it may give you some ideas.  At risk of immodesty, I'm as good a resource for someone in your position as any.

There are a number of good knife stores, the best ones will be those which combine the knives you want with good prices and good service.  Until we know what sort of knives you're looking for, it's hard to get definite. Here are a few good stores (in alphabetical order) I like Chef Knives To Go, Epicurean Edge, Japanese Knife Imports, Japanese Chef's Knives, MadCow Cutlery.

Most of the best knife retailers are on the internet, but many have a few good brick and mortar presence, and there are some other good knife stores scattered through the country.  Depending on where you live, one may be close enough to visit.  That's a good thing if you want to at least hold a knife before you buy it.  Whether or not that's really important or not, depends on a lot of factors.

If your perspective is performance and bang for the buck as opposed to owning "the best," "collecting," and so on, it makes sense to address your knives starting with knife and sharpening skills.  However, most people combine the two viewpoints to one extent or another.  If you want knives that are better than your knife-handling and sharpening with the idea that you will (or at least can) grow into them -- that's fine.

As to sharpening -- There are two really good ways to go; and a couple of others which are good enough to make pursuing knives with high performance alloys (i.e., knives made in Japan) worthwhile.  The first of the good ways is freehanding on bench stones, and the second is buying an EdgePro Apex kit. 

If you're handy and enjoy working with tools, freehanding is probably the best choice.  But there is a distinct learning curve.  It takes a while to learn to reliably sharpen a knife; and somewhat longer to get good at it.  An EdgePro is a significant initial outlay, but is very easy to learn; and for almost every practical purpose will allow you to sharpen as well as a very skilled sharpener with only a few blades worth or practice.  

A distant third is one of the Chef's Choice electric machines.  They are incredibly convenient and capable of producing adequate results by following very simple instructions.  That is not to say they aren't without issues.  

Some of the pull throughs and "V" ceramic stick systems are okay for relatively inexpensive knives; but since they can't produce the sort of fine, polished edge a really nice knife is capable of taking, it's sort of one or the other.  

The hardest knife to choose is the chef's.  We should probably start there.  You're going to have to decide whether you want a "German" or "French" (which is also a Japanese) profile.  This may help.  I much prefer the French profile and by and large prefer Japanese made knives to those made elsewhere.  However, if you're not going to do much in the way of sharpening, a German knife will suit you better.

Unfortunately, there's no good way to shortcut good knife skills.  You'll have to ask questions, get advice, perhaps buy a book, pursue videos on you-tube and practice.  Reading between the lines, it seems you're starting pretty much from scratch.  Not a bad thing, by the way.  The first place to start is with the grip.  Along with most western style cutters, I favor the "pinch grip" for the chef's knife -- and in my case, that's a very "soft" pinch grip.  Try reading through this post and see what you make of it. 

If you're interested in going "soup to nuts," just to give you an idea of what you're probably looking at in terms of equipment and expense:

• Japanese made (e.g., MAC Pro), western-handled, 24cm (9-1/2"), chef's knife, $160;
• Japanese made, western-handled, 27cm (10-1/2"), slicer, $150;
• Forschner or MAC bread knife, 10-1/2", $35 or $85;
• Japanese, western handled, 6" "petty," $75;
• Forschner 3-1/2" paring knife, $10;

• End grain "chopping block of adequate size " $75 - $200;
• Knife Block, $50'

• EdgePro Apex, $200;
• Idahone fine ceramic "1200" rod-hone (knife steel), $35; plus

• Whatever has so far gone unremarked.

Hope this helps,

BDL

I received a semi-planned gift for my birthday in June, and think this may be a good place to talk about them.

My husband bought me a set of high carbon steel kitchen knives. Somehow he found this guy in Oregon who hand made them,

and sent along with easy care instructions. They're from Wildfire Cutlery. Apparently

he sells thru Dean and DeLuca in NYC only, and online.

They talked on the phone, I think it was three times, and Michael helped my husband to plan a custom set. I am 4 foot 11, and wanted knives with smaller

handles and now I have them. I got a boning knife, a paring knife, a knife that I believe is 1 1/2" x 7 , along with a 6 inch kitchen knife that does all i need. It is around

2 1/2 " wide and is my main tool now. I have some experience with carbon steel, and with the care instructions, we now can easily take care of the surface  with bonami,

and the edge. He told us that the edge, if properly honed, will never need to be resharpened or rebeveled, as he called it . I always wonder when someone says never, but it all did make sense. Now we simply use our sharpening stick a few strokes, and that good edge is back. I am never using stainless again.
Overall I am quite pleased with my set.

Oh yes, the wood on the handles is rosewood ( ?? ) , which is dark brown . We could have gotten murtle wood but ...

It took a week for Michael to complete the work and ship. Highly recommended.

Bellybones,

They sound lovely. Just one thing: there is no such animal as a knife that never needs to be resharpened, with or without honing. It's an impossibility, for somewhat the same reasons as a perpetual-motion machine is impossible. The only knife that doesn't need to be resharpened periodically is the knife that never gets used.

Yes, "never" is a long time.  All knives will dull eventually if they're being used.  The blade is much harder than, say, a chicken breast, but over time it adds up.  The Grand Canyon was carved by running water- the same thing will happen to your knives

[Deleted]

View this vid before reading this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9qhPeV7IbM

Sorry about not getting back sooner. I hope I understand the flow here but ...

I will clarify 'never', as this one got me also when I first heard it. Michael clarified for my husband and he told me - 
and I am paraphrasing here.

He said well heat treated knives should hold a noticeably good edge, and then should be easy to 'brighten ' up when dull .

He said brighten up means give it a honing and it cuts again. A honing is not in any way a sharpening. Hone means working on the very edge, not the bevel.

Some people hone after sharpening whiloe others such a as a barber hone their razors solely. Michael said his edges are so

fine and the bevel is so small that it is easy to maintain it with slight care.
 

Personally, after dulling my knives,  just do a few strokes with a steel and the edge is back. These days I usually just hone before starting if the edge

fails my thumb pluck test.

It may be sharper after a full on sharpening rather than a honing,  but the honed edge is sharp sharp and works for me.
They always cuts really well. I think the point ( at least the way I interpreted it and am doing it now ) is that if I

hone with the correct bevel, then I can do this system  forever ( hence no sharpening ) . Dull, hone, dull hone ...
Personally, I do not obsess over the angle. All I know it that the edge is there after I take 20 seconds to hone, and I am delighted at this. it works for me.

It did not work for my Globals ( $%$#@!!!) . I could have sawed all day before they were re-honed.
If one did not hone with the correct angle, one could then roll the edge or literally sharpen any edge right off and ruin the bevel.
One can get an idiot proof honer anywhere or contact the knife guy. He was sooo nic to my husband.

Lastly, my hub is left handed, and he uses my knives just fine. Both sides of the knife are the same !! ope this helps. I asked my husband to

write something which he flatly refuses, so I would refer you to my knife maker for any questions.

Sounds like you're thinking has evolved a great deal.

You still want a set, but you're not so hot to buy all from the same line or to rely on the manufacturer to make you choices.  Good. 

Chef's:

Glestains:

They were very popular during the first move to Japanese knives, but that's waned quite a bit.  They're made from Acuto 440, an alloy which, like the knife, seems to have passed its prime.  Edge taking is decent, and so is edge holding -- better than you'd find in a German knife but at the bottom of the middle for Japanese manufacturers.  Not good at all, considering the price.

The blade itself is on the thick side, especially at the heel.

The blade profile is okay, but nothing to write home about. 

Their dimpled pattern, which is a sort of marriage between kullenschiffen and tsuchime, actually works about as well as anything to keep wet food from sticking.  (Knives made by the actual Granton Knife Company are their only real competitioon in that respect.)  Some people find the handle jams their hand uncomfortably into the back of the blade. 

Is it a "bruiser knife?"  I don't know.  What's a bruiser knife?  It's not a chef de chef, a "lobster cracker," or a "western deba."  It won't take as much abuse as a Wusthof Classic or Henckels Pro S, either.  If you do a lot of heavy duty tasks, you're best off with need a separate, heavy duty knife.   

In my opinion, the knife is overweight, overpriced, and there are a great many better choices. If you want a heavy, western-handled chef's (yo-gyuto) tsuchime style knife, Yoshikanes and the dimpled Takayukis are both better.  At least with the Yoshikane you get an incredibly durable edge. 

For someone looking for their first, good, stainless, western-handled, Japanese knife, I usually recommend MAC Pro or Masamoto VG.  Whether or not they should be on your short list, depends on you.

Rather than taking a scatter shot approach where the other guys and I analyze every knife you see, or we all push our favorites on you, it would be helpful if you could identify a few characteristics which are at the very top of your list for what you want.  For instance, a profile that will help you learn good skills, blade stiffness, ease of sharpening, handle comfort, "heft," appearance (plain, tsuchime, "Damascus," kurouchi), something you can use to split chickens, and so on. 

Yanagibi, Probably Not:

At this stage you certainly don't want a traditional, chisel-edged, "sushi/sashimi" knife.  Sujibiki (aka suji) is the Japanese name for a slicer, and is plenty good enough for doing fish work as well as all of the usual portioning and trimming tasks. 

What do you mean by "more delicate cuts?"  An ultra fine edge for glass smooth cuts in fish?  If so, you can get a little more performances out of a chisel-edged yanagiba than a suji -- but it's such a huge can of worms I don't want to go there unless you're planning on eating lots of raw fish.

The Black Hole We Call Sharpening:

Sharpening freehand on bench stones is ultimately more versatile than using an EP.  It's also more satisfying at some level.  It's not actually that difficult either, all it requires is practice to develop basic competency.  It's less expensive starting out too, since you can go relatively piecemeal while the EP is pretty much an all at once proposition. 

At its most basic, freehanding is just rubbing a knife against a rock.  Not much of a conceptual challenge. 

However, it takes most people a few months to get to the point where they're consistently sharpening their knives sharper than they were when they started a given sharpening sessions; and a LOT of practice -- at least a year -- to get very good with stones, i.e., where you're consistently sharpening as well or better than you would be with an EP after half a dozen knives.  Unless you're going to buy chisel edged, or otherwise unusual knives, you don't kneed the extra versatility. 

Also, you'll probably end up spending more on stones and other sharpening stuff as you would on an EP.  For instance, the "new, replacement value" of my oilstone set, waterstone set, stropping set, and two rod hones, is around $800.  

Guiding most people toward the right pick is usually pretty easy.  It's really more about personality than results.  But you're a tough read, and at this stage I can't say which would work better for you in the long run.  Either way, you'll get your knife sharp.  It does sound as if you're leaning towards bench stones, but as there's no hurry on pulling the trigger yet, you can ask more questions while the subject percolates. 
 

BDL

zdawg,

I've been taking my time trying to figure out how best to answer you.  I think the way I've been asking you to  break things down hasn't done you much of a service -- instead only made the whole thing more confusing.

If you want knives with "heft," you're probably better staying with western made knives than going with Japanese.  On the other hand, if -- like me -- you believe that sharpness trumps weight for almost every task, you'll choose the Asian made knives.  My preference isn't the issue, and you want it all without enough background to pick between them.  

For most people "heft" only feels good for the first minute or so, but loses its charm quickly.  Balance is similar but not quite the same.  The more skilled you are, and the lighter the knife, the less important the position of the actual balance point becomes. 

Of course you want good skills.  My preference is for a "French" profile (which is also a Japanese profile, by the way) chef's knife because it promotes a certain kind of chopping action.  But plenty of people like a German profile and use it beautifully; some, many even, with much better skills than mine.

You seem to like knives with tsuchime (hammered) and suminagashi ("Damascus") patterns.  I don't.  For that matter I don't like san-mai construction, which is something all (as a practical matter) of the patterened knives share.  It's very unlikely you'd even notice the issue with san-mai, and the patterning is simply taste.  I can't really handicap the knives for you because I don't know many of them well.  

My original thought was to go ahead with a list of different chef's knives which might be good choices for you, including a short analysis of each; but I might as well stop with the one obvious, best choice. 

Yoshikane: A Japanese made yo-gyuto  with san-mai (three layer) construction, and a tsuchime finish. 

The middle, edge layer ("hagane") is made from a "high speed tool steel" (aka HSS) called SKD-11, itself a variant of D2.   The steel is quite tough, and Yoshikane hardens it about as far as it should be reasonably taken.  It manages to combine most of the best aspects of the alloys German and Japanese makers use in one knife. 

The edge is quite long-lasting.  So much so as to border on amazing.   

A Yoshikane edge will resist going out of true, but when it does is somewhat amenable to steeling.  You'll need an appropriate steel (fortunately not too expensive), and if you really push the edge over, you'll need to treat the "roll" in the same way as a chip and sharpen it out.  Also, it resists chipping mightily.

SKD-11 It can be sharpened very sharp, and sharpens fairly easily on waterstones; oilstones are more difficult, especially in the higher grits.  It can take and hold a higher degree of polish than you'll ever put on it.

As yo-gyutos go, the knife is fairly heavy.  It's also well suited for moderately heavy-duty tasks.  There's no need to be avoid anything you'd try with a Wusthof Classic.  If you do manage to chip the edge, the chip won't go under the jigane (outer layers), and repair will be neither extensive nor difficult. 

F&F is good but not great.  It's not a Henckels, that's just how it is. 

Handle is better than average as most Japanese knives go -- it's not the world's greatest -- doesn't compare with MAC, Masamoto, Sabatier or any of the German "classics," but it's not too narrow as many Japanese western handles are.  By the way, an uncomfortable handle is the reason we're not talking about the Takayuki tsuchime as well.

The blade profile (it's "French") is more than usable; very good, if not quite among the best Japanese efforts. 

Where the knife reall falls down is in blade cross section and edge profle.  It's thick especially at the heel, and tends to wedge.  Again -- a good knife, but not exactly a joy to use.

The "wa" Japanese handled version  (also, look here for an octagonal handled version good for righties and lefties)  is much better in terms of thickness which makes them a much better knife overall.  Many people consider them as one of the best wa-gyutos.  Even with the caveat that wa-gyutos balance forward compared to western-handled knives, and considering everything you seem to want, both Yoshikanes should probably be top two on your short list with a nod to the wa-gyuto over the yo-gyuto. 

My other chef knife suggestions for you are the Hattori HD, Kikuichi TKC, MAC Pro, and Masamoto VG-10.  They are all western handled knives, lighter, less abuse resistant, better handling, and with thinner blades than the Yoshikane yo-gyuto.  Also, all are available through Chef Knives To Go, which is a good thing.  The Hattori is a very well done suminagashi; the TKC is a typical, well made, "mono-steel" wa-gyuto but the alloy is an HSS.  The MAC and Masamoto are both extremely well excecuted versions of the same yo-gyuto idea with similar but not identical virtues.  I most often recommend MAC.   

Let's nail down the chef's before we go farther. 

What do you think so far?

BDL

BDL is absolutely the best source of knife information. Whatever knife he guides you toward will be wonderful.

I would like to give my two cents, however. First, if you are buying your first serious chef's knife, I would encourage you to spend a little less and get proficient with it before making a large investment. Basically any knife you pick up will be the best knife you have ever used. You won't realize that there are better knives out there. Not until you become more technically capable will you be able to get everything out of a higher end blade. I learned all this by experience. I was convinced that I wanted a heavy German profile knife and was ready to spend frankly too much money on a knife. Instead, I bought a 8" Global from Bed Bath & Beyond with a 20% off coupon, which brought the cost down to less than $80. It's extremely light and nimble. It was very sharp out of the box. I know there are knives made of better steel, but with the skills I have, it doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zdawgnight 

 my philosphy has always been get the best and in the long run you will save money. In this case I might not need the best because there is a very good level that I am willing to spend at. I would be happy to spend $200 for a knife that I would have no regrets owning.

Hard to argue there.
 

Wow brilliant thread.

Been looking to buy knifes for a long time and since I'm a complete neophyte I didn't even know what to look for.

Better now!

Warn your fiancee that the knives you're interested in probably aren't available via a registry. But on the other hand, if they are available that way -- things change rapidly in this sort of area -- register for the best and cross your fingers.

Incidentally, congrats!

The Edge Pro Apex is a fine tool and will serve you well.  It will get a knife extremely sharp if you do your part.  It's a bit like chess, too- the basics are easily learned but you can spend years mastering it.  No, it won't take years to get good but as your sharpening knowledge increases, the EP will grow with you.

I find a sujihiki very useful, both in a pro kitchen and at home.  Not sure what to recommend that might be on a gift registry, though.

I have been a professional chef for over 25 years.  I trained in France at LCB.  We were taught there that the knife is an extension of your hand.  Only 4 or 5 knives are really necessary for the home cook.  A chef's knive is the place to start followed by a paring knife.  A bread knife with a serrated edge is the third knife needed.  Depending upon the type of cooking you do; a boning or filet knife, a Santuko or a utility knife might complete your needs. 

I own dozens of knives from Global to Shun to Glestian to Nenox.  Recently, I ate at a friends restaurant in Vegas, where I now make my home.  I ordered a ribeye and was given a beautiful steak knife to use.  This knife cut through the steak better than any other steak knife I have ever used.  It was made my New West Knifeworks.  I went into the kitchen and spoke with my friend and he showed me his 9" chefs knife and 7" santuko also from New West.  The knives felt great in my hand and really worked great on the board with vegetables, 

I came home and ordered a knife from Newwestkinfeworks.com to try out for myself.  They have 2 lines of knives.  I bought the one with the Damascus blade.  I have since bought 2 others from New West and they are the main knives I use in my kitchen for my daily work. 

They are an American company based in Wyoming and the give a lifetime guarantee on their knives.  I can also send my knife back for a free tune up anytime I want.  Besides looking great- I got knives with a HOT "red" handle the perform better than any other knives in my drawer.

I hope this info is useful.

Wow, you have my knife.   I have the red handled "9".  It is a great all round knife, but the knife I use more is the mini-paring knife(flamingo handle).  I do salads and cold prep.  The mini-parer is always in my pocket.  I am thinking of adding the Bread knife.  I don't want to sound like an ad, but I have been happy with the "9" and thinking of selling my 8" Shun, although I like the feel of the Shun.  How many knives do I need anyway? Wait I'm asking the wrong people. 

Please let me know if you get that bread knife- I really would like to know how it works out for you.  I have had my Glestian chefs knife for more years than I can count and will always love it; the 9" from NewWest is simply amazing.  They have some new knife sets with COCOBOLO handles & blocks that look amazing.  I hope to meet up with them at a trade show so I can demo the entire line.  LAS VEGAS CHEF1 - OUT

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

 

 

Shun Kaji, You Asked:

Shun Kaji are among the most expensive knives Williams-Sonoma has to offer.  For a cook with good knife skills they are not good value nor are they particularly good performers.  Unfortunately, W-S does not have a good selection of good knives, does not sell what knives they have at a good price, and their employees are not knowledgeable about knives.  Think of Kaji from W-S as sort of a perfect storm.

What do you mean when you say "perfect storm"?  I ask because I'm kind of in the same boat.  I can afford to pay a lot but I don't know anything about knives.  I really liked the Shun Kaji at W-S (mainly because they were super-light compared to everything else) but thought I should do more research before spending so much money.  I only cut fruits (oranges, avocado, etc.) and vegetables.  I only have 2 knives now and they are the cheap grocery store kind and which are now very dull.  I've also looked at the Wustof and some of the other knives at W-S and Sur La Table but none of those appealed to me. 

I never used to cook and only started about 6-8 months ago mainly because I now have a very restricted diet and have trouble finding good food in restaurants.

If not the Shun Kaji, what would you recommend?  I'm looking for the Honda Civic of knives.  (I'm sure the Shun Kaji is probably more like a BMW, but a Civic would probably be enough).  

Also since I'm just getting started with cooking I have very little knifing skills.  Where would be a good place to learn those?  I get scared of I'll have a knife accident...especially with these big, sharp knives.

I like MAC knives, and this MAC starter set is an inexpensive way to try them out