Best knives??? - Page 4

Every joule of energy that a heavy knife saves you when you cut will have to be made up for when you lift the blade.  And in every maneuver of the knife.  You're not saving effort.

 

A Henckels' wedging effect compared to a nice thin-bladed Japanese gyuto or a Chinese chopper will take much more force to overcome than any difference in weight.

 

Heaviness is not the main determining factor in choosing knives...  At least, not in chef knives.

Sharp is sharp. All things being equal, sharp things will cut other things nicely. I've seen veteran laborers, construction guys with leather hands, still get "paper cuts" on their fingers. You don't need Herculean strength to slice vegetables. Being able to hold a very light knife, just maybe there is less muscle stress since you don't have to hold up a big heavy blade? I don't know, maybe things are different in your part of the world, but I've never had any arguments from vegetables. They just always seem to go along with the program. If you just use equipment for the proper given application, there shouldn't be any problem.

 

I'm curious too here just a bit. Are you speaking from any experience using ceramic knives, or are you just, you know, talking about them? It's OK either way. I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

 

 

That is just a statement, not a proof.  I am not talking about just any heavy knife evaluated on it's own.  I am merely comparing the two (ceramic to steel) from a scientific observation and from what I know about the way knives work, being a knife-maker myself.  I don't make chef's knives, however I do understand the principles behind edges and why you would pick one over the other.  I make my own tools for woodworking as well as my being (in my youth) a chef during the time when ceramic blades first made their appearance and were prohibitively expensive.

 

As the technology became less expensive and ceramic blades and knives were made available, our restaurant bought one.  It wasn't horrific, however it wasn't favored either.  My personal experience in processing mounds and mounds of root vegetables is that it lacked the 'oomph' needed to really muscle through things, and all of us (I believe there were four of us who tried it out) had extremely sore wrists and fore-arms.  I asked a knifemaker friend of mine why this was and helped me understand using the explanation I gave above.  I confirmed this with a physics professor at my local college, just for giggles.

 

Now, I am not saying that this discounts completely the value of a ceramic blade.  I am sure they have their place in the home as well as in the kitchen.  As I said before I can definitely understand their value as a 'paring' knife.  It's nice, and light and there are completely different movements and muscles being used in 'paring' activities.

 

However, it's as Iceman said, 'sharp is sharp'.  I was only offering an opinion based on some scientific observation.  I will however (because of the scientific proof) have to disagree with the 'fiery' one.  A person does indeed save effort using the proper ratio of sharp to weight when using a Chef's knife.  The laws of Newtonian physics prove it.

I would still like to know what knife boar_d_laze uses for butchery, primal cuts, etc, etc as I would like to start rebuilding my collection.  Or if anyone else does any charcuterie and uses a certain knife variety for this activity.  I find my chef's knife is kind of weird when processing huge slabs of meat.

For big meat with any bones:  10" Forschner Cimeter; 12" K-Sabatier au carbone chef's; or, Chicago Cutlery carbon (from the mid-sixties) cleaver. 

 

Heavy duty poultry, portioning ribs, etc:  Same knives.

 

For big meat with no bones:  10" Forschner Cimeter; 12" Konosuke HD suji; 10" K-Sabatier au carbone slicer.

 

For boning and breaking:  150mm Konosuke SS petty; or 6" TI Sabatier "Nogent" slicer.  I'm thinking of adding a Forschner 7" or 8" breaker, but I've already got so many knives and don't need more.

 

For trimming:  Any of the slicers or petties -- depending on the size of meat and whether the surfaces are are straight or irregularly shaped.   

 

For breaking fish:  7" TI Sabatier "Nogent" Chef's + either of the Sabatier slicers; or the 12" K-Sab chef's plus the 12" Konosuke suji.  The choices aren't whimsical, they depend on the size and type of fish.  My fish work is pretty much Japanese style, and I use the chef's knives as a Japanese cook would use a deba; the slicers/suji as he would use a yanagiba. 

 

I really like the little chef's knife, but there aren't a lot of things for which it's the best or even one of the best tasks; so I invent reasons to use it.

 

For the little it's worth, I seldom prep any meal with more than two knives because too much junk either makes for a messy and confusing work area or a lot of running around getting things out and putting them away.  The two knife limit frequently means not using the "right" knife for every task.  But as long as it's sharp, right?

 

BDL

FANTASTIC, exactly what I needed to know.  Thanks.  (got a question on your blog,enjoying it immensely!  disregard the questions now.  ;) )

WOW. I guess I'm just lucky then. Anyway, I'm not buying into the physics part, I'm just going with, you know, real professional experience and such, that guides me to just believe in sharp knives and good skills. To restate my original thoughts/feelings from the original ceramic question, I think they're kinda cool; I'm not getting any more; an electric sharpener is on the market; I recommend that $20 deal just to to see; I think the "physics" argument is silly.

And yet, the trend is to lighter and thinner blades. Inertia is actually a negative when you want fine control of the cut. Lifting a heavy blade is more tiring for most cooks than the effort used in controlling the cut of a sharp knife.

 

Those cuts where inertia is more help are where cleavers tend to be used.
 

 

Was thinking pretty much the same thing.

Have to admit that all the ceramic talk has gotten me a bit curious but no way will my budget allow anything new for a while unless its really inexpensive.

Maybe will try the really low cost ones I have been seeing at one of the discount clearance stores near here. I think they were $10 but could be more or less and I have no idea on the brand.

I k ow kyrocera will have an opinion but do you all think there is a large difference between the different brands?

Love doing that cup "trick" when visiting friends and family.

 

Had to talk my way out of doing an entire "el cheapo" block set after helping out and putting an edge on a slicer that was so dull it wouldn't cut your finger over the holidays.

 

Seem to have had a lot more steel come off the blade that in the video though, but guess that one was not as bad :)

Observation is observation.  Calling an observation "scientific" does not make it so.  Perhaps you meant "empiric"?

And citing unnamed physics professors and just throwing the word "Newtonian physics" doesn't really prove anything.  It takes a certain amount of physical energy to move a certain amount of weight a certain distance, and when you lift something you store up potential energy in it that is released when the force which is holding the thing up is released and the object drops.  More weight means more energy released when the thing is dropped, but also more weight when you pull it back up each time.  There is simply no way to use less energy by using a heavier object.  Heavier object = more energy used per motion.  THAT is what Newtonian physics dictates.

If your wrists and forearms were sore, there are alternative explanations.  One, the thicker blade may have been actually cracking the vegetable or exerting some force to push the vegetable apart as it was being pushed through the vegetable, neither of which is strictly speaking cutting.  Two, the surface textures may have been different, and the ceramic may have been creating more drag when pulled through whatever was being cut.  Three, it may have been that people were using the 5" ceramic 4 ounce santoku very differently than the 8-10", one pound chef they were used to, using less leverage and more moscle power and/or using more forearm muscles than the larger chest/shoulder/upper arm muscles, which don't tire as easily.

 

Or it may be some combination of these factors, but I think it was mostly the third -- people were handling this tiny little ceramic thing differently and weren't using it the same way, perhaps being ginger with it because it was also very expensive, and found its thin spine uncomfortable to push down on compared to a German ax.