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Best recipe for sub bread?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

Anyone got a good recipe for sub bread?

post #2 of 14

There are several good ones out there, Abe. But, frankly, I usually make sub buns either from my (well, Peter Reinhart's) regular  Pane de Campagne or by using a pretzel dough---which makes for a denser, chewier bun.

 

For individual sub buns, scale the dough to 5-7 ounces and shape it into a mini-batard

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #3 of 14

KY's versions are very similar to mine.  Pain de campagne might have a little too much character for a lot of people so I'll use a straight, white pain au poolish instead.  

 

Make the poolish in two stages the first with 1/4 tsp yeast, and 1/2 cup each of flour and water; add another 1/2 cup each of flour and water after it's doubled; and let it sit out overnight (covered). 

 

Then I add that to 6 cups of flour, 2 cups water, 1 tbs yeast, 1-1/2 tsp salt and go through the mixing, autolyzing, French-fold, kneading, extra rise, extra French fold ritual necessary to make an airy bread.  

 

Putting the poolish yeast to extra work with the extra step, the lower total amount of yeast (which makes for a longish first rise), and the extra rise all add up to some extra tang.

 

When I form, depending on size, sometimes I'll go through the whole batard thing.  But more often than not, I'll just make snakes.  I bake at around 350 - 375 -- a lower temperature than I might use otherwise -- in order to get a chewier crust.  But up to you.

 

BDL

post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 

That will make a more chewy bread, no?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

KY's versions are very similar to mine.  Pain de campagne might have a little too much character for a lot of people so I'll use a straight, white pain au poolish instead.  

 

Make the poolish in two stages the first with 1/4 tsp yeast, and 1/2 cup each of flour and water; add another 1/2 cup each of flour and water after it's doubled; and let it sit out overnight (covered). 

 

Then I add that to 6 cups of flour, 2 cups water, 1 tbs yeast, 1-1/2 tsp salt and go through the mixing, autolyzing, French-fold, kneading, extra rise, extra French fold ritual necessary to make an airy bread.  

 

Putting the poolish yeast to extra work with the extra step, the lower total amount of yeast (which makes for a longish first rise), and the extra rise all add up to some extra tang.

 

When I form, depending on size, sometimes I'll go through the whole batard thing.  But more often than not, I'll just make snakes.  I bake at around 350 - 375 -- a lower temperature than I might use otherwise -- in order to get a chewier crust.  But up to you.

 

BDL

post #5 of 14

What will make a more chewy bread?  More chewy than what?

 

BDL

post #6 of 14

I don't think so, Abe.

 

BDLs approach will result in a light, airy bun with great depth of flavor. Not as much as a full sourdough, you understand, but moving in that direction.

 

"Chewy" in bread is a function primarily of density (and, yes, Boar, moisture). So, in that regard, the pain de champagne would be chewier than the pain au poolish---although neither of them is particularly chewy in the sense than pretzel dough is chewy.

 

Although analogies are frought with peril, think of the pain au poolish as white bread with a little zing, and the pain de champagne as French bread. That's the difference between the two, in terms of texture.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post
  But more often than not, I'll just make snakes.



What do you mean make snakes?

 

Snake the dough on a pan all in one piece?

post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

There are several good ones out there, Abe. But, frankly, I usually make sub buns either from my (well, Peter Reinhart's) regular  Pane de Campagne or by using a pretzel dough---which makes for a denser, chewier bun.

 

For individual sub buns, scale the dough to 5-7 ounces and shape it into a mini-batard


Thanks!  Those came out damn good!  Probably my best loaves so far.

 

What is the significance with letting the first part ferment overnight?

post #9 of 14

Abe,

 

Making a poolish -- which involves allowing the yeast to work at least overnight and semi-starve in the process gives it a sour, tangy taste.  That gives the bread some character.  I'm glad you liked the taste of the bread -- the poolish was the difference.

 

When I referred to making snakes I was talking about shaping the loaves.  Making batards -- at the least way I make them -- is kind of involved and complicated.  Since I'm lazy, I don't like to do too many batards at a time.  Also, have the work in forming batards goes to making its characteristic pointy "noses," which go unobserved in a sandwich roll.  No one will ever notice, making them points with no point.

 

If you're lazy like me, after dividing the dough into pieces, and pulling each piece down to get some "surface tension," you may roll the dough (very gently so as not to lose too much lift) between your palm and the board to get a snake (or log) shaped piece of dough, which you may then cover, proof and bake.  The snake doesn't have to be a perfect cylinder -- in fact it's better if it's a little fatter in the middle than the ends.

 

If you want even more flavor, try beginning the last rise with a couple of hours in the fridge.  The "retarded" final rise adds more time but makes a better roll.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 10/15/10 at 4:11pm
post #10 of 14

Abe, I don't know how much of the science you're interested in. So, for now, suffice it to say that retarded fermentation provides all sorts of benefits, all of which add up to a better tasting loaf.

 

You can prove this for yourself. Take your favorite recipe and make two doughs. Retard one of them in the fridge overnight, otherwise do everything else more or less the same. Then taste both loaves side-by-side.

 

If you look at artisan bread baking as a class, you'll find it's primarily a world of pre-ferments and retarded fermentations. The major ingredient is not flour, or yeast. It's time.

 

As an aside, did you see Kokopuffs' post, a short time ago, about buying a new yeast supply? Did you grasp how long it took her to use up a pound of yeast? It wasn't because she was being overly frugal. It's simply that with pre-ferments you don't use a whole lot of yeast up front. Instead, you use a small amount and give it time to multiply and do its job.

 

One of the differences between Reinhart's pane de champagne and BDL's pane au poolish is where the action takes place. With the champagne you're retarding fermentation in the fridge, which means that you won't get a sour dough. With BDL's poolish you're working at room temperature, which leads to a souring effect. The longer you let it sit, the sourer it becomes. Let it go three days, for instance, and you'll have a good start on a sourdough mother.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #11 of 14

Making batards -- at the least way I make them -- is kind of involved and complicated.  Since I'm lazy, I don't like to do too many batards at a time. 

 

Truer words were never spoken. And the smaller the batard the more complicated it is to form.

 

Maybe it's my handling methods. But I find if I just roll the dough it tends to spread out rather than up. Going through the batard shaping process, on the other hand, gives me both the height and width I prefer. As infrequently as I make hogie buns, it's worth the effort to me.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

Abe, I don't know how much of the science you're interested in. So, for now, suffice it to say that retarded fermentation provides all sorts of benefits, all of which add up to a better tasting loaf.

 

You can prove this for yourself. Take your favorite recipe and make two doughs. Retard one of them in the fridge overnight, otherwise do everything else more or less the same. Then taste both loaves side-by-side.

 

 

 

KYH,

  

     So, does it mean that, we have to proof the dough right? How many hours in you own preference so I will have an idea?

post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post
Let it go three days, for instance, and you'll have a good start on a sourdough mother.


Thanks!  Been wanting to try a sour dough.

post #14 of 14

  So, does it mean that, we have to proof the dough right? How many hours in you own preference so I will have an idea?

 

HomeMadeCook, I'm really not quite sure what you're trying to ask.

 

Proofing is what most people call the rise, and it's done in several stages. First the dough is proofed, and then the shaped loaves are proofed. Sometimes the dough is proofed more than once, in fact. Indeed, BDL double proofs all his breads, because doing so contributes to the ligher, airier crumb he prefers. In most (but surely not all) breads, I prefer a tougher crumb, so don't go through the double proofing.

 

Because (in America at least) bread recipes are often expressed as, "let the dough (or shaped loaf) rise in a warm place for 1 hour or until doubled in bulk) there's a tendency for casual bakers to go by the clock. Serious bread makers pay little attention to the clock, per se. If a dough has to double in bulk, it's ready when it's doubled. Depending on several factors, that could take an hour. Or it could take three hours. It will take longer in a cool room than in a warm one, which should be obvious but apparently isn't to many people.

 

There are other, perhaps more reliable, tests for when a proof is complete other than the double in size rule. But that's certainly good enough for most bakers.

 

The only time a clock comes into importance: If the dough doubles in less than an hour (on average) it probably has risen too fast. In that case, press it down and let it proof again until doubled.

 

If you're talking about delayed fermentation there are no hard and fast rules. Sometimes you retard just the pre-ferment. Sometimes you retard the mixed dough. And sometimes you retard the shaped loaves. But in each case you are proofing all or parts of the dough.

 

Take Pane Siciliano as an example. You start by creating a pate fermentee (which is one form of pre-ferment), which is kept in the fridge overnight. Next day you let it rest at room temperature until the chill is off. At that point it is puffy (which technically means it has proofed), but is nowhere near doubled in bulk.

 

You use the pate fermentee as your primary leavening agent, and mix the dough. The dough gets proofed until it doubles in bulk. Because you are using a pre-ferment instead of a large amount of yeast this will take much longer than what you might be used to with a regular pan-bread recipe. Could be as much as three hours, depending on conditions. You then shape the loaves (pane siciliano, if you're unfamiliar with it, has a beautiful double-ess shape), and retard them in the fridge overnight. Proofing will take place in the fridge, but it may be 100% or you may have to leave the loaves at room temperature for a couple of hours until you reach full proof stage. Then you bake.

 

On the other hand, take another look at BDL's pain au poolish. Notice that the retarding comes not from chilling, but from the scant amount of yeast used, which forces the yeast to work harder, dividing and growing slowly. Here is the key part of his instructions: Make the poolish in two stages the first with 1/4 tsp yeast, and 1/2 cup each of flour and water; add another 1/2 cup each of flour and water after it's doubled; and let it sit out overnight (covered). 

 

Notice that he says to start the second stage after the first stage has doubled. Again, time is not specified because it will happen when it happens, not when a clock arbitrarily says it should.

 

In both cases, as I indicated above, the key's are pre-ferments and retarded fermentation. That is the big difference between artisan breads and more standard recipes.

 

Speaking of which, there is another major difference. Standard recipes almost always direct some variant of "punch down the dough" before shaping. Artisan bread makers go the opposite way; the usual goal, while shaping, is to degas the dough as little as possible. An exception would be when double proofing the dough. But rather than being aggressive, as the directions indicate, you want to be more gentle; pressing down on the dough. After the second proof, when moving on to the shaping stage, you degas as little as possible.

 

As you get more into serious bread making you'll be hearing about specialized techniques and proceedures. BDL refers to some of them above: autolyse, and French folding, for instance. Do not let them intimidate you. You'll learn them, over time. Each of these techniques has a particular purpose, and contributes to the final bread. But the thing to remember is that if you don't use them, it's not that you'll make a bad bread. You won't. It just means you won't be making the best bread you are capable of. The trick is understanding what each step contributes, and deciding how important that is to you.

 

Here's an example. After kneading the dough, either by hand or machine, you have three choices: You can, as most recipes instruct, pour it into an oiled bowl, cover it, and let it proof. You can let it rest for X minutes, and then pour it into the bowl. Or you can French fold it, and put it in the bowl.

 

I guarantee, whichever of those methods you use, you will produce a fully acceptible loaf of bread.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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