or Connect
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › General Discussions › The Late Night Cafe (off-topic) › Discussing grammar with my friend and me [not I]
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Discussing grammar with my friend and me [not I]

post #1 of 70
Thread Starter 

It's not likely we'll ever be able to change any of the bad habits that have taken root, blossomed and are now casting their vile seeds everywhere,  including in mass media where one would rightly expect to see correct grammar, pronunciation and spelling.  Even teachers are ignorant in this area.  My dear neighbor is a retired school teacher.  An example of something she might say would be "George went to town with Jean and I".    That affects me like [or should  it be as?] fingernails on a blackboard! 


Edited by amazingrace - 10/22/10 at 7:20pm
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #2 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by amazingrace View Post

That affects me like [or should  it be as?] fingernails on a blackboard! 



Like would be correct in this sentence because there is no verb after like, therefore it is acting as a preposition, which is correct usage. However, if you had said "That affects me as if someone was scraping fingernails on a blackboard" then as if would be correct. This rule really counts more in formal writing. For a message board, no one is going to call you out on like vs. as. At least they shouldn't.

 

BTW, props for using affects correctly. That's one that bothers me.

"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
post #3 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerm713 View Post

...BTW, props for using affects correctly. That's one that bothers me.

The effect of the misuse of "affect" affects me in ways that I'm hesitant to describe because of the adverse effect it might have on the one who misuses "affect", or for that matter, "effect"!
 

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #4 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerm713 View Post

Like would be correct in this sentence because there is no verb after like, therefore it is acting as a preposition, which is correct usage. However, if you had said "That affects me as if someone was scraping fingernails on a blackboard" then as if would be correct. This rule really counts more in formal writing. For a message board, no one is going to call you out on like vs. as. At least they shouldn't.

 

BTW, props for using affects correctly. That's one that bothers me.


If I were marking your paper, I would give you a very slight ding here.

 

That affects me like someone scraping fingernails on a blackboard [implied: would affect me].

 

That affects me as if someone were scraping fingernails on a blackboard.

 

The latter example requires the subjunctive mood. Really, both of the sentences require it, but in the first case the verb of the dependent clause is implied anyway --- would affect me.

 

On the words "affect" and "effect," I'm entirely in agreement with all of you.

 

Don't get me started about "it's", nor about "their" as a singular, neuter, possessive pronoun (e.g., every student should do their own homework).

post #5 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer View Post


If I were marking your paper, I would give you a very slight ding here.

 

That affects me like someone scraping fingernails on a blackboard [implied: would affect me].

 

That affects me as if someone were scraping fingernails on a blackboard.

 

The latter example requires the subjunctive mood. Really, both of the sentences require it, but in the first case the verb of the dependent clause is implied anyway --- would affect me.

 

On the words "affect" and "effect," I'm entirely in agreement with all of you.

 

Don't get me started about "it's", nor about "their" as a singular, neuter, possessive pronoun (e.g., every student should do their own homework).



Yeah, your right about subjunctive.

 

My last sentence contains perhaps my biggest pet peeve in grammar. Your, you are.  Come on people.

"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
post #6 of 70

You're also correct that the plural possessive, "their," was inappropriate for a single actor.  Indeed, every student should do its own homework.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 10/23/10 at 7:09pm
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
post #7 of 70

The problem with using "their" as singular is understandable, though.

 

Most people instinctively shy away from using "it" when referring to people. Once upon a time we merely used "he, his, etc." In other words, the masculine form held in both the male and general cases.

 

Nowadays, of course, such usage is politically incorrect. Among other things this has led to confusion, ambiguity, and awkwardness of sentance structure as people struggle to find the right form.

 

Personally, I find your general solution (i.e., using the female form in the general case) repugnant. All it does is reverse a cultural bias, without actually solving the problem.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #8 of 70

When so many people can't determine the difference between "lose" and "loose", or the difference between "to", "two", and "too", I give up on everything else. 

post #9 of 70

A panda eats, shoots and leaves.

 

This is a great thread to have made a typo in.


Edited by OregonYeti - 10/25/10 at 3:49pm
post #10 of 70

BTW, props for using affects correctly.

 

Grammer aside, I just can't keep up with today's abbreviations and meanings.

 

This one has been turning up a lot, later. Please: What is, or are, props in this usage?

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #11 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

BTW, props for using affects correctly.

 

Grammer aside, I just can't keep up with today's abbreviations and meanings.

 

This one has been turning up a lot, later. Please: What is, or are, props in this usage?


Yes, inquiring minds want to know. 
 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #12 of 70
Thread Starter 

Other irritations: 

1. Saying rout, when meaning route. 

 

"What route [root] did the general take to rout [rowt] the enemy?"

 

2. Data is not datta. 

 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #13 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by amazingrace View Post

Other irritations: 

...

2. Data is not datta. 

 

And "data" is plural, not singular, that is "datum" (and THAT is why my Mother insisted I take Latin in high school!)
 

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #14 of 70

Don't know whether it's just Scotland - but the inability to spell definitely correctly. I even HEAR it spoken as DEFINATELY! n And lots of my students use that spelling in written work.

post #15 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post



And "data" is plural, not singular, that is "datum" (and THAT is why my Mother insisted I take Latin in high school!)
 



This is correct. However, in modern usage, I think it is often acceptable to use some singular Latin nouns with an "s" at the end. For example, the correct way to refer to more than one stadium would be a group of "stadia". However, most people accept the usage of "stadiums" as well.

 

I really hate when people say "I could care less" or "I can't stress the importance of..." Both of these are counter intuitive, and anytime I hear someone say one of these phrases, I want to punch them. 

"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
post #16 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishbel View Post

Don't know whether it's just Scotland - but the inability to spell definitely correctly. I even HEAR it spoken as DEFINATELY! n And lots of my students use that spelling in written work.



OOPS! I'm guilty of this.  Even though I know the difference, that pesky A sneaks in there. 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #17 of 70
Thread Starter 

This one has popped up recently,  and it's very irritating to me:

 

"Suddenly the light bulb went OFF in my head, and I had a great idea".   Who started that?  When I get a great idea,  a light bulb goes ON! 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #18 of 70

Maybe a bomb went off?

post #19 of 70

My experiences as a manager had to deal with applications. I would always take the bad spellers and place them in a separate stack first, then read the ones with better grammar.

When I found that ALL the applications had grammatical/spelling errors, I had to go back and try another idea to separate the good from the bad.

With spell check and online dictionaries there is no excuse for bad grammar.

 

Another word that gets me is:

"irregardless."........

 

...or when people say..." On Saturday we's going to the city to see a movie.

post #20 of 70
Thread Starter 

"My sister and I's dog ran away".    We know that's wrong,  but what is correct? 

 

1."My sister and my's dog ran away" ... not

2, "My sister and my dog ran away" ... looks like the sister ran away also

3. "Our dog ran away" ... I like this only for it's simple correctness,  but it fails to define who "our" might be.

4. share your own version


Edited by amazingrace - 10/25/10 at 7:08am
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #21 of 70

How about "Our dog, my sisters' and mine, ran away"?

 

or

 

"My sister's and my dog ran away"? (Oops, that sounds like two dogs ran away)

 

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #22 of 70

I believe you have it right Pete, in option 2. I haven't looked it up to see if it's correct, but that appears to be the right way to say it. Just an awkward sentence all around.

"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
post #23 of 70
Thread Starter 

Mangy cur...I should have closed the gate.  Then we wouldn't have this problem. 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #24 of 70

We're going a little astray, when we look at the spoken word instead of the written word. Nobody speaks grammatically correct. Nor should they. Fully correct grammer is reserved for formal occasions, not day to day speech.

 

The real problem is the education system. Those who attended parochial school, or who otherwise studied Latin, tend to be more grammatically correct than those who attended public school.

 

Quick test for public school attendees only: Did you ever really learn to parse a sentance---or even know what that means?

 

Another word that gets me is:

"irregardless."........

 

Doesn't that just set your teeth on edge!

 

Another one:

 

Flamable----inflamable---nonflamable. Which one means the s-it won't burn?

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #25 of 70

I would always take the bad spellers........

 

Just out of curiosity, Chefross, what does spelling and grammer have to do with a person's ability to cook? I never thought of them as requisites to work BOH.

 

Or are we talking about a different job classification?

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #26 of 70

With spell check and online dictionaries there is no excuse for bad grammar.

 

You'd think so. But most people do not.

 

Saw a study, a few years back, on email habits. When it came to spelling and grammer checkers, turns out that editors and English teachers were the least likely to use them in their personal messaging.

 

And before anyone jumps on it, I'm fully aware that electronic communication is the only place where "message" is a verb.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #27 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

Quick test for public school attendees only: Did you ever really learn to parse a sentance---or even know what that means?

 

 

I'm a proud graduate of a public high school (in Louisiana, no less). Stereotypes would say I'm terrible with grammar. While I'm nowhere near a linguistic expert, I think my abilities are on par with most other equally educated individuals. To your question: yes. I can still remember breaking down sentences and drawing diagrams to identify parts of speech, determine the correct usage of modifiers, etc. However, I think the education I received was far better than what some receive in public schools.

 

However, if we want to get into the "plight of the education system" debate, I believe we first have to turn to the parents before looking at the schools themselves. Even in the schools that I went to -- which I feel are well above average, particularly for the deep south -- there were plenty of students that simply didn't learn some fundamentals of English, mathematics, etc. So what is the difference between one of those other students and myself? All I can deduce is the level of parenting and motivation. Both of my parents have baccalaureate degrees, and one parent has a master's degree in special education. Needless to say, my parents understand the value of a good education, and therefore pushed me to learn all that I could in school. Expectations were high, and so were the consequences for bad grades. If we really want to fix the education system in the United States, we have to start with the parents of the children that are attending public schools.

 

I shall step down from my soap box now...

"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
"We make our food; thereafter, our food makes us." - Winston Churchill (with a slight modification)
Reply
post #28 of 70
Di-A-Gram! In my short experience (graduated HS in 1960 and took Latin), most HS and even college students have little, if any, grasp as to the meaning of the word as relates to the study of English. And I take umbrage at the "verbalization" of nouns, especially certain "titles", such as "cheffing"! WTHDTM?
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #29 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

I would always take the bad spellers........

 

Just out of curiosity, Chefross, what does spelling and grammer have to do with a person's ability to cook? I never thought of them as requisites to work BOH.

 

Or are we talking about a different job classification?


I have my standards and quirks just like everybody else I guess. If I was hiring for a dishwasher, I don't think it's a problem, but if I were hiring for a cook, who has to read recipes, calculate quantities, take an inventory and create reports, then I feel these things are important.

post #30 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

 Fully correct grammer is reserved for formal occasions, not day to day speech.

 

 

 I disagree completely with this statement. I went to an ordinary public school,  but at a time when correctness was valued.  Grammar is a social skill.   Proper usage is always appropriate.   In addition,  it's quite easy to allow bad habits to creep in and become established if one is not careful. 

"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Late Night Cafe (off-topic)
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › General Discussions › The Late Night Cafe (off-topic) › Discussing grammar with my friend and me [not I]