Discussing grammar with my friend and me [not I] - Page 2

So you're saying you never use slang, or colloquial, or idiomatic expressions? Never verbally end a sentance with a preposition? Never start a sentence with a dependent clause? Or answer one with a fragment? I reckon regionalisms are banned from your vocabulary as well?

 I disagree completely with this statement.

Which, of course, is fully your right. But can you parse that sentence? My suggestion was that if you went to public school you probably can't. And, implied in that: if you can't parse it then you don't truly understand sentence structure. And if you don't understand structure, then you can't understand grammer and usage---no matter how hard you try.

Don't worry about it if you can't. I can't either. But I've successfully earned a living for more than 50 years by stringing words together, and judging the way others do so, by using the bane of English teachers: It just sounds right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

So you're saying you never use slang, or colloquial, or idiomatic expressions? Never verbally end a sentance with a preposition? Never start a sentence with a dependent clause? Or answer one with a fragment? I reckon regionalisms are banned from your vocabulary as well?

 

I think I'm guilty of all of those faults. It's tough to get the North Louisiana slang out sometimes. "Ain't" will never leave my spoken vocabulary. I end sentences with prepositions all the time. Everyone else does too. If you say you don't, you're lying.

Oh dear, are you saying that a preposition is the wrong thing to end a sentence with?

Not me, Pete. The strict grammarians.

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something I'm often guilty of.

Regarding grammar, I'm probably more picky than the average person. The goal of verbal communication is to say or write something so that the recipient(s) understands what you mean, as precisely as possible. Right? If I have to figure out what someone means because they didn't express it well, they could use some improvement, imo. On the other hand, if what they say or write wasn't strictly correct, but I understood it very well, I say they have communicated well with me. If it's in a formal context, such as on a resume or in formal public speech, I say it (grammar) matters a lot.

Then there's taking writing to an art form, which some here do imo. I include KYH, Chris Lehrer and others in that (not that my opinion matters, jes sayin ...)

completely=adjective

Completely modifies how you disagree. Therefore, in this case, completely would be an adverb, no?

not that my opinion matters, jes sayin ...)

Of course your opinion matters, OY. Whatever gave you the idea that it wouldn't?

In this context, however, the opinion that matters most is that of an editor with a checkbook.

Proper usage is always appropriate. 

Yes it is. But you may not be using that phrase correctly.

In verbal communication, "proper usage" is defined as the way the educated members of a community talk. Putting aside any argument over how to define "educated," the key word there is "community." Thus, a New Yorker and somebody from Alabama might not understand each other, even though they are both speaking properly.

Or, to put a point on it, when one of my neighbors with a masters degree says, "I don't care to...." when he means the exact opposite, that is proper usage in this community, even though it would be ambiguous, at best, outside of Kentucky.

I'm not saying any of those things.  I certainly do break the rules, most often in favor of convenience.

You're just proving my point---that people do not speak the way they write, and that the spoken word is more casual, and less constrained by formal rules. I would actually expand that to include writing on boards such as this, where few people actually pay attention to proper grammer, sentence structure, etc. In short, they write on message boards the way they talk. But I'd betcha the same person who comes across as semi-literate on a forum pays a lot more attention to those details when writing a report for work, or doing a homework assignment.

Thomas Jefferson was one of the worst public speakers in history because of that. He was such a perfectionist that he would be mentally editing and revising what he just said, which would cause him to stumble on the next statement, etc. But, when you can write the way he did, who cares how you talked. Compare, for instance:

"You been screwin' with us, and we ain't gonna take it no more," with the American Declaration of Independence. At base they both say exactly the same thing. But I'll take Jefferson's version. And, just to put a point on the written/verbal thing, I have no doubt that Sam Adams, when rabble rousing out in the streets, used some version of the first sentance.

As essentially a newbie here on this site, I'm absolutely fascinated that I've stumbled across a conversation between chefs and assorted foodies on points of grammar. Although highly entertaining (just the thought of it!) I'm quite heartened that there are people around, aside from erudite itellectuals hiding out in the Academy, to whom such things matter. Although I do consider myself a victim (sic) of public schools, the fault of my finding myself at a very late age in life, practically illiterate, is certainly my own fault as well. However, I am making a concerted effort to educate myself, daunting and frustrating as it seems sometimes. (When in the heck does one use the pesky "that" as in "He told me he went to the store" vs. "He told me THAT he went to the store"?? I find often I don't even know how to look these silly things up!

All that aside, my pet peeve is the politicization of language. No wonder some of us don't know what's correct!  We either have to call people "its" or have our verbs and pronouns disagree, so as not to offend women. Or, perhaps, enlightened men. Even worse, in my opinion, is that somehow the grammatical term "gender" came to be used exclusively for the "correct-for-thousands-of-years" word  -sex. Now that, to me, is like nails on a chalkboard (...would be!)  All this use of politically correct vocabulary and grammar is causing us to bend into grammatical contortions at best; at worst, IMO, it takes all of the "colour" out of life. Okay, off the soap box and back to the food forums....... 

Sounds to me like you're doing a pretty good job, FB.

FWIW, modern style is to eshew the use of "that" in that sort of usage. Most of the time, if you leave it out, nobody, even the strictest of grammarians, will notice.

Until reading the above, I was confused and thought the rule was, "Never end a sentence with a proposition." Consequently I avoided writing to or speaking with women who might tempt me. 

Armed with new knowledge regarding sentence termination, I will never again allow a verb to dangle.  And as to prepositional endings, which hell shall we consign them to?  Hopefully, people will learn to write and speak better. 

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

Until reading the above, I was confused and thought the rule was, "Never end a sentence with a proposition." Consequently I avoided writing to or speaking with women who might tempt me. 

 

Armed with new knowledge regarding sentence termination, I will never again allow a verb to dangle.  And as to prepositional endings, which hell shall we consign them to?  Hopefully, people will learn to write and speak better. 

 

BDL

You're another artist!

Ahhh this thread has given me many laughs.  In my household, my daughter is the grammar deputy, our boarder is the grammar sheriff, but I am the grammar witch.

Ever heard of the Oxford comma?  I've just used one above ,

Einstein could not spell

I wonder if his advisors minded the spelling and grammatical errors in his documents?

Here's something  Einstein and his advisors  would have appreciated....."s" be used instead of the soft"c".The hard "c" be replaces with"k".The troublesome"ph" be replaced with "f".No silent "e"s.Replace "th"by "z" and "w"by"v". The troublesome"ou" replaced by the simple"o"  and "u" replacing "a"

Und efter ,ve vil be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas!

Cheers to the Geniuses who installed Spell and Grammer check!  

Gypsy

Deutsche ist ein kinderspiel.

As one who often bridges the gap between Latin formality and plain English, I am struck by KYH's comparison of Jefferson and Adams. (I believe plain English is a sub-dialect of English, widely spoken by the indigenous, formerly immigrant peoples of North America). What's Ironic is that in medicine we can make up words and as long as the roots are Latin, nobody questions their validity. I wonder if the overuse of complex language by experts in a field is an attempt to insulate ones profession from infiltration by the lay person. As cool as it is to chart "the Pt offers subjective c/o puritus, with noted urticaria to posterior trunk." when I call the physician to ask for benadryl I say, "I gave You're post op in 15 morphine like you ordered and he got a a rash and is itching like a banshee." (Do Banshee's itch.) This is a mostly conscious effort on my part to cut through the BS. What's funny is that when speaking with teenagers I specifically focus on maintaining proper grammar in a vain attempt to minimize the use of the word "like" anytime someone paraphrases. Maybe I'm just a non-conformist.

Dark confessions, when a patient tells me they are nauseous I always chuckle to myself.

  Has anyone noticed that since the rise of texting, punctuation has become inter-changeable? I'm tired of commas and periods let's go with a semi colon here, or maybe  dash, a dash would be cool, no no an ellipses...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerm713 

Deutsche ist ein kinderspiel.

LOL......be that as it may the double letters take up alot of space and we could take the c right off our keyboard...just one less letter! What about the word Fotograf ...again shortened by 20%!

Besides being one of the world leaders in recycling,reducing waste ,conserving water (cause they have to) amazing cuisine and wine...I think we need to rethink the English language

Deutsche is looking very attractive......It vud kler up ulut uf kunfusun

Unfortunately, Gypsy, as everyone who has tried it has found out, the one thing you cannot preach in this country is spelling reform. That's why none of the synthetic languages ever caught on very widely.

Or, as GBS was credited with saying:

"What do you call people who speak Ido?

Idiots"

And if you ever need to highlight just how bad English is, in that regard, let me put it to you straight: English has eight ways of spelling the sound "a," two of which appear in this sentence.

English is a pastiche of many languages.  Both the grammar and spelling reflect that.  "Photograph" is spelled the way it is, not so much as a simple phoneme, but also as a memorialization that its root derivation is Greek and both the prefix and suffix roots contained the letter "phi."  

As a side note, a great deal of medical terminology stems from Greek rather than Latin; although Latin's dominance is a common misconception.  I recall a story about Rene Laennec's friends trying to help him name the stethoscope by mixing Latin and Greek and how irritated he became.  Our modern failures to differentiate follow a long tradition of (pervasive) medical ignorance.    

English grammar rules are even more complicated than those governing spelling as they attempt to cobble three major language groups -- Celtic, Germanic/Scandinavian, and Latinate -- together.  Although more complicated, English is very much like Latin in one way:  To speak properly is to speak elegantly.

Amo, amas, amat,

BDL

Oh what fun it is to ride on a one horse open sleigh!

(meaning I'm usually the lone wolf on these conversations......lol)

KY and BDL ....did you happen to get the joking sarcasm behind my threads? You two Americans should be ashamed of yourself....not lightening up on a subject so close to home for both of you.

Meaning ( no offence intended) America is the country most criticized for the misuse of the spoken word.  I believe you call it English....but in what State?

Lighten up boys.....yes BDL, I have worked for one of the catering giants in Canada and he is as Greek as they come and YES all words are Greek and derived from Greek according to him....lol.....and BTW I did take Latin in school....My brother in law is Greek and lectures me everytime I see him on  all words derived from the  Greek language....hahahaha

Peace

Gypsy

edited for grammatical errors

I don't think many people realize how many similarities there are with English and German. Sentence structure is much more similar than with English/Latin. Many words are either the same or cognitives.

KY and BDL ....did you happen to get the joking sarcasm behind my threads?

Apparently not. Perhaps you're not as obvious as you think you are.

Gotta just love mobile/cell phone texting abbreviations as a way to destroy a language.  Probably not only in English I'm guessing.

As in:

BTW = by the way

FYI = for your information

BFFL =  best friend for life

WTF = (well I think we can all guess that one correctly)

C U L8R = see you later

....etc etc ad nauseum infinitum.

Plus all the "smilies"

XD = laughing happy face

DX = angry sad frustrated face

:$ = (well I'm not really sure on this one)

=> = stupidly happy

=< = really sad

Oh yes, I have 3 teenagers in the house, BTW.

German has three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. Goetterverdammerung. If you want to put a noun in a sentence, you have to know which of the three genders it's in before you can say anything.

One way I wish we had learned more from German is how they are allowed to make one very long word from a few just long ones. "Hottentotentantenattentat" is a for-fun word, but follows the rules. Strassenkreuzung is a commonly-used word, from what I learned. Strumpf, pronounced "shtroompf" is one of my favorites for its sound. I like the way German sounds, and it's more consistent than either English or American.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Sunshine 

Gotta just love mobile/cell phone texting abbreviations as a way to destroy a language.  Probably not only in English I'm guessing.

 

As in:

BTW = by the way

FYI = for your information

BFFL =  best friend for life

WTF = (well I think we can all guess that one correctly)

C U L8R = see you later

....etc etc ad nauseum infinitum.

 

Plus all the "smilies"

XD = laughing happy face

DX = angry sad frustrated face

:$ = (well I'm not really sure on this one)

=> = stupidly happy

=< = really sad

 

Oh yes, I have 3 teenagers in the house, BTW.

That's a whole other language,imo

btw, I use it in chat

May I say I know another language, aside from American LOL

I like how logical German is. "Schrank" means cabinet or somewhere you store things. "Kleider" means clothes. Therefore, a closet is a "kleiderschrank". My favorite, however, is the German word for a refrigerator: "kühlschrank". "Kühl" means - wait for it - cool. Love it.  

However, perhaps the most interesting German word, particularly for foodies, is "Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz", which refers to the laws that dictate how beef is packed.

I also like that, similarly to Spanish, how a word looks is how it's pronounced. There are no surprises. Just a few rules, then you can pronounce anything, including the monster above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerm713 

 

I also like that, similarly to Spanish, how a word looks is how it's pronounced. There are no surprises. Just a few rules, then you can pronounce anything, including the monster above.

Like Hindi, an almost perfectly phonetic language ... it's pronounced how it's spelled, and it's spelled how it's pronounced. That makes things a lot easier! By the way, I've read that Arabic is the closest to being a perfectly phonetic language. fwiw lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by amazingrace 

"My sister and I's dog ran away".    We know that's wrong,  but what is correct? 

 

1."My sister and my's dog ran away" ... not

2, "My sister and my dog ran away" ... looks like the sister ran away also

3. "Our dog ran away" ... I like this only for it's simple correctness,  but it fails to define who "our" might be.

4. share your own version

 

 

"The dog that my sister and I own ran away." That's a better version that I can think of.

You'd say, "My sister's dog."  You'd say, "My dog."  Put them together and you have the correct form, "My sister's and my dog ran away" -- a perfectly proper presentation. 

What's the cause of the confusion?  Is it the the repetition of the word "my?" 

If so, look at it this way.  "My" is the proper first person possessive pronoun as subject to the participle (in other words it's the possesive form of "I," while "mine" is the possessive form of "me").  The first "my" possesses "sister," and the second posesses "dog."  Since the phrase "My sister's dog" does not convey joint ownership, while using the second "my" does even though the word repeats it is not redundant, since each refers to a different possession.

If you each had a dog which ran away, or the two of you shared ownership of two or more dogs which ran away, you could say "Both my sister's and my dogs ran away."  But because that's ambiguous you might want to clarify.  

On a related subject, I think it's fair to say something like "Modern Spanish is closer to classic Latin than Italian or French," but it's a lot harder to peg English and a near relationship to another language -- or even language group -- over another.  Modern English and German syntax and grammar are quite different with parts of speech appearing in completely different order.  The Romans and the Normans gave as much to English as the Angles, Jutes, Danes and Saxons.  German and English grammars are no more similar than English grammar and the Romance grammars. 

One last thing:  "Discussing grammar with my friend and me," is not a well constructed phrase.  "Me" is redundant as it is implied.  The proper construction is, "Discussing grammar with my friend."  If you needed to Moreover, if it weren't redundant, "I" would be proper and not "me," because "friend and I" were subjects of the verb "discussing," even though they appeared after it.  Like it or not, subjects sometimes appearing after the participle is one of English's cuter tricks.

BDL