Giving a Chef Knife as a Gift?

Thiers Issard and K-Sab Stainless: 

Both Sabatiers make stainless chef's knives in French and German profiles.  There's not much point in buying the German profiles, you can get better (including Lamson, btw) for less. 

I'm not a huge fan of the stainless alloy(s) used by the Sabatiers.  It's neither particularly better nor worse than the "high end" X50CrMoV15 used by the Germans in their good knives, and by Forschner in their Fibrox and Rosewood lines. 

But, the French profile knives are lighter and handle better than their German profiled counterparts.  The K-Sab lines you're looking for are Authentique and Authentique 1834.  I'm not sure if there's any difference between them other than packing.

All of the others are variations on a German theme. 

LamsonSharp:

Setting aside the fact that it's made in America, it's a good German knife like any other good German knife, e.g., Wusthof and Henckels.  Again with the X50CrMoV15.  Great if you like a lot of weight and arc, not so great if you want sharpness and agility.  Lots of quality for the money.

They sort of specialize in wide chef's knives, which I find very awkward. 

FKM and Tojiro DP:

Lousy handles.  F&F issues.  Decent alloys (especially the Tojiro), decent profiles.  A good introduction to Japanese made western style knives but I question their suitability as gifts -- at least for civilians.  Could work for a new pro though. 

The big issue with moving from western knives to sharpening.  If they do sharpen, you're sending your friends into the wonderful world of waterstones -- do you really want to do that?   If they aren't decent sharpeners (or don't plan on learning), Japanese knives are a waste of time and money.  On a related note, Japanese made knives don't take abuse well.  They are not meant for splitting chickens, beheading large fish, or other heavy duty tasks of the sort German knives do very well.  If you buy Japanese, tell friends to hold on to their Mercers.

MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Other Expensive Knives:

There are some pretty good knives at this price level -- which is a good step and a half up from what you were initially prepared to spend. 

The MAC Pro and Masamoto VG are especially good knives for professional use.  I don't want to delve too deeply into analyzing this price class unless and until you do your own pricing and decide if you're willing to spend the money.

It's tiresome for me to repeat this and I apologize -- but don't waste money on knives which won't be sharpened frequently and properly or which won't be used and cared for appropriately.  Sharp is what the money is about in the first place. 

Togiharu Moly:

Better finished than FKM or Tojiro DP.  But very narrow handles; which may or may not be an issue.  It isn't with me, nor for most people who use a pinch grip.  Just sayin' is all.

I like their prices, but feel the Misono Moly (better) and Kagayaki (cheaper) have enough going for them that good as they are for the price, I wouldn't consider a Tog Moly.

Misono Moly:

If you can find them at a price which fits your budget, get them by all means.  Even if they don't use the wonder alloys or have the extreme hardness of their more expensive bretheren they are excellent knives in every way.  Great handles and very well finished for a Japanese knife in the price range.

Kagayaki Basic, VG and CarboNext:

As you know, Kagayaki is JCK's "house brand" in much the same way Togiharu is Korin's.  Neither JCK nor Korin makes the knives, and it's unlikely that these lines, except for cosmetics, are "exclusive" to either seller.

The Basic and the Togiharu Moly have a lot in common, including skinny handles.  They're sufficiently similar that they may (or may not) be made by the same OEM manufacturer.  Whether brothers of the same or different mother, they're certainly brothers.  Not as good as the Misono Moly, but cheaper -- much cheaper.

The Kagayaki VG has been around for awhile and getting a lot of favorable response.  My impression was that a little money bought you a decent profile and a very good alloy for the money. 

Many VG-10 knives, including the Kagayaki and the Togiharu G-1 (expensive) have an issue with what I like to call "tenacious burrs."  So, again sharpening raises its head.  If your friends are good sharpeners that's not much of an issue.  If they're new to it, you may want to look at something else.

Finally, JCK is selling a new Kagayaki, the "CarboNext."  It's actually a semi-stainless tool steel of one sort or another.  In terms of maintenance it's a lot more stainless than carbon, and in terms of sharpening and durability it's more like carbon than stainless. 

As a die-hard carbon guy of many decades, I have to say that I'm thrilled with my first tool steel knife.  But let me add that not all tool steels are created equal and that whatever alloy Konosuke used to make my knife is almost certainly not the same as what whoever makes Kagayaki is using in JCK's.

Guys in the Knife Forum and at Fred's are breathlessly comparing the CarboNext to the current flavor of the month tool steel chef's, the Kikuichi ITK.  Unfortunately, that's hysteria -- no one really knows enough yet to say for sure. 

The early response to the Kagayaki CarboNext is very favorable, and it probably should be at or near the top of your list if you're going Japanese.  After MAC and Masamoto, CarboNext would be my choice, then Misono.

Hope this helps,

BDL

BDL; "...FKM and Tojiro DP:  Lousy handles.  F&F issues... " 

I can only speak for the FKM's that I use almost daily; absolutely total nonsense, BDL! These FKM knives are perfectly finished and have excellent handles. Any FKM user on the knifeforums that you know so well, will confirm this. May I ask wether you have ever handled these?

I can't say anything about the Tojiro since I never used or tried one.

BDL; "...Misono Moly:

If you can find them at a price which fits your budget, get them by all means.  Even if they don't use the wonder alloys or have the extreme hardness of their more expensive bretheren they are excellent knives in every way.  Great handles and very well finished for a Japanese knife in the price range.

I happen to own a Misono moly 270 mm as well. It's my workhorse for tasks like cutting through lobster, butternut squash etc. It's exactly the same steel as the FKM!

These Misono are a little more robust than the FKM's. Have you handled these too, BDL? So strange, I would put the FKM and the Misono on the same level when it comes to fit and finish! And, I know what I'm talking about from hands-on experience... If the OP has a tight budget, then why wouldn't you recommend a FKM instead of a Misono moly, since these knives have both an excellent reputation from real users?

Chris,

Yes, I've tried out FKMs and Misono Molys, both -- including sharpening them.  My comments are based on my own experience and on those of others as well.  There's only so much you can learn about a knife from sharpening it once and using for prepping a couple of meals (although as it happens I've had more experience than that with both FKM and Moly -- especially Moly), just as there's only so much you can learn about a knife line from handling one example -- even for years.  If I haven't personally handled a knife I say so or clearly imply it, just as I did for the Kagayaki CarboNext.

You may love your Fujwara FKM and Misono Moly, and if you're happy I'm ecstatic.  But in the esoteric universe that is high-end Japanese knives, they're mere budget priced "starters" aka "student-knives."  On the other hand, there's no doubt both knives are not only good knives (especially compared to Euro made blades) but great values as well.  If I made you feel I was "dissing" either one of them than I apologize for my poor communication skills.  But, in my opinion, the Misono chef's are better than FKMs for their handles, geometry and (generally) better finish.

Compared to the Tojiro DPs the FKMs are more nicely made, but not as robust nor made from as good steel.  According to several reliable sources -- including Mark at CKTG -- Tojiro is "secretly" saying the DP's new hagane is VG-10.  A few years ago, Tojiro's F&F has improved quite a bit over the last couple of years, but their handles are still blocky.  A lot of people find the handles problematic while others like them.  Most people think the blades are excellent. 

Personally, I don't like any san-mai knife if for no other reason than that they feel somewhat damped to me; and would consequently choose both the FKM and the Moly before the (san-mai) DP.  But since my reasons aren't exactly what you'd call common I dont make an issue of it.  As it happens, I'd choose the Moly before the FKM and thought it worthwhile to say why. 

No doubt AJ the OP values your opinion as highly, and you're free to say what you do and don't like about those two.  I gather you like them equally and would therefore recommend the FKM over the Misono because it's about 1/3 less expensive.  Is that fair?

On what facts do you base your assertion that the Misono and Fujiwara are the same alloy?  I keep my ear pretty close to the ground on knife related subjects and have never heard that.  Neither company reveals the identities of those alloys, and other than "molybdenum," their respective descriptions are different.  For instance, Fujiwara stresses "vanadium." Misono does not, but mentions high carbon content.   As you presumably know, not all "moly" steels are the same.  What makes you say those two are? 

BDL

BDL; ...No doubt AJ the OP values your opinion as highly, and you're free to say what you do and don't like about those two.  I gather you like them equally and would therefore recommend the FKM over the Misono because it's about 1/3 less expensive.  Is that fair?....

BDL, well I do remember that AJ's restriction was around 100$ and I do know the quality of both knives from experience and I still don't agree with what you posted on the FKM's F&F. Otherwise I would also have mentioned Nenox or even the fabulous Hattori FH's.

AJ, sharpening on waterstones may look a little strange or difficult, but it's not all that difficult and you can maintain any non-japanese knife on it too. Please remind that there are no bad knives, there are only badly sharpened knives...

I do have to add that thousands of chefs in the European culinary world use Japanese Globals. Last monday I saw Michel Roux JR (2 michelin stars) on the BBC perform some incredible dishes, using a tiny Global.

Globals are popular simply because they are really good for straightening the edge with a steel, something they all learned. Of course, steeling is not sharpening as such, many leave the actual sharpening to a sharpening service.

If you want to buy a present any chef would really like and will remember  long time, take a look at this sale at Japan Blades. Not a knife, but a gorgeous sommelier, now on sale! I just recieved mine a couple of days ago. It's a real beauty!

http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/2614.html 

I guess this is where I jump in. I bought a Global about 3 months ago and love it. I think it's a great knife for many home cooks. BUT, I use it a little each day, or maybe every two days. Your friends will be using these knives every day, and for a while each day. While I personally really like the feel of the Global, it does dull rather quickly as far as Japanese knives go. Probably not the best option for someone who will be using a knife constantly. My Global was about $80, and for that price, it was worth it to give it a try. I think for a little more, you can do better, especially when it comes to durability.

AJ,

Where we left off:

As you've discovered with your carbon Sabs, there's a world of difference between sharp, agile knives and the regular German style, Euro stainless most people use.  If you really want to give your friends stainless knives which provide sharpness AND agility -- which is self evidently the case -- that moves you into Japanese made knives.  But then sharpening raises it's big ol' head and confusion reigns.   

Is there any chance you can talk to the soon to be minted culinary grads about knives before buying these gifts?  If you like you can put them together with me and I'll go through the whole analysis schtick that seems to help with making the choice -- at least for some people.

Even if you're used to a German profile, the adjustment to French is easy and doesn't take much thought.  One "rock chops" as well as the other.  French knives move around the board more easily and don't require the handle to be "pumped" as much.  On the other hand German knives provide a little more power which is primarily useful when the knife is quite dull. 

Good Euros:

If I were If I were the one making a gift of a European made knives you've discussed, it would be one of the Sabatiers for their wonderful profiles and handles rather than the Lamson.  Messermeisters are very nice (maybe a little out of your price range, though). 

Wusthof Ikons are fairly light and move around pretty well.  In terms of profile and agility, they're a nice sort of compromise between Japanese and German knives.  Unfortunately, they're made from the same mediocre, soft "German steel" alloy as nearly everything else (including inexpensive Forschners) at the German high end (Messers are a quarter step better), and are almost double what you want to spend.  In the end, because they're all made from X50CrMoV15 or something very much like it, because they're all so beautifully made, because they're by and large so well supported, because they all have excellent handles, etc., one good German knive is pretty much like another. 

Bottom Line on Euro Stainless:

One of the Sabatiers, or Messermeister if you can afford it.

Globals:

There are a lot of nice things to say about Global and some not so nice.  As one of the first Japanese knives in the western market they enjoyed a huge burst of popularity and respect in the US, but aren't nearly as sought after as they once were.  They are still quite popular in other parts of the world, especially the UK, Oz and NZ.

On the plus side, the profiles are extremely well done and they are quite agile compared to anything with a German profile and are better in that respect than many Japanese made French profile knives.  No kidding, they are really agile -- almost Sabatier/Masamoto like.  Also, they are EXTREMELY well finished -- and not just for Japanese knives. 

Most of them (except for the larger, forged chef's) are designed for a dead neutral balance.  Some people like that and some people don't.  Most skilled cutters don't care much; but "most" is by no means all and your friends may have their own opinions.

On the debit side of the ledger the easiest problem to point out is the handle.  Some people don't like them right off the bat; and quite a few others fall out of love after a few months.  Since I don't have a problem with them, I can only tell you what I've gleaned -- and that is that is they feel insecure, which promotes a death grip, which in turn leads to hand pain.  This is especially true in a professional environment.  On the other hand, you don't hear a lot of that from Europe or "the Empire."  My feeling is that the problems originate with imperfect grip mechanics and/or poor sharpness (causing the cutter to use more force than (s)he would with a very sharp knife).

Whether or not you like the handle the blade is quite thick (around 3mm) and despite it's great profile will wedge as badly as any Wusthof or Lamson. 

Now we get into the real problem areas which are edge holding and edge taking.  Tyler did a good job of talking about the edge holding deficiencies (h/t Tyler).  Besides those, it's just darn difficult to ever put a good edge on a Global.  The underlying problem is the alloy itself, CroMoVa18, which has enough chromium (18% as opposed to the 13% minimum "stainless" standard), it could be a dive knife.  It's amazing it takes as good an edge as it does, but that's nowhere near as good as what you can do with one of your Sabs or nearly any other Japanese made stainless knife in or above its price range. 

Back to the positve side, while Global makes a big deal out of using special sharpening gear, the knives actually sharpen pretty well on oilstones.  In fact, I think they actually sharpen better on Indias and Arkansas stones than on most waterstones. 

Bottom Line on the Globals: 

Unlike most knife guys, I actually like them (for the agility and the handle).  Comparing a Global to a Lamson is like comparing a Porsche to a Suburban.  But, they're made of an alloy which is lousy in every way other than corrosion resistance.  The verdict on Global is the same, for different reasons, as for Shun.  There are better Japanese knives for the less money, and much better for the same.

Chris,

Since you haven't mentioned your source for claiming the Misono Moly and the FKM are made from the same steel, can we assume the assertion is no longer in play?   

No one's recommending $300+ cutlery.  If you want to debate the merits of this or that knife, you don't need to resort to a "straw man."

I don't consider myself to be the last word on any knife in particular, knives in general, or anything else culinary or otherwise.  Whatever you say about your experiences I accept and add to my internal database as one more entry in the file of other people's contributions. I treat your suppositions and conclusions with as much respect as I treat anyone's, including my own.  Admittedly, that is not a whole lot. 

I'm more than happy to stipulate that the FKM has good -- even very good -- fit and finish for a Japanese knife in its price range.  It's certainly hugely better than older Tojiro DPs; and largely better than current DPs for that matter.  However, you have to admit that compared to other choices in quality Japanese made western knives, both are "entry level" and/or "student," and priced accordingly.  Perhaps it's just class prejudice, but I think a graduation present is worth one step up.    

I don't know how many FKM's and Misono Molys I've seen.  Perhaps a half dozen FKMs and a dozen Molys.  In my experience, the Molys -- taken as a class -- have better F&F than the Fujiwaras.  Your experience is different.  I'm sure AJ and everyone else reading this thread appreciates it.  I know I do.  In addition, I believe most people would say Misono Moly's have better profiles and more comfortable handles than the FKMs.  My impression is that edge taking and holding are similar, but that they are not made of the same alloy.  At any rate, they don't feel the same on the stones.  Also (obviously, in my opinion), the Misonos do represent that one step.  Your opinion is otherwise, which is fine by me. 

If I seem aggressive about going after (what I think) is misinformation, all I can ask is that you balance that against my patience to explain and willingness to stand corrected when shown to be wrong.  It may not be pretty, but it's how I learn.

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

On the debit side of the ledger... 

As a public accountant, this amuses me. However, I think credit would be more accurate in this case, unless you're a banker, then it makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium 

 

If you want to buy a present any chef would really like and will remember  long time, take a look at this sale at Japan Blades. Not a knife, but a gorgeous sommelier, now on sale! I just recieved mine a couple of days ago. It's a real beauty!

http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/2614.html 

I've drooled over that beautiful waiter's corkscrew for a long time.  Indeed that would be a fine gift for any oenophile.

Hey AJ,

Originally Posted by AJ Huff 

"The only one" sharpening in school -- which translates to the only one with sharp knives -- is all too typical.  But what are you going to do?  You'd think after the other students saw the difference it makes they'd start sharpening their own knives.  But noooooooo.

Asking seems like it might be a little uncomfortable as the prelude to a gift, but this is one of those times it makes perfect sense.  Professional tools as gifts are a bit like lingerie.  Some things you need to know in advance.
 

They're your friends, you know best, and neither play strikes me as a bad idea.  But (knew that was coming, didn't you?) if you want to share the joy with them you're probably better off doing it in a straightforward manner and just giving the knife.  Because they're young friends in the trade the situation is different than the OP giving a gift to his father.   

It's a good idea to get a handle on the whole sharpening thing before buying stretching your budget on a high-end knife for yourself, but you're holding the purse strings fairly tightly.  And since your friends are professionals sharpening is something they're going to have to figure out for themselves if they already haven't.  Let them be responsible for their own stones. 

Speaking of plays, here are a couple of other possibilities to take the onus off sharpening.  One is to get together when you give them their gifts and show them the rudiments.  I.e, flattening, prepping soaking the stones; pulling a wire and deburring; not to mention the proper way to use a steel (something else not taught in most culinary schools).  The second is to have them bring their new knives over so you can put the first real edge on -- naturally they'll watch and have lots of question.  Either way, they'll at least pick up ideas of what they need to learn (and purchase) on their own.   

BDL

The CarboNext is a fantastic knife.  I'm sure she'll be very pleased.

Make sure to attach a penny to the box for her to symbolically "pay you" for it. 

Call me superstitious, but it's bad luck to give a weapon as a gift, so the symbolic penny payment denies malevolent spirits their mischief ;)