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Tojiro DP F-809 240mm Gyuto a Good Budget/Entry level Intro to Japanese Knives? - Page 3

post #61 of 104

It's a much better idea to keep the angle the same on both sides -- otherwise you'll never train your wrist to hold the correct angle and you'll have to "click in" every time you turn the knife over.  

 

Don't let the exactitude of the numbers fool you.  70/30 seems very technical, but it isn't; it's merely shorthand for 2 to 1.  You determine the ratio of asymmetry by doing nothing more sophisticated than looking at the knife.  If one bevel is twice as wide as the other... there you go.  That's your 70/30.  

 

70/30 works well for most people.  It's just symmetric enough for the knife to be trued on a steel, when it needs truing; and sufficiently asymmetric to avoid most wedging and pick up a touch of extra perceived sharpness and not lose too much durability.

 

It's also very easy to sharpen, because it It nearly always takes about twice as much work to draw a burr on the first side you sharpen.  So, all you have to do is draw a burr on the the side you want to be the 70, then flip the knife over and draw a burr on the other side.  Inspect the knife and continue working whichever side most needs it; then chase the burr as you would normally do.  In other words, do everything as you normally would just make sure you start sharpening on the proper face. 

 

A honesuke is designed as a special purpose knife for doing the kind of poultry work, you probably don't do.  Furthermore, be aware that you'll still need something heavy duty -- like a deba, chef de chef, "meat cleaver," an old beater of a chef's knife, or even a garasuke -- for splitting backs and keelbones, trimming the tips off spare ribs, etc. 

 

In my opinion, (a) western knives are better for the heavy duty stuff because they are so much more chip resistant; and (b) a petty does the light stuff better than any of the specialty Japanese boning knives.   But what do I know?

 

If you absolutely, positively must have a Japanese boning knife, you'd probably find a hankotsu would suit your needs better. 

 

Be aware that any of the Japanese boning styles are not only sharpened asymmetric but forged and ground that way as well.  In other words, they are not ambidextrous but are right handed unless specifically ordered left-handed.  Whether or not that matters to you -- at least you know now.

 

In my experience, honesukes in particular are most popular with people who feel the need to complete a set of Japanese knives and who aren't really technical cutters yet.  There are certainly exceptions to that.  And, perhaps, the most important thing to remember is that any really sharp knife can perform just about any knife task pretty well.  

 

If you do get any boning knife, your 2K is a pretty good finishing level -- so you may want to hold on to it or swap it for a different stone at more or less the same level.

 

As nice as the Suehiro Rika is, it really acts more like a 3K than a 5K and does not compare to the Arashiyama/Takenoko as a finishing stone.  They do different things.  The Rika is an extremely pleasant stone to use, and you can make the Rika polish up to a kinda sorta 5K level by really working the mud and breaking down the abrasive; but it's nowhere near as fast as the Arashiayama to draw a burr, nor will it give you anywhere near the same level of "slippery" polish. 

 

It's confusing, but the grit numbers only tell you so much.  Stones have their own personalities, you have to work with them to figure them out.  Your best strategy (and mine too) is to ask people we trust who have used them.  Of course, that means figuring out the people too -- whom you should listen to and who will only waste your time.  

 

Phaedrus is an excellent source, btw.  

 

At some point you're going to outgrow CT as a source of knife and sharpening advice -- in fact you may already have -- and you'll want to look in at one of the specialty boards like Fred's Cutlery Forum.   

 

Hope this helps,

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 12/29/10 at 8:04am
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post #62 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post



Quote:

I did get reasonably good results from what I have available and just increasing the passes on the 70 side and using a slightly higher angle on the 30 side, but am not sure what you mean by sort it out etc.

 

 

Sorry, missed this part.  By "sort it out" I meant that as you changed the geometry by taking a bit here and there the knife would sort of "tell you what to do."  I could get all Zen and say it speaks to you if you listen...but in more practical terms you can use some magnification, too, and just see what's going on.  But even with the naked eye and just "using the Force" and feeling the way the edge bites the stone you can tell if you're at the right angle.


Scary that I understand your point here, or at least think I do :)

 

And the force is not something meant for mere mortals LMAO

 

Still I may have to invest in some decent magnification in the future as these edges are getting well beyond the ability of the 3x or 5x I currently have and it would be great to have some baseline to attach to "feel" and not have to wonder if that feeling was just gas or something.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #63 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post

Mark is a great guy and I don't want to suggest abusing his good nature.  But if he's willing to let you return the Shapton you should.  He'll probably be fine with it, especially since you'll likely use the money/credit to get the Suehiro Rika or something.  That would be a good idea.  We've discussed stones a lot, and you know my opinion- if you can have only 1 stone, get a 1k.  If you're allowed two, add a 4k/5k/6k.  If you have the luxury of a third, you can choose between a higher polish yet or an arato- and of the two choices the coarse stone is the smarter.  I've been playing with the Beston 500 and for the money it's a really good stone.  It's not as good as the 400 Chocera but much cheaper.  Honestly, a great progression would be the 500 Beston for the low end, a good 1k (the Chocera if you can swing it, otherwise the Naniwa SS or the Shapton Pro 1k- it's a great stone!) and a good 4k/5k/6k.  I guess the Suehiro Rika is pretty hard to beat for the money.

 

VG-10 isn't as easy to sharpen as carbon.  Of course, that's part of why it stays sharp longer.  It takes some grinding to make an impression on that steel, and the burr won't wipe off like wiping your nose, either!wink.gif

Sorry to make you go through that once more for it to fully sink in.

 

I believe I will end up with a 1K and either 5K or 6K for now, and then add at both ends of the spectrum later on.

 

So far my experience with the VG10 on the Tojiro has only been experimental. By that I mean when I took the petty to the 2000 paper it was able to change the surface of the bevel on the small section that I tested, but it was much different than the results on the same paper with the Fujiwara FKM SS. What I did find was interesting as the scratches produced were appearing to be more coarse than the factory finish, but oddly the factory finish was actually more coarse and had deeper scratches BUT also had a higher polish over these scratches but did not remove those scratches. Since the factory finish is sharp enough etc I decided to let it go until I get a decent polishing stone, and much as it seems I can't wait to start "playing" with all the new toys etc I have accepted it be better to wait.

 

The other thing that I still to learn or understand better is that though these two blades have similar HRC ratings (58-59 vs 60-61) it already seems that they are very different, and will sharpen much differently as well. I expect I will know better once I get the VG10 onto a proper stone etc, but so far it seems harder. Harder in HRC and also to sharpen.
 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #64 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

It's a much better idea to keep the angle the same on both sides -- otherwise you'll never train your wrist to hold the correct angle and you'll have to "click in" every time you turn the knife over.  

 

So stay between 10-15 on both sides (as best as possible etc)? The Fuji was much closer on the angle of the back/short side (and I lower this somewhat also) than what I had experience with previously when opening my Henckels Spain chefs. Sadly this is the only one I have previous experience with, was my own odd creation at around 80/20, and except for a few completely asymmetric folders (which were actually a bit of fun though a learning experience for sure).

 

Don't let the exactitude of the numbers fool you.  70/30 seems very technical, but it isn't; it's merely shorthand for 2 to 1.  You determine the ratio of asymmetry by doing nothing more sophisticated than looking at the knife.  If one bevel is twice as wide as the other... there you go.  That's your 70/30.  

 

No problem with increasing that slightly?

 

70/30 works well for most people.  It's just symmetric enough for the knife to be trued on a steel, when it needs truing; and sufficiently asymmetric to avoid most wedging and pick up a touch of extra perceived sharpness and not lose too much durability.

 

It's also very easy to sharpen, because it It nearly always takes about twice as much work to draw a burr on the first side you sharpen.  So, all you have to do is draw a burr on the the side you want to be the 70, then flip the knife over and draw a burr on the other side.  Inspect the knife and continue working whichever side most needs it; then chase the burr as you would normally do.  In other words, do everything as you normally would just make sure you start sharpening on the proper face. 

 

Just by completely by chance, but that is for the most part how it went. Only difference was that it seemed the angle on the short side was not as acute as the long side.

 

A honesuke is designed as a special purpose knife for doing the kind of poultry work, you probably don't do.  Furthermore, be aware that you'll still need something heavy duty -- like a deba, chef de chef, "meat cleaver," an old beater of a chef's knife, or even a garasuke -- for splitting backs and keelbones, trimming the tips off spare ribs, etc. 

 

Wow, well since you just enlightened me to the fact that the honesuke will not be the best choice for some of the things I was mentally delegating to it I will have to rethink this some, and guess I am not completely finished with the knife decisions :)

 

Like I said earlier I do not break down lots of birds etc, but do quarter them, split breasts and the like. Of course since you mention ribs that was one of the other things I was planning on. I have the beater in the Mundial chefs knife, and do not mind using it etc, but am really not looking forward to keeping it all that long due to the soft steel and sharpening issues.

 

I do also have an older unknown cleaver that is unknown SS and made in Japan that I had used on and off for a long while. It is not the hardest steel, and looks like a lower end product with half tang and two sort of almost tight rivets lol, but it has done the job when called on and sharpened no worse than the westerns have.It does seem to be 440 SS, but thats a guess, and about all I know about it.

 

In my opinion, (a) western knives are better for the heavy duty stuff because they are so much more chip resistant; and (b) a petty does the light stuff better than any of the specialty Japanese boning knives.   But what do I know?

 

If you absolutely, positively must have a Japanese boning knife, you'd probably find a hankotsu would suit your needs better. 

 

Will look into this suggestion as I am not familiar with it. What is it best at?

 

Be aware that any of the Japanese boning styles are not only sharpened asymmetric but forged and ground that way as well.  In other words, they are not ambidextrous but are right handed unless specifically ordered left-handed.  Whether or not that matters to you -- at least you know now.

 

This to me is just different, and not a problem or real negative but like you say "what do I know".

 

In my experience, honesukes in particular are most popular with people who feel the need to complete a set of Japanese knives and who aren't really technical cutters yet.  There are certainly exceptions to that.  And, perhaps, the most important thing to remember is that any really sharp knife can perform just about any knife task pretty well.  

 

So what exactly would you recommend using a honsuke for? I do agree on the sharp knife issue, and remember when first working in a commercial kitchen as a teenager one cook who used his 12" chef for almost everything. Trust me that I do not think I am the one to say what is the better way, but understand that I am observant of all the statements pro and con for all opinions. What I mean is that it makes absolute sense to be able to use ones skills with a sharp knife to do more than it was designed for etc, but also just as strongly on the idea of improving on that with a knife designed for the purpose at hand.

 

Still I need to figure out what to replace the santoku with.

 

If you do get any boning knife, your 2K is a pretty good finishing level -- so you may want to hold on to it or swap it for a different stone at more or less the same level.

 

OK now I am feeling completely bi-polar HELP! :D

 

As nice as the Suehiro Rika is, it really acts more like a 3K than a 5K and does not compare to the Arashiyama/Takenoko as a finishing stone.  They do different things.  The Rika is an extremely pleasant stone to use, and you can make the Rika polish up to a kinda sorta 5K level by really working the mud and breaking down the abrasive; but it's nowhere near as fast as the Arashiayama to draw a burr, nor will it give you anywhere near the same level of "slippery" polish. 

 

More good information that I have been after on stones. Again thanks to everyone who has offered their experiences as this issue has been the most confusing.

 

The more I learn about these two stones I find that both sound like something I would like to have. Of course since funds will not allow it right now I still have to choose between them, and am totally leaning towards the Arashiyama 6K as currently I have nothing to apply a slipperly polish so the extra $12 should pay good dividends. Maybe at least finally a final decision on one stone wooooo hoooo!!

 

It's confusing, but the grit numbers only tell you so much.  Stones have their own personalities, you have to work with them to figure them out.  Your best strategy (and mine too) is to ask people we trust who have used them.  Of course, that means figuring out the people too -- whom you should listen to and who will only waste your time.

 

This is a direct hit, bullseye etc. The problem I have been finding is actually being able to do this. Net searches bring up so much info that is not what one is really looking for, and so many opinions or reviews seem to be by those who have limited or no experience to compare to, and therefore is not really of much help. Maybe as I get more time into this (and later with more experience with whetstones in general) I will be able to "read" the opinions of others better, but for now it is sort of like flying blind with instruments in a foreign language. Lots of fun though :)

 

Phaedrus is an excellent source, btw.  

 

Yes have to agree on that 1000%, and has been an absolute big help without question, and his opinions really valued!!

 

At some point you're going to outgrow CT as a source of knife and sharpening advice -- in fact you may already have -- and you'll want to look in at one of the specialty boards like Fred's Cutlery Forum.     

 

Actually have been lurking in some other forums (including Freds) and getting lot's of additional information from previous posts etc. I had decided not to add confusion to this by posting on different forums as it has been enough to keep track here. Just an FYI but I chose to post here at CT because of the smaller almost family atmosphere feeling, and my thought that there would be less additional confusion from the typical additional off topic comments found on a higher hit count site.

 

I do agree that it may soon be time to put some of the questions I have to more of the masses since I am getting a better feel for just what I am getting into with Japanese knives, and stones in general. Still you guys have done a great job of educating, bringing me up to speed, and really calming any fears of screwing up.

 

It may not be obvious to those with time and experience in this, but this whole thing can be a bit overwhelming, and I can really feel for those with no free hand sharpening experience at all because I am sure it can be way too much for some, and could keep them from these superior knives. That of course is a shame because as I have found even the entry level introduction to this style product is a real pleasure to work with, and in my opinion well worth the time and effort (even if pretty much everyone in my family thinks I have lost my mind, and yes that includes those that received their first sharp knife for Christmass)

 

 

Hope this helps,

BDL

 

Sure does, and am waiting on your replies to all the new questions you have now raised ;)


 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #65 of 104

Even if the Suehiro Rika is more like a 3k it's probably still plenty for most purposes.  It's pretty well known that I tend to take most good knives all the way up to 10k but it's not really necessary...I just like the edge that gives me.  One of the guys I work with and occasionally sharpen for finally got on my last nerve; every time he asks me to sharpen his Shun I have to drop down to the coarsest stones I have.  The guy must steel the thing in his sleep or something 'cause the edge is always trashed.  Last night I was doing several knives so I figured I'd do his Shun, too.  Well I literally ground away with a 500 Beston until I could hardly move my arms!  And no joy- the Beston simply was no match for his mutilated Shun.  I ended up just going with my DMT XC, and even that took some work.  Anyway, I decided that until he learns to take better care of his stuff it's not worth wasting my Choceras on his knives, so I ended up finishing on my 2k Aotoshi followed by a strop on hard felt charged with 1/8 micron CBN.  The edge is actually very good and cuts extremely well.  Toothy!wink.gif

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #66 of 104
Thread Starter 

Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.

 



That's like asking if snowshoes would be a better purchase than a fly rod.  The answer is, who the hell knows?lol.gif  They're very different types of knives.  If you're gonna cut up a chicken the honesuke would work a lot better.  Good luck slicing up a 13 lb prime rib with it, though.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #68 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

Do you guys think a Sujihiki would be a better choice over the honesuki? I have made use of a slicing knife in the past so would expect to do the same with this.

 



That's like asking if snowshoes would be a better purchase than a fly rod.  The answer is, who the hell knows?lol.gif  They're very different types of knives.  If you're gonna cut up a chicken the honesuke would work a lot better.  Good luck slicing up a 13 lb prime rib with it, though.

 

OMG, now why didn't think of that before lookaround.gif

 

Well since I had some split chicken breasts that needed to become cutlets yesterday I found that except possibly for any heavy work the petty was just fine. So I am going to stop the nonsense or madness and just get this all finished soon. 

 

I suspect I will just decide between the honsuke and suki and move forward. A new thought I have is that I may want to wait until the budget will allow a higher end Suji as it seems this knife will deff get more use around here.

 

Thanks again to you all for your help, it has been very valuable even if a bit confusing at times!!

 

 


 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #69 of 104

OMG, now why didn't think of that before lookaround.gif

 

Well since I had some split chicken breasts that needed to become cutlets yesterday I found that except possibly for any heavy work the petty was just fine. So I am going to stop the nonsense or madness and just get this all finished soon. 

 

I suspect I will just decide between the honsuke and suki and move forward. A new thought I have is that I may want to wait until the budget will allow a higher end Suji as it seems this knife will deff get more use around here.

 

Thanks again to you all for your help, it has been very valuable even if a bit confusing at times!!

 

 


 


There's no need to get too hung up on what knife you need for a given job.  If you watch Jacques Pépin cook you on TV you might notice that he does virtually everything with a paring knife or chef's knife.  It's nice to have more patterns than that but the truth is I do 90% of my work with just a gyuto.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #70 of 104
Thread Starter 

 

 

Quote:
It's nice to have more patterns than that but the truth is I do 90% of my work with just a gyuto.


 

I have to think everyone has their favorites, and like yourself my two most used knives are the chefs and petty etc., but the specific use ones get a good work out as well like the bread knife, and even a not so great serrated utility etc.

 

The issue is what to do with this santoku that I have decided I will not really get any use of anymore.

 

It is a nice counter top conversation piece in its pretty box and all, but that has to be a poor use of a knife by anyone's standards. :)

 

Much as I do not intentionally plan to become a collector I do expect to end up with 4 or 5 Japanese knife styles and hopefully not too many duplicates.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #71 of 104

A santoku is still plenty useful.  I suspect you'll end up using it quite a bit.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #72 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post

A santoku is still plenty useful.  I suspect you'll end up using it quite a bit.


I guess that is possible, and the previous one was good for chopping and dicing etc.

 

Is it possible to become bipolar from entering the world of Japanese knives :)

 

Only because if I was to end up keeping the santoku it would equal going right back to where I started AKA full circle etc, and it could be a possible side effect of making the switch.

 

Also I have not returned anything yet as I have been really busy trying to make sense of all the rating systems on stones, wet paper, mesh, and micron size of the various abrasives to put this all into some kind of perspective.

 

Won't get too much into it here as I am feeling BDL may be correct in getting involved with one of the other more knife specific sites, but I have found there is actually more confusion, misunderstanding, and just plain misinformation on this in many different fields or industries from metal working, and auto refinishing to knife sharpening and pretty much everywhere in between.

 

Since I have had some experience in a couple of those areas (direct use, sales and more) it was more than interesting to see how people in different industries shared similar confusion, and even with some excellent cross reference chart information on the net it is still a big "unknown" in most cases due to there being so many similar appearing rating systems and numbers.

 

I know you guys believe just get it and go at it etc, but I am a bit more analytical than that, and am still attempting to find out if the 2000 silicone carbide paper I have used previous is actually 10.3, 8.5, or 1 micron so I can compare it to the rating system used on the Shapton GS so I can have some kind of baseline of understanding. That way I can compare my current results, and will be able to judge what level stones I would want based on where the current level falls in between the stone ratings.

 

Sounds simple enough, but since the Nikken wet paper I am using is not specifically marked with the rating system used, and their website does not confirm this either I am not sure if it is based on ansi/cami (normal US grades), fepa (p grades), JIS old or new (Japanese grade), and depending on which system is used the actual micron size of the abrasive can be quite different being from 1 to 10.3 micron.

 

Now before you all think I am wasting time etc just consider that if I am seeing the results of a 10.3 micron paper that the current 7 micron GS 2K stone would be an improvement in polish and may be a keeper, but if it is 8.5 micron then there really is no sense etc.

 

Plus when you throw in the fact that I have countless boxes of this stuff in 1000, 1200, 1500 and 2000 it now only shows a potential to hold off on a 1K stone as I could very well have that covered already (actually I believe that is correct), and really should invest in higher rated polishing stones instead.

 

I trust I will get to a point where I am confident in my decision, and hopefully that will be soon :)

 

 

 

 

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post #73 of 104

Using wet paper might work well.  Certainly if you already have it you may as well try it.  There's no rush to buy a stone, really.  More research is a good thing.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #74 of 104

My experience with sharpening on sand paper -- aka "scary sharp" -- is that it works well with carpentry tools but less well with long knives.  The papers load up quickly and need frequent rinsing, and it's not that easy to hold an angle on a wide sheet of paper.  Thinner strips -- 3M Contact for instance -- work better than full sheets.

 

The best thing about paper is that it allows to mess around with some extreme grits -- but that's not something you should do at least for now.

 

My advice is not to get too creative at first and just put together a decent kit based around regular bench stones or an Edge Pro.  Stones are making you crazy because you're overthinking and overcomplicating.  But anything will do that, as it's intrinsic to your nature and not to the stones'.

 

Get a Bester 1.2K and either a Suehiro Rika or Takenoko.  The Rika is very pleasant and easy; the Takenoko is both faster and finer.   When you can hold an angle well enough to get a good edge with either of those two, add a Beston 500.  The need will arrive at around the same time as the ability.  Flatten on drywall screen until you feel you can afford a DMT XXC.  Later, if you have a hankering for a really fine polish we can talk 8Ks and finer; but for now, not a worry.  Yes.  It's that simple.

 

BDL

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post #75 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

My experience with sharpening on sand paper -- aka "scary sharp" -- is that it works well with carpentry tools but less well with long knives.  The papers load up quickly and need frequent rinsing, and it's not that easy to hold an angle on a wide sheet of paper.  Thinner strips -- 3M Contact for instance -- work better than full sheets.

 

The best thing about paper is that it allows to mess around with some extreme grits -- but that's not something you should do at least for now.

 

My advice is not to get too creative at first and just put together a decent kit based around regular bench stones or an Edge Pro.  Stones are making you crazy because you're overthinking and overcomplicating.  But anything will do that, as it's intrinsic to your nature and not to the stones'.

 

Get a Bester 1.2K and either a Suehiro Rika or Takenoko.  The Rika is very pleasant and easy; the Takenoko is both faster and finer.   When you can hold an angle well enough to get a good edge with either of those two, add a Beston 500.  The need will arrive at around the same time as the ability.  Flatten on drywall screen until you feel you can afford a DMT XXC.  Later, if you have a hankering for a really fine polish we can talk 8Ks and finer; but for now, not a worry.  Yes.  It's that simple.

 

BDL


OMG, former chef, writer, product review master, knife expert/reviewer, and now even a spot on psycho analyst.  I am serious, good job reading me my friend!

 

Scary sharp was interesting, and did give me a little reinforcement that I can actually keep these tools to help fill in any gaps that may be in the progression in stones I can currently afford.

 

Loading up is true, but with only the Washita and India to compare to it is not so bad etc. Is this more an issue with the coarser papers? 

 

I use half sheets mostly as that is what I have the most of, and have to cut them to match the approx 2.5" x 9" hardwood blocks I glue them to. I do have one wider block (3"  I think) that oddly I actually find more productive, but I can get three sheets on the thinner ones so they get most use.

 

Since these are still "new toys" I am thinking I am being a little more cautious etc and that may be causing a bit of unevenness at the end of strokes when making passes on the paper, but @ 4x magnification the bevel appears to be flat and mostly straight. I still have an old issue with keeping things perfect down the entire edge of the blade especially at the curve towards the point, but I have read this is something many have issue with, and from pics I had found of others on the net (no idea how they get such good pics all I get is odd blurrs lol) I may be being too critical, but like you already figured out that is just me :)

 

Maybe figuring out how to get a good pic of the current edge would be a good idea as it would allow others to offer opinion on the results. This could allow to understand how the current equipment would compare to what else is out there without having the expense of trial and error.

 

Since your not the first to hit me with basically keeping it simple I think the point it starting to sink in. I hope this is as helpful as common sense makes it appear.

 

I am understanding your recommendations on stones (these seem to fit with Phaedrus choices as well!) and am going to try to just pick a deadline to make a final decision so that I stop continuing to add more to this at every turn, but it just seems that with every new bit of information comes a host of new issues. OK I am going to try to do it by the end of the day!!!!

 

I have also heeded your advice and joined Freds, posted a new thread there, and am sharing my OCD on this with everyone there now.  Maybe with a little luck I will find what I am looking for around the same time the new stone(s) arrive and will be able to make sense of it all.

 

Going to go and crunch some numbers and get the stones ordered!

 

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post #76 of 104
Thread Starter 

Want to update you all since I have finally made some headway with this all.

 

I found out the true rating system used on the paper I have been using which is great because I now have a baseline of what the results seen so far, and also am able to compare to the stone ratings as well.

 

It ends up that Nikken like many other quality Japanese manufacturers uses the JIS abrasive rating std. Though this puts my 2000 paper at a really close level to the 2K GS (and it is going back) which stinks it also is good because it does show me what a grit of this micron size can produce on an edge, and also that I have much of the mid range covered and initially only need to concentrate on the coarse and finer grades of stones.

 

I had joked at another site that all of this (everyone's help, hours searching the net and reading reviews etc) has allowed me to get right back to the start of needing my first wetstone :) 

 

Much as that is truly humorous (yea I laughed when writing it) I am at least now armed with enough comparable information to make a more informed but more importantly a comfortable decision on buying my first wetstone.

 

I am seriously leaning towards the finer end of the spectrum. I know not everyone believes this is a great place to start using a waterstone, and recommend a 800-1.2K stone for beginners, but I am gaining more confidence in my skill while also realizing that if I am getting a good result with the paper without gouging it to death (aka holding an angle at least fairly well, no?) then I should expect similar or even better experience with a fine stone.

 

Does this make sense to you guys?

 

I have also found myself looking at the Kitayama 8K as an alternate to the other two on my new short list (Arashiyama 6K and Suhiro Rika 5K), but could not find much as far as reviews, but it does look like a value priced stone similar to the 6K, but 2K finer.

 

I have boxed up the 2K for return so I dont change my mind on it again, and look forward to your final thoughts as to help me make a final choice from the short list.

 

Thanks again to all!!!!!!!!!

 

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post #77 of 104
Thread Starter 

Figure I owe you guys an update even though this sounds a bit funny, and may make me appear a bit off etc. Plus that is seeming to be tone of this thread anyhow.

 

I am not sure if it is due to a problem in translation of language or just absolute confusion between manufacturer, representative, and distributor but I have received completely opposite and contradictory information on the standards association used in determining the actual grit particle size used in the wet paper I have been using.

 

Since I was not able to get both parties to confirm their information was correct (one of them has to be lol)  I just figured to give up, and decided to just open up the 2K GS, get busy grinding some steel, and make my own decision on just where everything falls into place with regards to grit and how it polishes the edge.

 

Glad I did.

 

It worked out great, and seems to produce a grind somewhere between 1500 to 2000 grit paper (closer to the 1500 for sure) and as a serious plus was a lot easier to work with and removed material easier and faster.

 

I know the price levels are far apart (free v/s $56) but if the stone lasts long enough it should be a good long term purchase and value.

 

Will see where things progress from here, and I am planning on getting either the 6K or 8K stone soon, and before any coarser stones as the lower grit papers I have will cover the coarse levels.

 

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post #78 of 104

Keep on keeping up with the updates.  Watching someone else climb the learning curve is fun, and the evolution in your thinking is impressive.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 1/10/11 at 8:31am
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post #79 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Keep on keeping up with the updates.  Watching someone else climb the learning curve is fun, and the evolution in your thinking is impressive.

 

BDL


Good to see someone is reading this.

 

The experience has been kind of cool I guess even though frustrating at times due to all the unknowns and sometimes just lack of information and comparable experiences to make sense of all the nuances of such different knives than most are used to.

 

One part of the evolution I never expected was to actually think knives so much more expensive would seem a bargain compared to my old Henckels Pro-S(actual purchase price not list BS).

 

Just consider that before this I was having fits from not being able to get a decent edge that would last past a dinner prep, and now I am noticing the tiniest chip or imperfection on the edge. Thought I was losing it at first, but now that the edge doesn't fold over so easily making it nearly useless you do notice the little things more.

 

I am most likely going to order the Arashiyama 6K over the next couple days, and can not wait to see how this one performs, but am also intending to have a few glass plates made up for attaching the sand paper to as I think it will provide a much flatter surface than the hardwood, and will see how that works as well.

 

One thing I am starting to get really curious about is just how fast the coarser waterstones are because this 2K seems to be really fast and easy to work with, and I can not imagine needing more than a few passes on say a 700 stone to remove enough material to thin or reprofile an edge.

 

One last question for now, and that is if the process of using screen for flattening works easier with the non glass stones?

 

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post #80 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

 

Quote:
You'll want to use the Pro-S to hoe weeds in your garden.smoking.gif

Wow if this pans out like that I will be smiling more than that emoticon (which is also one of my favorites)

 


More truth than poetry, as a buddy of mine used to think.  Everything you thought you knew about knives will be re-evaluated once you use a good J-knife.


Brought this back up because it ended up being so true it should be part of some J Knife manufacturers advertising.

 

Dont have much of a lawn so I sold off all of my Henckels, and don't miss miss them ;)

 

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post #81 of 104
Thread Starter 

The fedex truck dropped off a small package today, and I quickly put the Arashiyama 6K to work.

 

It did not seem as soft as I was expecting from so many reviews online, but was not nearly as hard as the glass stone either. It did seem to feel a little rougher than I had expected, was not as fast as I anticipated either, but the finish it produced was great and with a light hand was even finer. I was not able to get a whole lot of mud to work with and the little bit of slurry it did produce was mostly filled with steel so I am not 100% sure if I am missing something here, or if it really needs to soak more (I thought it was damn near splash and go, but seems to like much more water than the GS).

 

Tried going over it a second time with the sheetrock screen I was using to flatten and leave more of the slurry on the stone and that seemed to help, but I am not sure if this stone really needs to be worked to have some mud before sharpening or not.

 

Overall I am pretty darn happy with it, and am not sure if going any higher would be less for function and more for form or novelty. I still may look to try a 10K+ in the future just to see how it performs, and what difference it makes to using the knife etc.

 

For now this stone seems to be great for my needs, and really does produce a seriously sharp and polished edge. I still have to go back to a lower coarser stone on the Tojiro's to clean up a couple spots where the edge was not totally perfect as this stone would tire me out attempting to remove enough material to make a real change etc, and I found out real quick that when using a whetstone in the finer grits your really just polishing and any imperfections from previous level stones is magnified once you get a nice polish on the edge.

 

Ended up being a nice progression from the 2K GS and real pleasure to work with so I guess all my concerns and worries were not warranted and just due to not having any experience with the products. Both these stones are a lot nicer to work with than the oil stones I have used previously, and I do not have the issues of the sand paper where without being able to keep them totally flat (mostly due to not being able to spread the adhesive evenly) it was hard to hold or keep the edge to the paper just right some times.

 

Much as this stone worked great with the Fujiwara FKM it seems to be VG-10's best friend as the Tojiro DP's were really nice to work on this stone. Smooth as butter but also with a good feel and more feedback than anything else I own.

 

What was interesting was that initially I was really concerned with gouging the stone since so many had warned about this due to it not being as hard as any of the oil or glass stones I have used in the past etc, but unless your not paying attention this should not be a concern as the stone has a good amount of "give" while still being strong, and if you work with it and don't force it you can get a good "cut" into this stone where your pushing the water out of it even on the push stroke.

 

Overall very impressed!

 

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post #82 of 104

Been following along, had nothing to say before, but now I have a few things.

 

I've been almost exactly where you are now, back when I was in Kyoto 2 years ago. You already knew more about sharpening than I did, and my wife prevented me from going quite as nuts with different stones, but it's a similar phenomenon.

 

First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)

 

Second point: slow down. I know what you mean about suddenly being weirdly freaked out by small imperfections, where you used to be okay with mediocrity, but don't get ahead of yourself on things like polish. You're much better off having your gyuto with a perfect 2k edge than messing with it to produce a second-rate 6k polish.

 

Third point: using a petty. Put a somewhat tough edge on this and it will do yeoman service on poultry, including shearing bones. Those things are tough. You will probably also want to have some kind of chef de chef or something like that around, do to really brutal work like splitting lobsters and chopping off drumstick nubs, but I have found that the petty is the go-to knife for almost anything involving bones. The other option, which I use sometimes, is a smallish deba, but that's mostly because I have a very cheap one that I don't mind chipping sometimes.

 

Honest truth: these days I do everything differently anyway. I mostly rely on the petty plus the classic Japanese trio of yanagiba, usuba, and deba. For everyday touchups, I rely on a very hard natural asagi stone that won't dish and could be rated somewhere in the range of 12k-15k. But when I do a sharpening session, really going at it, I use Chocera 400 (if necessary), 800, 2000, then Arashiyama 6000, and SuperStone 10,000. I don't then use the asagi -- the technique is sufficiently different that it's irritating to switch, I find, and a 10k edge on the SuperStone will in time "haze" beautifully with the asagi.

 

Enjoy your toys!

post #83 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer View Post

Been following along, had nothing to say before, but now I have a few things.

 

Cool to hear as I was thinking more than once I was talking to myself LMAO

 

I've been almost exactly where you are now, back when I was in Kyoto 2 years ago. You already knew more about sharpening than I did, and my wife prevented me from going quite as nuts with different stones, but it's a similar phenomenon.

 

Must have been an interesting place to live. I think the wife is now convinced I am nuts as she just learned what these two stones set me back, and being unemployed at the moment did not help any. So for now at least it is looking like I will have to compliment the 2K and 6K with what I have in available in the silicon carbide sand paper.

 

First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)

 

So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?

 

I cant wait to the next time I need to touch them up as I was looking forward to seeing how working the mud was.

 

Second point: slow down. I know what you mean about suddenly being weirdly freaked out by small imperfections, where you used to be okay with mediocrity, but don't get ahead of yourself on things like polish. You're much better off having your gyuto with a perfect 2k edge than messing with it to produce a second-rate 6k polish.

 

Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.

 

Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do :)  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.

 

 

Third point: using a petty. Put a somewhat tough edge on this and it will do yeoman service on poultry, including shearing bones. Those things are tough. You will probably also want to have some kind of chef de chef or something like that around, do to really brutal work like splitting lobsters and chopping off drumstick nubs, but I have found that the petty is the go-to knife for almost anything involving bones. The other option, which I use sometimes, is a smallish deba, but that's mostly because I have a very cheap one that I don't mind chipping sometimes.

 

Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely

angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.

 

I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.

 

 

Honest truth: these days I do everything differently anyway. I mostly rely on the petty plus the classic Japanese trio of yanagiba, usuba, and deba. For everyday touchups, I rely on a very hard natural asagi stone that won't dish and could be rated somewhere in the range of 12k-15k. But when I do a sharpening session, really going at it, I use Chocera 400 (if necessary), 800, 2000, then Arashiyama 6000, and SuperStone 10,000. I don't then use the asagi -- the technique is sufficiently different that it's irritating to switch, I find, and a 10k edge on the SuperStone will in time "haze" beautifully with the asagi.

 

I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .

 

For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.

 

What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere :D

 

Enjoy your toys!

 

Doing my best to, and  really doing just that so far.

 

PS thanks for your input!


 

 

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post #84 of 104
Thread Starter 

After thinking about all of what has been posted so far, and my initial experience with the Tojiro and Fujiwara I am starting to wonder just how different the other more expensive knives that were recommended earlier in the thread would compare to what I have already.

 

I mean like just how different would one expect a Misono, Mac, or Massamoto etc to be?

 

Both BDL and Phaedrus descriptions of the ones I have now seem to have been spot on (glad I tried the Fujiwara by the way as it was good to have something different from the Tojiro to compare with) and I can understand just how there is room for improvement on the Tojiro in the handle and even profile dept's but I can not see how the extra expense of the upgrades could be more bang for the buck overall etc.

 

I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering.

 

Maybe I still have a lot to learn, or maybe I am getting to the point where the values are going to be more based on form and the cool factor than actual performance and value.

 

Either way I am finding the need to compare one of the other higher end products as I believe hands on may be the only way to truly understand. And we have not even discussed carbons yet, OMG where does it end :D

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #85 of 104

LennyD; "...I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering..."

 

Hi Lenny, wellcome to the Fujiwara fanclub! Allow me to make this one and only contribution to your thread.

 

You really, really should read the following recent thread on knifeforums.com;

"Unconditional Fujiwara Love" - thread started on 01-07-11. It's about both the FKM's and FKH's... Here's the link;

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/891127/

 

I have both FKM's and Misono Moly. Both are excellent knives for their price. Misono is just a little heavier and even a little better finished than the Fujiwara's.

Still, I think VG10 is always a good investment, wether it's HattoriHD or FK, Gekko (best price/performance ever IMO!!!), Tamagahane (the brand) from Brieto, and my recent stunningly beautiful Saiun Kanetsugu 90mm parer from JCK. VG10 takes a lot more efford to sharpen rightly, you need to do at least 2 or 3 sharpeningsessions before they perform at their best, any VG10 knife. But, the result is always stunning... 

 

My next buy will be the 210mm Saiun suji. Perfect utility knife!

post #86 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post

LennyD; "...I guess a similar profile to the Fujiwara FKM with an improved steel could show an improvement, but everything I have seen that would make it to the short list is considerably more expensive. I also think about the ones like the moly Misono and wonder if it would even be worth considering..."

 

Hi Lenny, wellcome to the Fujiwara fanclub! Allow me to make this one and only contribution to your thread.

 

You really, really should read the following recent thread on knifeforums.com;

"Unconditional Fujiwara Love" - thread started on 01-07-11. It's about both the FKM's and FKH's... Here's the link;

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/891127/

 

I have both FKM's and Misono Moly. Both are excellent knives for their price. Misono is just a little heavier and even a little better finished than the Fujiwara's.

Still, I think VG10 is always a good investment, wether it's HattoriHD or FK, Gekko (best price/performance ever IMO!!!), Tamagahane (the brand) from Brieto, and my recent stunningly beautiful Saiun Kanetsugu 90mm parer from JCK. VG10 takes a lot more efford to sharpen rightly, you need to do at least 2 or 3 sharpeningsessions before they perform at their best, any VG10 knife. But, the result is always stunning... 

 

My next buy will be the 210mm Saiun suji. Perfect utility knife!


Before I reply to you I wanted to make a comment on how I am having trouble posting replies on my mobile phone. For some reason the site let me write up the whole thing (a real pita on that stupid little qwerty keyboard btw) but when I try to submit it the process just will not work and keeps reloading the same thing over and over etc. I dont have the problem at other sites so I figure it has something to do with whatever software the site is using and the symbian software in my phone, but I even tried opera mobile and that usually works with everything, but even that did not work. Oh well was just ten minutes so no biggie, but there is someone here to forward the issue to that would be great.

 

Now back to my newest obsession lol

 

I am happy to join the Fujiwara Fan Club as I seriously like this knife, and the price only makes the whole experience that much sweeter!!

 

But why only one post here? Hope it wasnt something I said :)

 

Thanks for posting the link because even though I had seen that thread before it was dead at the time and I did not want to revive an old thread as my first post there. Seems it is alive again so I will chime in soon as I believe this is an excellent intro knife for J knives and I just cant really find any flaws in it. Well I guess if there was a way to keep the slices of potatoes from flying all over the board (and sometimes further lol) that could be an improvement, but I dont think I can fault the knife for that as much as praise it for it's agility that has helped my speed.

 

Also I saw that the thread there went to the carbon side (could that be akin to the dark side lol) and much as I keep hearing so many good things about carbon, and am one of those who's cleaning or maintenance habits are up to the product I really do not find myself drawn to the whole patina and oxidizing steel scenario. I have read all about the great edges people get from their carbon kitchen knives, and I even have a couple of carbon hunting type knives so I am aware of the edge that they can take and the strength etc, but somehow I am not sure it is my choice for food prep.

 

I had looked into that Saiun line and that looks to be one very nice knife. It does get into the price range of some other very nice ones as well, but will deff keep it in mind for when I start looking at adding to the family :)

 

I have found myself attracted to the Hattori products and though I am not sure I am ready to decide between the HD or FH yet I know I did like the handles and blade design on the FH even before I had any real idea what I was looking for in a J knife (not sure I really know now for that matter lol, but it is seeming a bit easier than previously) but the price is a bit steep on both.

 

Now the Gekko line is also very pleasing to the eye, utilizes VG-10, looks like a well made product, and their mahogany handles look like they would just fit right into the hand as well, and as a plus the price point is looking great.

 

The Tamahagan also looks to be good product, but I think I may keep things a bit more simple by sticking with VG-10 at least for the next purchase, and then maybe expand a bit in the future (the carbo next types look very interesting dont they)

 

Your point on the VG-10 getting better with more use and sharpening is well taken, and I had not thought of that or noticed it until you mentioned it, but even only being sharpened a couple times I think this is what I am finding as well. Or it could be that I am improving, but thats an entirely different story lol.

 

I still am having trouble believing it can get better than I have found already, but have to admit I am looking forward to finding out. Since I have found I am missing not having a slicer and could also use a longer petty at times I am guessing these will most likely be my next two purchases.

 

Can not wait to start driving everyone nuts again comparing the pro's and con's of my long list to figure out which one to decide on. Woooo Hooooo :)

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #87 of 104

Hey, Lenny,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)

 

So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?

 

I don't like using anything coarse to raise mud -- it leaves scratches where I don't want them. What you're doing, technically, is using the GS as a nagura: it both slightly dresses the stone (trivial flattening) and raises mud. A GS is a perfectly good choice for this; lots of people use diamond plates, but they're pricey and you don't own one, so use the GS, which won't need flattening of its own.

 


Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.

 

Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do :)  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.

 

... [petty, honesuki, garasuke, etc.]


Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.

....

I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.

....

I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .

 

For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.

 

What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere :D

Okay, some more points here.

 

1. Polish and edge

Go ahead and play with your 6k all you like. That's not quite what I meant. It is true that you can easily screw up a good 2k edge with a mediocre job on the polishing stone, but if that happens, you just go back to the 2k and do it over. No biggie, and screwing up sometimes does wonders for overconfidence.

 

Part of what I mean is that you don't entirely grasp -- based on what you write -- the difference that polish makes. Until you have that clear, both conceptually and in your knives, you don't know what to polish and how much. And you make several remarks here that suggest this is a genuine question for you.

 

All in all, the only real rule is not to waste effort (and stone). There is not the slightest point in polishing a Sabatier au carbone to a 10k edge, because, lovely knives though they are, the steel simply won't take that kind of polish. In a very short time, all that work will be for naught. So you don't do it.

 

Now these moderately fancy Japanese knives you've got will all take good polish. 6k certainly. So why not always do it?

 

Some people feel that there are particular knives and cutting tasks that want a little toothiness. 2k is not "toothy" by any sane person's standards -- that's WAY more polished than any traditional Western kitchen knife -- but it's a relative measure.

 

I cannot speak from great personal experience, but I have a fair bit of knowledge here. In my estimation, you never need toothiness -- but there are knives that are used in such a way that you gain absolutely nothing from polish. The most glaring examples would be knives that carve and shear bone, such as the deba, honesuke, garasuke, and so forth. The contact with bone undoes your polishing work quickly, so why bother with it? You don't really gain anything from it.

 

Another significant point is that a 6k edge isn't sharper than a 2k edge, technically speaking. Sharpness is a measure of how cleanly two planes meet, and that's all. However, polishing can often clean up (or cover up) a certain amount of "slop." So if you've done a decent but not brilliant job on your 2k, and you do the same on your 6k, yes, the edge probably will be a hair sharper -- but really it could better be said that it is less problematic. From the practical standpoint, that's 6 of 1, half-a-dozen of the other, but there you go.

 

So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.

 

Conclusion: polish as high as you feel like polishing, but bear in mind that there is going to be a good deal of wasted effort involved, and that the longer you work an edge -- especially when it involves switching stones -- the greater the odds of screwing up and having to back up.

 

2. Buying More Knives

First of all, your wife will kill you. But that said....

 

You do what you want to do, and bear in mind that lots of folks I know get into having all kinds of different knives. I am increasingly of the opinion, however, that this is not a great idea. You should have a small set of excellent knives that you love and care for and learn to use very, very well. When you are faced with a cutting task, I think you should have no question in your mind about what's the right knife for the job. I don't think that special chicken-breaking knives make the slightest sense, for example, unless you are butchering poultry for a living.

 

Consider this. If you cut up a whole chicken, what bone do you actually need to cut through? Joints, check, but you shouldn't be shearing bone with the joints. Drumstick nubs in the French system, check. Ribcage and sternum in the American system, check, or the back of the shoulder joint in the French, check. The backbone, crosswise, for making pieces for soup stock, check. So at most with one chicken, you're looking at shearing about 6 or 7 times. You're going to buy a special knife for this? You gotta be crazy.

 

Me, I do the shearing with the back third of a mid-sized deba, which is heavy, tough, and also great for butchering fish, which is what it's made for. When you butcher fish, the vast majority of the work is done with the tip third of the knife, and the back third you back-bevel so it can be used for mincing and for heavy shearing like this. Every other cut I make with a petty, which I find small and deft enough to do the work, but is certainly tough as well. My one regret is that I don't have a really big thing, like a 12" chef de chef (or yo-deba), for shearing lobsters and stuff, but how often, honestly, do I shear a lobster? And there are ways and means of using a deba to do this admirably.

 

The point is, I'm basically doing everything with four knives. The result is that I get better and better at knowing what they like, how they work, and how to make them work for me. I advise you, rather than buying a bunch more knives, to learn the ones you have cold. For example, why did you not slice the cutlets with the gyuto?

 

Think about it this way. The gyuto should do at least 75% of the cutting work in your kitchen, if it's being used thoroughly. It likes to cut everything. It slices, it dices, it chops, it pares! When faced with any cutting task, you should first consider doing it with the gyuto. If that's not the right choice, why not? And then you reach for a specialty knife to pick up on this weak spot in the gyuto's armory. If you use the classical Japanese system, there is no knife like this, which is one of those really irritating things. And this is one reason the gyuto has made such deep inroads into even rather traditional professional Japanese kitchens.

 

3. Carbon

You mentioned this in another post.

 

I love carbon, and all my J-knives are carbon. The deal is that, yes, it sharpens more easily. It needs the same care as other knives, but it needs it right now -- you can't wait around. But that's just a matter of habits.

 

Then there's the question of patina and looks. If you like your blades shiny, go stainless -- carbon doesn't do that very well. The one exception is if you are using single-beveled Japanese knives, because then you can sharpen them every single day on a fine polishing stone, and yes, they will be shiny. I don't advise it, honestly, and I say that as someone who more or less does it.

 

4. Upgrades

Skip it. Wait and save your pennies. When you are honestly getting tired of what you've got, and probably have ground the gyuto until it's not the right shape any more because you've done it so often, you'll be ready to drop some serious change on something really fancy. I like Masamoto, myself, but lord knows they're expensive. But your wife may be more understanding if you wait and work at the knives you've got for a year or so. Just sayin'.

post #88 of 104
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisLehrer View Post

Hey, Lenny,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
First: the Arashiyama. Soak the heck out of it. Really. Just dump it in water for a couple of hours. Then use that GS to raise a little mud. In my experience, these stones start out with a slightly tough surface and it takes some getting through the first few times. After that, just the long soak will do it. When you sharpen this way on it, you'll find that it's a completely different stone: mud mud mud! (And lots of fun too.)

 

So I should really let it soak for a while then, and also use the 2K GS to get it "warmed up"? I was using either the screen that I used to flatten or 1000 wet paper to try and prep it for using. Do you think either one is better or just stick to the 2K?

 

I don't like using anything coarse to raise mud -- it leaves scratches where I don't want them. What you're doing, technically, is using the GS as a nagura: it both slightly dresses the stone (trivial flattening) and raises mud. A GS is a perfectly good choice for this; lots of people use diamond plates, but they're pricey and you don't own one, so use the GS, which won't need flattening of its own.

 

Since I had a chance to work on the 6K again tonight this is all still very fresh in my mind. Since I have used the stone a couple times now I am seeing changes in it, but I also am still not getting mud to the amount you discuss but there was more. I guess of more importance to your thoughts on using the GS I am going to go ahead and do this next time I use it because I was able to notice that there were very tiny low spots all over the stone from the grit of what I used to flatten and raise the mud etc. If I looked closely I could see very tiny lines in the stone where there was no steel being removed from the edge. At this point I can not say if the stone not being really broken in or the coarseness of the grit I was using to flatten is to blame but I am getting more small scratches or roughness in the edge than I expected at 6K.

Still there was an obvious improvement to the sharpness, and now I can not feel any rough spots or the edge catching on paper cuts etc.

 


Honestly I am pretty damn freaked out by this whole experience. I mean everything from friends and family looking at me like I am totally nuts to the performance of the knives and stones that I really have not truly figured out yet. I agree with your take on the perfect 2K edge etc, but I think I may have lucked out with my first attempt at the 6K as well since the edge still seems mostly flat and straight, and there was a noticeable change in the way it cut with the added polish.

 

Still I hear you on slowing down, and I have been making a real effort not to be over doing things as I know it is way toooooo easy to do :)  Now where I am starting to think I may need to do some experimenting to find what works best for me is being able to know just which knives perform better with more or less polish. The gyuto is a bit confusing because it does get used to both slice and chop, and if I am understanding properly a bit less polish would be more toothy and better for slicing, and a bit more could benefit the chopping. Also I keep thinking that with more practice comes less second rate polishing problems lol.

 

... [petty, honesuki, garasuke, etc.]

 

 

Interesting you mention this as I have been considering either adding a Honesuki to my collection in the future, or another different brand of longer petty (I do want to compare additional products and designs, and was thinking a Hattori HD petty would be cool) so that I could set up one for a sharper more acutely angled edge for slicing (like the chicken cutlets I did recently which a slightly longer petty would have been helpful) and the other to have a somewhat stronger slightly less aggressive edge. Then again maybe the honesuki would be a better choice, hmmmm.

....

I did not originally plan on a deba etc, but I do have my Mundial elegance series that includes a 8" chefs, and a smaller clever made in Japan of unknown mfg and quality that I have used on occasion that could serve for the heaver chopping or splitting work. The chef is kind of soft so chipping is not a concern, and so far I have the cleaver set up a bit rounded or convex and have not noticed any problems there either. Neither is what I would consider seriously sharp, but they have gotten the job done in the past.

....

I expect that over time I also will figure out which progressions work best for the different steels and knives etc, but do also expect this will take a while. One thing I sort of figured out already is that my knives of softer steels really do not need to or benefit from higher polishes and seem to do better with a more coarse finish (more toothy right?) Once I get a better feel for the j knives and whetstones and am better situated in this respect I am anticipating picking up a new Washita and maybe even an Ark or two to use on my hunting and pocket folders that are of softer steels, but that is going to have to wait until my disposable income improves again, and until that point I plan to use the mid to high grit wet paper on them (my washita is too dished for anything but the shortest folders) .

 

For now the most I would expect to consider is around 10K ish and even that I think is overkill for my needs and more of an experiment or just good ole fashion need to understand better how an even higher polished edge performs and where it is best suited. So yea a big part of it is curiosity, and that can get one into trouble, but also can explain a whole lot too.

 

What is looking as a potential downfall or downside to all of this is that once I am working again and have the extra $$ to feed the addiction more I wont have the free time to be messing around like I would like to. Always a catch 22 hiding in there somewhere :D

Okay, some more points here.

 

1. Polish and edge

Go ahead and play with your 6k all you like. That's not quite what I meant. It is true that you can easily screw up a good 2k edge with a mediocre job on the polishing stone, but if that happens, you just go back to the 2k and do it over. No biggie, and screwing up sometimes does wonders for overconfidence.

 

Part of what I mean is that you don't entirely grasp -- based on what you write -- the difference that polish makes. Until you have that clear, both conceptually and in your knives, you don't know what to polish and how much. And you make several remarks here that suggest this is a genuine question for you.

 

Absolutely, and you made a good read here. Still not sure I am still 100% but it is making more sense.

 

All in all, the only real rule is not to waste effort (and stone). There is not the slightest point in polishing a Sabatier au carbone to a 10k edge, because, lovely knives though they are, the steel simply won't take that kind of polish. In a very short time, all that work will be for naught. So you don't do it.

 

Now these moderately fancy Japanese knives you've got will all take good polish. 6k certainly. So why not always do it?

 

Some people feel that there are particular knives and cutting tasks that want a little toothiness. 2k is not "toothy" by any sane person's standards -- that's WAY more polished than any traditional Western kitchen knife -- but it's a relative measure.

 

I cannot speak from great personal experience, but I have a fair bit of knowledge here. In my estimation, you never need toothiness -- but there are knives that are used in such a way that you gain absolutely nothing from polish. The most glaring examples would be knives that carve and shear bone, such as the deba, honesuke, garasuke, and so forth. The contact with bone undoes your polishing work quickly, so why bother with it? You don't really gain anything from it.

 

This I think I am getting, and not that I have not tried to sharpen different softer steels beyond their ability or what made sense etc, but that was not only how I started to learn this before I even knew I was learning it, but also how I got into this all in the first place.  An example is the Mundials that I have kept for now that includes a 8" chefs that I did reprofile to a much less acute angle and just did a light touch up on 1000 paper after using the oil stones. I also have an unknown older Japanese clever that has little polish as well as these are the only knives I currently have with any heft for the few times I will face tasks that need them. This was more about angle initially than actually being based on polish, and it just worked out that way etc.

 

Another significant point is that a 6k edge isn't sharper than a 2k edge, technically speaking. Sharpness is a measure of how cleanly two planes meet, and that's all. However, polishing can often clean up (or cover up) a certain amount of "slop." So if you've done a decent but not brilliant job on your 2k, and you do the same on your 6k, yes, the edge probably will be a hair sharper -- but really it could better be said that it is less problematic. From the practical standpoint, that's 6 of 1, half-a-dozen of the other, but there you go.

 

So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.

 

Is there any advantage on soft items like a tomato from additional polish?

 

Conclusion: polish as high as you feel like polishing, but bear in mind that there is going to be a good deal of wasted effort involved, and that the longer you work an edge -- especially when it involves switching stones -- the greater the odds of screwing up and having to back up.

 

Believe me I understand that point lol. I have screwed up many an edge in the past while I thought I was improving it. I believe it was a part of the learning curve (basically taught myself how to sharpen on oil stones when I was a teenager, and never really got any advice that did not eventually end up being wrong) but it also makes things become cemented into your memory.I can remember when I was first tackeling burrs and how it drove me a bit nuts until by chance I found that a stropping like motion on the stone would help them go away. but still screwing up and having to go back is a great way to improve as the penalty and reward are very obvious and the short cuts limited if any. I still dont mind when this happens as I look at it as experience and another hurdle to overcome etc plus it helps to keep one humble :)

 

 

2. Buying More Knives

First of all, your wife will kill you. But that said....

 

Poor thing, I believe she is thinking I have lost my mind already with all this "knife stuff".  One good or positive thing though is that this is about the least expensive "hobby" I may have ever had. So maybe after the employment issue improves that will not be as much an issue. (well hopefully lol)

 

You do what you want to do, and bear in mind that lots of folks I know get into having all kinds of different knives. I am increasingly of the opinion, however, that this is not a great idea. You should have a small set of excellent knives that you love and care for and learn to use very, very well. When you are faced with a cutting task, I think you should have no question in your mind about what's the right knife for the job. I don't think that special chicken-breaking knives make the slightest sense, for example, unless you are butchering poultry for a living.

 

Consider this. If you cut up a whole chicken, what bone do you actually need to cut through? Joints, check, but you shouldn't be shearing bone with the joints. Drumstick nubs in the French system, check. Ribcage and sternum in the American system, check, or the back of the shoulder joint in the French, check. The backbone, crosswise, for making pieces for soup stock, check. So at most with one chicken, you're looking at shearing about 6 or 7 times. You're going to buy a special knife for this? You gotta be crazy.

 

Me, I do the shearing with the back third of a mid-sized deba, which is heavy, tough, and also great for butchering fish, which is what it's made for. When you butcher fish, the vast majority of the work is done with the tip third of the knife, and the back third you back-bevel so it can be used for mincing and for heavy shearing like this. Every other cut I make with a petty, which I find small and deft enough to do the work, but is certainly tough as well. My one regret is that I don't have a really big thing, like a 12" chef de chef (or yo-deba), for shearing lobsters and stuff, but how often, honestly, do I shear a lobster? And there are ways and means of using a deba to do this admirably.

 

Have to agree on not needing every type knife made, and I honestly do not want to become a collector of high priced limited production knives etc. Also I really do not split enough chickens (or some others like lobster etc) to need a special specific duty knife, and unless things get real ugly job wise and I somehow ended up making a career change and  working in a commercial kitchen again (unlikely) I do not expect to need more than 4 or 5 knives anyhow. Only real reason I even say five is because I anticipate I will want to experiment with something new and a bit different in the future. Maybe a Wa handled single bevel type, but again that is the future and I would prefer to get something that I would use fairly often etc.

 

The point is, I'm basically doing everything with four knives. The result is that I get better and better at knowing what they like, how they work, and how to make them work for me. I advise you, rather than buying a bunch more knives, to learn the ones you have cold. For example, why did you not slice the cutlets with the gyuto?

 

Glad you ask as the gyuto was my first pick out of the block, but the wife picked the chicken up some  place new and it was not the best selection and they were sort of small and the knife just was not working out like I planned. It could have been partly due to sharpness or my bevels as it was sticking slightly, but I did not really think it out much beyond the fact that the smaller knife seemed to work better on the smaller breasts (yes these were pretty crappy and had to trim them to death)Still the gyuto should have been fine so will see when I pick up some decent chickens later this week.

 

While on this I have noticed while going thru potatoes yesterday (before resharpening the gyuto)that sometimes there is a real issue with sticking. It did not always do it, and not near what my old Henckels was like but it still did. Could this have anything to do with my edge or bevel?

 

Think about it this way. The gyuto should do at least 75% of the cutting work in your kitchen, if it's being used thoroughly. It likes to cut everything. It slices, it dices, it chops, it pares! When faced with any cutting task, you should first consider doing it with the gyuto. If that's not the right choice, why not? And then you reach for a specialty knife to pick up on this weak spot in the gyuto's armory. If you use the classical Japanese system, there is no knife like this, which is one of those really irritating things. And this is one reason the gyuto has made such deep inroads into even rather traditional professional Japanese kitchens.

 

Even though I had made good use of my previous henckels santoku due to it being the sharpest in the drawer then etc I had thought my inital decision on the Tojiro Santoku may not have been a good one based on what your saying (and I agree) but I am finding it is great for chopping and the edge being sharper than the previous and maybe even the Fujiwara (it is really close) combined with the toughness of the VG10 it just seems well suited for chopping. Still I am finding the Fujiwara is great for chopping as well, and it is lighter and a bit more comfortable so it is picking up on some of this work.

 

I mean so far in the short time I have these knives it has seen most of the usual foods and has sliced all of them effortlessly. So who knows it could be me :)

 

3. Carbon

You mentioned this in another post.

 

I love carbon, and all my J-knives are carbon. The deal is that, yes, it sharpens more easily. It needs the same care as other knives, but it needs it right now -- you can't wait around. But that's just a matter of habits.

 

Then there's the question of patina and looks. If you like your blades shiny, go stainless -- carbon doesn't do that very well. The one exception is if you are using single-beveled Japanese knives, because then you can sharpen them every single day on a fine polishing stone, and yes, they will be shiny. I don't advise it, honestly, and I say that as someone who more or less does it.

 

4. Upgrades

Skip it. Wait and save your pennies. When you are honestly getting tired of what you've got, and probably have ground the gyuto until it's not the right shape any more because you've done it so often, you'll be ready to drop some serious change on something really fancy. I like Masamoto, myself, but lord knows they're expensive. But your wife may be more understanding if you wait and work at the knives you've got for a year or so. Just sayin'.

 

This all makes good sense as well. I mean what good is it to have 7 gyutos etc. My only potential issue is bang for the buck and why to get rid of a perfectly fine tool that you enjoy using. During this whole intro to J knives I have looked over so many different brands and types of knives it is overwhelming, but still have mental pictures of the ones I had most interest in even if I was not ready to spend on them right now.

 

So not to got back to the Fuji fan club, but even though I like the Mossomoto, Hattori, Carbo next (is it really all the plus of a carbon with nearly the ease of SS?) Gekko, Misono, and a few others what can one expect compared to the Fujiwara or Tojiro, and especially the home cook or student etc?

 

It is also interesting that "wives" are subject all their own. Oddly much as she may not seem too enthused on this whole thing she has already shown my new toys off more than once. I think I we may have even infected one neighbor with the J knife bug so as usual who really knows what they are really thinking (a woman in general lol).

 

Thanks again for all the great info!!


 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #89 of 104
Thread Starter 

 

 

Quote:
So let's suppose you take a nice big high-quality gyuto, sharpen and polish it to kingdom come, do it wonderfully. You have an edge that has such teeny-tiny teeth that it becomes pointless even to talk about them. Now turn the knife on its spine and drop a ripe cherry tomato on the edge from a foot up. If you've really done it right, the teeth are irrelevant: there's no pushing back and forth, no sawing with them. Nevertheless, the tomato will shear cleanly into two halves. I love this: for me, it's the best test there is of a good edge. But you'll find it works just as well with the 2k.


Have been thinking about the above as well as many of your other related comments (did not want to continue the long quote as it was getting to be a monster lol) and I think it may be finally starting to sink in a bit smile.gif

 

I guess it is about time it did, but as usual just been over loading with large amounts of information at once etc.

 

Actually had an opportunity to try the tomato and it cut cleanly in half and right through the little made in the USA label from approx 8-9".

 

This was on the Fujiwara, and I did not try the Tojiro's as I only needed a few slices etc. Still this was good as I can rest a little that I got at least a decent edge on this one. If it can be improved only time will tell for now as I have no other way to determine etc, but I did need the boost for the ego or whatever.

 

But I also realized something else as well that was sort of a coincidence when attempting to take some pics of the edges to post as examples and review etc. The pics were horrible and were mostly glare, but one small section on the heel end of the edge on the petty came out clear and was enlightening, or at least very telling. It was a close up at full zoom and I could see that there was an odd look to the edge, and it was like it was concave and only the very edge and then again higher up on the blade at the top of the edge were being polished. Sort of like creating two polished lines with a small area that was unpolished separating them.

 

I was able to realize a few different things from this. First was that I need to be able to see better to really know what my edge is like lol, but the others are that VG-10 is going to need more attention or a more coarse initial stone to thin better or correctly, you can actually get a sharp edge without being 100% on the edge and some imperfections will not be as obvious as others, even when you question your abilities you may still be able to get a decent amount of sharpness even as a noob, things are not always as they appear, and just when you start to build some confidence you will be slapped down by the sharpening Gods and learn real fast that this is something that will keep one interested for a while as there is always room for improvement and plenty more to learn.

 

This has started me thinking that the coarse stone I was thinking could wait a while may have to come a little sooner than expected, and that I should likely be asking you guys what you would recommend etc. I was thinking something under 1K since I have the 2K already in the progression, and am maybe starting to feel OK with the idea of a coarse stone.

 

Is this all making sense, and if so what do you think?

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #90 of 104

I have several of [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002E0MU70/ref=oss_product]these little magnifiers [/url]that I use when sharpening.  Despite the claim they seem to be about 20X or so, give or take.  The real genius of this 'scope is that it has LED lights that shine precisely on what you're looking that.  They smoke a regular (and more expensive) loupe. 

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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