Tojiro DP F-809 240mm Gyuto a Good Budget/Entry level Intro to Japanese Knives? - Page 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus 

I have several of [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002E0MU70/ref=oss_product]these little magnifiers [/url]that I use when sharpening.  Despite the claim they seem to be about 20X or so, give or take.  The real genius of this 'scope is that it has LED lights that shine precisely on what you're looking that.  They smoke a regular (and more expensive) loupe. 

I had looked at those on eBay, but ended up getting a 30x loupe for around $2 delivered. It was really just that I was more familiar with the loupe from being around jewelers in the past, and could not find much info on the other style. They do look like a more modern tool though, and I am thinking I may try one since as much as the loupe is an improvement from small lens I have been using (I had an old small pair of binoculars that were broken and made use of the eye end lol) its field of view is very limited and really a strain on the eyes. Then again it could just be another chapter in cheap chinese crap I should have never bought.

So tell me more about the one you have. Can you view a reasonable length of the blade easily? If you move the blade further or closer to it can you still focus fairly well.

I ask because the answer with the 30x is no. Maybe it is just my eyes aging but then again I have always been seriously far sighted so who knows/

Either way it is really helpful to be able to see what your trying feel etc, and just knowing what your efforts are producing on a magnified level would seem to be able to help avoid any problem areas in your next session.

I wanted to touch on this again in case anyone does read this far through the thread in the future as I do understand your point better now after having some time with the Tojiro's. Your quote below was not as clear originally.

It seems IMHO that the VG10 really takes a while to wear the edge compared to the Moly steel used in the Fujiwara. Now since I have become very comfortable with the Fujiwara 240mm gyuto it is really doing much of the work I do (and does it very well I will add) and the Tojiro Santoku is seeing almost all its duty on chopping so it is hitting the board constantly when it is used. The thing is that the edge holds up beautifully and except for a couple times it saw some torque from a bit of a twisting action it has not chipped otherwise.

The Fujiwara is very sharp now from improvements in my ability to sharpen, and is a pleasure etc, but there is a real difference with the vg10, and though the Fujiwara is a bit easier to sharpen (it does sharpen very nicely and easily) the vg10 though a bit tougher to work with seems to get sharper and stay that way a bit longer.

I think I had stated how much I like this steel earlier, but I am finding the more I work with it the more I like it.

It is seeming that the next logical step for me is going to be some combination of a even better vg10 than the Tojiro combined with an improvement in fit, form, function (more like how the Fujiwara ergo's compare to the Tojiro etc).

I have decided that the style will be either a longer petty or suji as these are the two that I have found I would make most use of or be most practical, and that I will hold off on upgrading the gyuto for the future.

Have also decided that I want to try one of the better vg10 ones before one of the more expensive steels (semi carbon/ss etc) so I can get a feel for the true potential of vg10.

Planning on starting a new thread to compare the knives I am thinking about for comparing once I am closer to buying (Hattori HD & FH. Gekko, ?).

I have been able to notice the different feel of the san mai blade on the Tojiro, but so far am not sure if it is as much an issue as just different. Maybe it is because the Tojiro is only wrapped in one layer, but I expect time time will tell more etc.

Will be just enjoying the ones I have already for a bit longer before getting anything new, but have to admit I am more than a little curious and excited to see just how much an improvement the higher end products are in comparison as I am still a bit amazed at the improvements I have found in the Tojiro and Fujiwara.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus 

Not a bad idea at all.  The Tojiros are great values and instead of "outgrowing" them, as your sharpening skills increase you will grow into them!  The knife has a lot of capability waiting to be unlocked with a little thinning and a good shapening.  I still carry three of 'em in my work case and don't foresee getting rid of them in the near future.  The Tojiri is san-mai/clad, if that matters (it likely won't).  Most of the other "value" J-knives have similar potential, although the FKM won't have quite the "legs" as the Tojo.

 

It sounds to have a better design for checking an edge (a more usable focal length) than a loupe as these work great on jewelry but are tough when moving down the length of the edge of a knife.

May have to get around to getting one as it has been helpful to actually see what is happening on a magnified scale.

Quote:

Originally Posted by racineboxer 

Lenny are you still around?!?!    :)

 

 

I really enjoy this thread.  It's similar to a lot of my questions, especially on the differences between some of these value or mid-priced J-knives.

 

 

After another month do you have any more opinions on your Fujiwara vs. the Tojiro?

 

I am looking at adding a 150mm petty and it's like I keep looking at the Fujiwara, the Tojiro and the Hattori HD as my 3 favorites at 3 different price points.  I noticed that you were also thinking of getting another, longer, petty and if you had made a decision yet.  Do you think the Tojiro is worth the money over the Fujiwara?

Yes still around, but was away for a bit of R&R in an attempt to maintain sanity and couldn't post on my phone.

Glad the thread was helpful, and I couldn't find much comparison info on the lower end of the spectrum either and that's how it got started etc.

Got to admit I am really liking the Fujiwara, and it has helped to improve my skills and speed, but to be honest I have also become a real fan of VG10 (both in the Tojiro, and as a blade material in general) as well.

If I have not said it already I think that both BDL and Phedrus were spot on in their initial opinions posted as the Fujiwara has an excellent feel, and the Tojiro will take an edge that really lasts. The comments on chipping issues, and especially on plastic boards were also accurate, and you quickly learn if you have any twisting or torque in your technique, but on the positive side these are easy to work on or correct, will help improve your skill and cause you to get more time on the stones correcting the small chips etc. To be fair I had taken the Tojiro's to their limit in acute angles and since reducing it some so that there was more steel behind the edge the chipping is greatly reduced.

With all of that said I expect to be keeping the Fujiwara for a good while, and my thoughts on adding another brand for my next purchase is not as much a testimonial against them as much as part of my wanting to have more to compare etc. I believe that at some point I will trade up on the gyuto for a higher end product, but for now the Fujiwara is working just fine and my budget is not where I want it to be for when that happens.

Similar to yourself I am considering Hattori HD and FH series, plus others like the Gekko, Carbo Next,  and even a Fujiwara FKH carbon or something a bit more interesting in the Tenmi Jyuraku in Aogami Super   http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html  though I am not sure I want to be bothered with the care of carbon. I also thought the Shiki brand was very interesting and like the burled wood handles http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SHIKIDamascusSeries.html

but they are on the higher end of the price scale, and like so many others there is limited info avail.

Maybe in the near future I will start another thread comparing the possible future purchase items, but will most likely wait until I am closer to pulling the trigger etc

There is nothing wrong with the Tojiro petty either (well maybe other than there a little more pricey than when I purchased mine lol) and depending on what you have now it could be a nice addition.  The one I have gets sharper than or as sharp as anything else I have, the handle works well for me (it is not as large as the one many complain about on the larger knives) just fine, and like I said before it holds it's edge very well.

I guess I am sort of repeating parts of what phedrus was saying much earlier on in the thread about continuing to use the Tojiro due to it's edge retention and ability to get sharp easily etc, but it is the steel used in the blade that has me so sold on VG10 so this does make good sense as well.

Unfortunately since the economy is still kicking my butt I have not made the purchase yet, and can not offer any help in additional comparisons though I did kind of expect to have done so by now. Maybe you can pick of the HD and help me make up my mind lol, but seriously if funds do allow I am expecting to be around the HD price point and to go with one of the vg10 steels, but if it does not work out that way I am thinking one of the less expensive carbons would also be a good choice for me as it will allow to compare another steel with a similar price point as my current knives.

I guess the fact that this next purchase is less about need (remember I already have the 120mm Tojiro) and more about experiment or comparison to help with future decisions on upgrading the gyuto is keeping it on the back burner until that budget improves :)

Then again just the idea that these other brands are supposed to be so superior to what is currently so impressive in comparison to my previous knives is keeping the pressure on to make my next move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by butzy 

I'm not Lenny, but I have recently bought a Fujiwara petty .....

I bought the FKH 150 mm, the carbon steel one.

It is reactive as is usual for carbon steel, but I don't find it a problem. It just discolours...

It is not as stinky as I was scared of, neither does it discolour the food too much.

I find it easy to sharpen.

I'm definitely not an expert on knives (and I have no Tojiro to compare it with) but I find it quite a handy little knife (at a decent price)

Hope this helps

Butzy can you make any comparisons, or get into more detail on how maint has differed from other stain resistant steels you have used?

A lot of the input I can find on the net is from people who are really sold on carbon and most of the things that concern me (and very likely others) are just accepted by them and not really discussed as thoroughly as would be helpful.

I guess things like I have seen posted on other sites about transferring taste or color to foods that are cut or developing a patina and the many things related to the natural oxidizing process, or even how time between use can effect things etc can be concerning so lets hear your thoughts!

Quote:

Originally Posted by racineboxer 

 

 

I have a Tojiro DP Damascus 6" utility on the way.  I didn't order it, someone bought it for me.  Aesthetics are pretty important to me and I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the big logo/writing on the picture I see from CNM.  I know it's cheesy but I'd rather just have the japenese symbols.  We'll see how I like it and if I don't then I'll probably send it back and get the Hattori.  Or maybe even a Hiromoto G3 or Masamoto VG.

Thats funny because I felt the same way initially with CNM's pic on their site, but though not the most pleasing logo to the eye it was not as bad in person, and the DP I purchased (from CKTG) did have the character logo on the opposite side as well.

It sounds like you really are preferring one of the higher end/cost knives, and if the cost is not a concern that may be a better way to go. Unless your like me and need to learn first hand and therefore would not rest without testing the lower cost knife first etc then maybe just go for one of the others. Then again on the other hand I just realized that for me at least now I going to have to experiment with the higher end anyhow so hopefully your different and can just be happy with either you decide :)

On a side note the Massomoto VG was on my short list for a time, but something about the idea of paying more for VG5 than what I did for VG10 did not seem right, and once at that price level there are so many choices etc. I am wondering if BDL will have input on this as he seems to have a great deal of knowledge on the VG series, and actually hope so as it is a bit confusing as well.

Please do post a follow up on your thoughts on the Tojiro Damascus.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by butzy 

Lemme give it a try.....

 

I have a couple of stainless steel knives, mostly "no name" brands, a Victorinox  and a Global gs2.

These ones I just use (and sometimes abuse). The steel is as shiny as it was when I bought them although a bit scratched as I someone convinced me they could sharpen them properly....

 

I have 2 carbon steel knives, a very old Henckels and the new Fujiwara FKH petty

Both of them are very easy to sharpen, easier than the stainless steel.

The Henckels is very dark in colour now. Not shiny at all. I played around with this one before deciding on the Fuji. The Henckels used to smell when you would cut onions, tomatoes etc. Esp in the first couple of cuts. This has gone since I've started using it a bit more.

It used to look like it has all colours and shades of grey and blueish on the blade. One time I decided to dunk it into a glass of coke as I read somewhere that that gives a nice patina. It came out all grey. It looks nice that way. It's also easy for sharpening. You don't need to use the magic marker trick as you can easily see the shine edge appearing when you are sharpening.

 

The Fuji arrived nice and shiny. It didn't stink or discolour food even with the first cuts. Maybe I've just been lucky as a lot of people complain about it.

I actually found it quite fascinating to see the knife discolour. Even one single cut leaves "stains" on the blade. I don't find that a problem and if/when I get fed up with it I'll just dunk it in some coke!

I haven't used it extensively yet, but just to give you an idea: I use it on everything I cut whether acidic or not. After finishing cutting I rinse the knife under running water and the dry thoroughly. Sometimes I use a cloth to keep the knife dry in between cutting sections. As said, it's reactive, but I haven't seen any rust or anything forming.

I don't find it a problem to work with, but if you like shiny looking knives you are not going to like it.

 

The other knife I have is the CarboNext.

This one is also easy to sharpen, I would say as easy or almost as easy as the Fuji. It doesn't react with food nearly as much as the Fuji, but slightly more than stainless. I can see some discolouring on the blade if you look very carefully.

 

I sort of maintain my knives more or less the same way, whether stainless or carbon. I clean and dry the knives quite often, but sometimes I get called away while cutting something and the knife just lies for a while. This definitely shows on the carbon (the steel discolours wherever in contact withe the food). If that happens I check the knife and see if it is just patina or rust. The latter has seldom happened, but if it does, I scour it and clean and dry thoroughly. If patina, I normally just let it be. The knife can do it's own thing, I can always sort it later.

 

If you are interested in carbon, I would advise going the same way as I did. Buy a "cheapish" but good quality carbon steel knife and start using it.

 

If I decide to buy another knife, carbon would definitely be an option.

Having said that, the carbonext seems to combine the best of both worlds...

 

Hope the above makes any sense. I'm by no way a good reviewer and I haven't used that many different knives, It's just my experience/opinion

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info etc, and though most of us are not pro reviewers I think that is actually a big help as well due to how very differently a newbie or noob would experience and look at the comparison than someone with much more experience.

Even though the Carbo Next would seem to make more sense for my use I still find that I am being called  by my curiosity towards maybe trying a carbon.

Since I do take the time to clean up often etc I do not think that part would be a problem, but I am not sure I would be too excited about the whole patina or corrosion thing.

I think I will most likely try one of the higher end vg10 first, and see how that compares and if it is worth the additional cost, and then maybe look at the carbon or semi stainless/carbon knives later.

Have to admit though that I am still a bit excited about the idea that the ones I have now are entry level, and there is so much more out there. I have been trying not to think about it all that much though as this really can be like an addiction :)

:)