Time to get a new knife - suggestions?

Hi vas38

I can't really help you much with the choice of knives as I don't know enough about them.

You should be able to find some within your budget though.

As for sharpening, check out the following:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-sharpening-tutorials.htm

http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/index.htm

Good luck!

vas38:

I hope that you find these links useful:

Japan Woodworker

Japanese Chefs Knife

Japanese Knife Direct

Knife Merchant

Cookware

Dexter-Russell

Mundial Sushimen's Line [mirror website]

LamsonSharp

Fallkniven

F. Dick

Messermeister

Chroma

MAC

The first things to nail down are how much you're willing to spend on sharpening, how much time and how much trouble you're willing to devote to learning to sharpen.  Sharpening is pretty much everything.  Also important -- partly in terms of sharpening kit -- is whether you plan on using your old knives to supplement your new chef's. 

Without getting into which of these will ultimately be better for you, my feeling is that the best entry level Japanese knives (under $100) are the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM and MAC Superior.  You can get a lot more knife for an extra $50, though.  If you're trying to buy something which will keep you happy for years and years, it's well worth the extra money.

BDL

My carbon steel knives come from Wildfire Cutlery.

Easy experience and my knives are just what I wanted. He made me a whole set

copied form my current knives, and customized them to my needs.

His site is well worth reading. I cruised around and then called him

with my unanswered questions. I have no reservations about

having bought from him and highly recommend.

B

Sharpening Kit:  Bester 500, Beston 1.2K, Arashiyama (6K).  Flatten on drywall screen.  You'll have to learn to use them -- which will take awhile.  Cost, around $150. 

If that sounds outrageous, we can talk other options.  The best alternatives to bench stones are the Edge Pro Apex and the Wicked Edge systems, both high end tool and jig rod-guides.  An appropriate Edge Pro kit is around $200, and the Wicked Edge is a bit more. 

You can get adequate edges with a Chef's Choice electric (but not the manuals) -- the "Asian" 316S and 317 models run around $80 -- but edge quality is a far cry from benchstones or an Edge Pro. 

I don't recommend Sharpmaker, "Crock Sticks," or any of the pull-throughs including the Mino Sharp (probably the best of the bunch).  Some are better than others but none of them combine enough speed with enough polish to make them both convenient and fine enough to do justice to an expensive blade.  Climb down the ladder of blade quality a little, and that changes.

Length:  24cm (9-1/2") is a good compromise between productivity and intuitive comfort. 

Cutting Board:  If you need to get larger cutting boards you should.  Most (but not all) non-wood boards dull your knives quickly or may even promote chipping.  "End grain" hardwood is usually your best bet, and nothing too exotic.  Maple and cherry are probably the best choices.  Bear in mind that at some level "better" and "best" can get pretty silly. 

Particular knife:  There are a lot of excellent "pro" knives in the next couple of price groups above the entry-levels -- say, between $120 and $200. But, there's also a lot more I'd like to know before making recommendations.  Exactly how flexible is your budget for a chef's knife and stones?  Would you consider carbon (as opposed to stainless)?  How about a semi-stainless tool steel (feel free to ask if you don't know what that is)?  Do you like very large or very small handles?  Do you pinch grip?  Claw?  Cut and retreat?  What's your chopping style (German, French, push cut, don't know)?  Anything else you can tell me would help, too.  "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer.

In better than entry level stainless, I most often recommend Hiromoto G3, Kagayaki VG, MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, and Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff... depending.  In addition there are a lot of other great knives and several are bound to suit you.  

Prices:  Eeek!  Getting good performance from a good knife requires a good sharpening kit and board.  The sticker shock is something fierce, I know.  If you can't afford everything all at once, the best place to start is the board. 

BDL

Honing Rod: 

If you're going to use a honing rod on a well sharpened, good knife, you want to use something in the fine to polished range.  Most hones which are included with a block set are far too aggressive.  There are some excellent, reasonably priced ceramic hones; and I especially like the Idahone 12" fine ceramic. 

Bench Stone and Rod-Guide Alternatives: 

It's too big a subject for me to cover in detail, but I'll touch on a few options.

What you want is a system which is fast enough to do repairs and re-profiling, and fine enough to lay in an appropriate polish for your knives.  Very few systems have that sort of range.  Most fast systems will damage your knives -- and that includes just about every "carbide" sharpener in existence.  But most slow systems are too slow to get a dull knife sharp.

The next best alternatives to stones and the best rod guides (Edge Pro and Wicked Edge) are Chef Choice electric sharpeners.  They won't give you the world's greatest edge but they're convenient enough to get used as needed.  Actually, "next best" isn't accurate.  For some people, they're the only system which will get used consistently, give a decent edge, and won't damage a good knife if used properly (RFTM) -- and "only" is synonymous with "best," at least as a practical matter. 

I used to drag a couple lof CC electrics along when I taught cooking/skills classes in order to make sure everyone had a sharp knife; but also demonstrated bench stones to show they were faster and better.

There are a couple of animated steel/sharpeners which are sort of okay.  One is made by Chef's Choice, and the other is called the "Warthog" but I don't remember who makes it.  The Warthog is actually fun to use and watch.  The problem with boths of these is their limited choice of appropriate angles. 

The Spyderco Sharpmaker, "Crock-Sticks," and other forms of "V" sticks tend to be too slow at their coarsest and not fine enough at their finest.  Angle holding can be very problematic with longer knives.  They're great for maintaining pocket knives, but not so good for real sharpening.

A few of the manual pull throughs are okay, as long as you don't want a really fine edge, and aren't dealing with a seriously dull knife.  The Minosharp and MAC Rollsharp are probably the best of the bunch.  I don't think much of the Chef's Choice manuals, Henckels, Wusthof, etc.  But if that's all you have, that's all you have.

With one exception (the one sold by Blackie Collins), all of the V slot sharpeners I can think of offhand will eat your knives.

Cutting Board:

I suggest using your wood board for everything -- cleaning and sanitizing as needed.  Plastic boards are very tough on your knives.  While it's true that they can go in the dishwasher, good workhabits and a spary bottle with diluted bleach or a commercial board sanitizer are just as salubrious.  All of the current plastics are so hard on knives.

Grip and handles:

Except at the extremes your grip will determine what size handles are appropriate for you -- hand size isn't usually much of an issue.  Even though you already pinch grip you might want to read Getting a Grip on a Good Pinch -- it will help make sense of handle sizes as they relate to grip and knife length too.

Knives:

The Hiromoto and Kagayaki VG-10 both have narrow handles.  The Tojiro DP (not on your list) has a very wide handle which some people find uncomfortable.  MACs have handles which nearly everyone loves.  Masamotos and Misonos are very nearly as good. 

The two knives I most often recommend for people more or less looking for the same things you are and with the same set of concerns are the MAC Pro and the Masamoto VG.  The Kagayaki VG is more bang for the buck and uses a prestige alloy; but I don't like its handle as much, nor the feel of its profile on the board, and there can be some issues with deburring. 

The Masamoto has a profile as good as -- and very much like -- a Sabatier.  In short, as good as it gets.  There are some quality control issues, mostly centered around the handle, but these can be taken care of by the seller at time of purchase.  You just have to make sure to tell them you want good F&F and a well-fitted handle before you give them your credit card number, and they'll select a good one for you.

MACs are stiffer than any comparably thin gyuto and consequently feel more sturdier and more comfortable.  The MAC Pro handle is the best I've ever used.  F&F is typically very good -- and if it's not their warranty and U.S. support is almost in Henckels' class.  It's the knife I recommend most often.

You might also want to take a serious look at the Kikuichi TKC (at Chef's Knives To Go).  Like the Kagayaki CarboNext (what a horrible name!), I've never personally used one.  But people I trust speak of them very highly and they're compared to more expensive knives I know to be very good.  If you're willing to take a flyer on something which hasn't been around very long the Kagayaki CarboNext is supposed to be very good.  The rumor is that it's the same knife as the Kikuichi sold under a different knife -- not at all impossible in Japan.  It's so new that I'm not sure if I trust the raves, but it certainly has a good pedigree.  If I were going Kagayaki (JCK's house "brand," made by various OEM makers), it would be the one I'd choose.  

Hope this helps,

BDL

BDL.

Great info

I have stayed away from hard surface boards forever, but never knew the plastics were an issue as well.

Are the bamboo boards any good?

Where would one find a good end grain wood board at a reasonable price, and what should we look for?

I am sure I am not the only one considering a new board or two for the new knives, and hope the info is helpful to others as well.

If I were buying a mass-produced, stainless, Japanese made, western handled chef's knife in that price range -- which I'm not -- I'd choose the Masamoto for myself.  However, I think the MAC is better for most people and have recommended it more often than any other blade, probably been responsible for something like thirty sales, have given four as gifts, but never given a Masamoto VG.

So, yeah.  I think the MAC is a great choice.

I have several boards, including one made from bamboo.  It's kind of hard, and knives do dull kind of quickly compared to some other choices.  FWIW, it's not the bamboo that's so hard, it's the glue -- or so I'm told.  Along the Great Board Continuum, bamboo is far better than any plastic, better than composition, roughly equal to Sani-Tuff, not as good as normal maple edge grain, and certainly not as good as a good edge grain board -- all things considered.  

Home Depot was selling some pretty good end grain boards at an attractive price.  I think they still are.  They're not as good as Board Smith, but what is?

BDL 

The hone BDL is referring to is a ceramic honing rod- it's for maintaining your knife not flattening your stones.  I'll let him describe his preferred flattening method; I prefer a DMT Dia-Sharp for flattening, although I have some other methods, too.  The Idahone is a terrific tool, the nicest ceramic I've used.  I have two of them, an 8 incher that I keep in my work roll and a 12" that I keep at home.  I also have a Hand American borosilicate glass honing rod that I keep in my work case for harder Japanese blades...it's very nice but really a luxury item.

I haven't used the 500 grit Beston yet.  I should have mine in a week, maybe a little longer due to shipping being a little slower during the Christmas season.  Hopefully someone that's used the kit you're talking about can chime in, but philosophically I'm a little dubious of a stone set that doesn't include a 1k.  Perhaps some will choose an 800 or 1,200 instead but I think a good stone in that range is mandatory.  Setting aside talk of specific stones, if I had to get by with just one stone I'd want a 1k.  Allow me two stones and I'd add a 4k/5k.  If I could add one more I'd be torn between an 8k and a good arato, perhaps a 320, 400 or 500.

We were talking about flattening?  I flatten on dry-wall screen mounted in a sheet pan, cleaning the screen with the sink's pressure hose when it loads up.  The pan contains the mess.  I either need reading lessons or new glasses. 

The Idahone rods are fantastic, if I were buying one hone that would be it; and if I were buying two, it would be one of them.  I do use a two hone set, including a HandAmerican Borosilicate and an old, worn-down Henckels fine.  The HA rod is fantastic, but is very expensive and you don't really need it.

Bester makes four medium-coarse stones, 800, 1K, 1.2K and 2K.  The only real difference between them is speed.  So... the 1.2K is faster than the 2K, but otherwise alla time same same.  Faster is important.  You want to find a blance which allows you to use the fewest number of strokes on the fewest number of surfaces to do a nearly perfect job for each task and/or level in the sharpening progression. 

If you decide that you'd really rather have a 1.2K than a 2K don't look at the choices in the CKTG set as set in stone.  Mark at CKTG is a flexible guy and might be willing to sub the 1.2K into the set in place of the 2K -- which, in my opinion, would make it a better set.  While I've never talked to him about stone sets specifically, Mark is a great listener and avid reader of the knife boards and I'm guessing that this set is favored by some influential people on KF.  I'd bet dubloons agains donuts that the consensus at FF would be in favor of the 1.2K.   

What I don't like about the way the CKTG set is put together is that the 2K is not fast enough for the first stone in a normal sharpening progression (where there isn't going to be any profiling), but the 500 is too fast (coarse stones have consequences).  I'm not saying you can't make it work, just that it wouldn't be my first choice.  Phaedrus obviously agrees.

Another piece of the puzzle is to recognize that stones have individual character.  Stones of the same nominal grit levels can be very different from one another in terms of speed, brightness of polish, how well they remove scratch, how "slippery" they make the edge, and so on.  Not to delve too deeply into nuance and make this any more confusing than it already is, but when we're analyzing the Bester 2K, we're not talking "Oh no no no!" like we were about the GS 2K.  The Bester 2K would probably work better in that position than almost any other 2K, partly because it's very fast for a 2K and partly because the Bester's edge quality is more sharp than shine, while the GS's is vice versa.  

On top of that, the Arashiyama is very fast for a 6K (in addition to being a very fine polisher for that grit level), and will do better following a 1.2K stone than anything I know of which polishes nearly as well.  IMO, the Arashiyama is the best stone on the market at or near its grit.  Ditto for the Bester 1.2K.  

I think stone choice in the  medium-ish range -- from 800 to around 6K -- is more dependent on how you understand the sharpening processes than in the very coarse and very fine ranges, and that's most true for the first stone in the normal sharpening progression (draw a burr, chase a burr, polish).  My priorities with the first stone are to pull the wire very quickly without creating too much scratch, avoid creating high and low spots, and have a stone fast enough to flatten minor imperfections.  I'm not sure if Phaedrus and I are on the identical wave-length, but doubt we're far apart.  If this is interesting to you, or even if it's just confusing, you might want to read "Philosophies" of Sharpening.

You should feel free to talk to Mark (although I'd wait til after Christmas) about this -- he loves to help customers -- and also to mention that you've been talking to me.

BDL

Shapton GS do need to be flattened -- almost as often as the Besters.

Flattening is no big deal just tedious -- It's especially easy (not to mention more tedious) if you flatten on screen rather than using a diamond plate.  Since a lifetime supply of screen is about $10, it's not a bad thing to start out with it and no big deal if you change your mind and decide you want to invest $80 in a DMT XXC. 

In addition to flattening them right OOTB, you'll also need to bevel the sides of the Besters (as with all normal waterstones).  This means holding the well soaked stone at a 45* angle to the flattening surface (or the flattener at a 45* angle to the stone) and rubbing back and forth.  Oh dear.

The Besters require about 30 minutes of soaking before they're usable, and more than an hour before they're at their juicy best.  Is that an issue?

Understand that people buy stones without knowing how to prep them before using or even that they need prep at all.  And when that lack of knowledge creates problems (right away!) they call Mark and kvetch.  Mark, no doubt, is basing his recommendation on the stones which give the fewest problems to the masses.  But you're not the masses.  You have the wisdom of Chef Talk.   

I'm not much of a fan of the GS series in any case.  My verdict is more shine than sharp.  They are fast, convenient, and the bevels they make truly gleam, but at the end of the day I think you get better edges on less expensive stones.  Consequently, I disagree with Mark and think you'd be better off starting with the Bester than with the GS. 

If you don't want to deal with the inconvenience of soaking and flattening, and if you've got any anxiety about other aspects of the bench stone learning curve, you might just buy an Edge Pro and be done with it.  They do a really good job, and other than set up and take down are practically painless. 

You're better off learning to sharpen before buying new knives, but only slightly so.  Learning to sharpen takes time and commitment, yes.  But it's not particularly difficult, it doesn't take much talent or brains (look at me), it just sort of happens if you do it enough.  The big thing might be demonstrating to yourself that you can and will so that when you do buy an expensive knife you're beyond the point of allowing it to get dull, feeling overwhelmed, and losing interest. 

Also, it helps to ease the blow to the budget to invest in one thing at a time.  And if you want to prioritize, good sharpening trumps a good knife.  People so often want to buy a $200 knife plus sharpening gear and a steel for $225 (and if I get that a lot, you can imagine how often Mark does).  Unfortunately... 

Consider though that unless you're using coarse stones, you really can't do much damage.  So as long as you have the commitment to learn to sharpen, there isn't that much downside to learning on a good knife.  Also, some knives do better than others with certain sharpening kits.  For instance, you'll get a lot more from a Bester sharpening a MAC Pro than you will sharpening a Mercer.  And fwiw, the Mercer will actually sharpen better on oilstones.  

Since he features so prominently in this thread, I might as well mention that Mark really cares about matching you with stuff you're going to be able to use right off the bat and will like for a long time.  He's not going to hose you in order to make an extra buck. 

Lots to confuse, no?

BDL  

PS.  If you're going the bench stone route... Yes, I'd start with the Bester 1.2K and the Arashiyama.  Learn to draw a burr on the Bester before even attempting the Arashiyama.  That will probably take four or five tries. After you've become sufficiently adept at angle holding to consistently actually sharpen with the Arashiyama, you can move on to using a coarse stone like the Beston 500 -- which you'll eventually need -- for profiling.  You should be doing minor profiling to the extent of flattening the high spots, which are an inevitable part of ordinary sharpening, once for every four or five times you use the 1.2K.  For home cooks, that means every year or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 
And if you want to prioritize, good sharpening trumps a good knife.  People so often want to buy a $200 knife plus sharpening gear and a steel for $225 (and if I get that a lot, you can imagine how often Mark does).

This is probably the single best statement I've seen made on knives on this site!  The knife simply exists to carry the edge around.  Fancy handles, Damascus cladding, exotic steels, celebrity endorsements- none of that means anything in the end.  The edge is what matters.  You're better off with one knife and a good set of stones than 10 expensive knives that you can't keep sharp.  The further "down the rabbit hole" I go the more my interest in stones is starting to outstrip my desire to get more knives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vas38 

It seems like using stones to sharpen is one of those intimidating sounding things that ends up being simple once you try it. I think I'll invest in the stones (Bester 1.2k and Arashiyama 6k) and a Idahone 12" first and get used to using them then pick up the knife. Might not be as "fun" but it will give me the best results for my money.

 

 

Very true.  In the beginning your efforts might not yield bevels that looks neat and shiny but from the start you should be able to get an edge that cuts well.  Neatness will come in time and you'll get better as you go along.  Just check out the videos Mark has posted at CKtG for tips and you should do fine.

First thing from this that is sticking in my mind is "and make this any more confusing" as the more I seem to read about wetstones the more confusing it seems to become.

You bring up two issues that seem both important and difficult to understand. The difference between stones of the same or similar ratings, and just what is a proper progression between the stone ratings, and how this all relates to what one would really want (especially a noob etc)

What I am saying is would a 500 1.2K 6K be any better than a 700 2K 6K? How could different brand stones change this comparison even more?

It is sounding like 2K GS Shapton I have just received may well end up between progressions and end up delegated to my non J knives or non kitchen knives etc. This is not a problem as I really needed something for the finer finishing level for these anyway, but honestly I am beginning to wonder if even that makes sense.

A few related questions would be if it is needed to go below a certain level stone for touching up an edge? (is 1K, 2K or even 5K good for this) . If your skills improve to where your able to get acceptable results from an 8K or 10K stone what level would you want to start at when doing basic maintenance on this edge?

I am just a little concerned that I do not make any other decisions that I may end up questioning etc., and hope to find a good initial set up that would be helpful to anyone new to wetstones as the wealth of opinions found online lead us in various directions.

I never realized before that drywall screen comes in different "grits" (100 180 220 etc). Do you use or recommend any one over another?

I use the coarsest screen for flattening -- which IIRC is 80, then lap with a 220.  After flattening my 3K, I lap it with screen then the 1.2K.  After flattening my 8K lap it with the 1.2K, then the 3K.  Lapping stone doesn't take much pressure or many strokes.  Of course everything must be properly wet -- in the case of my stone that means at least an hour of soaking for the Beston and Bester, and about 10 minutes for the Chosera and SS. 

When you lap stone on stone, do it under water and keep the stones moving to make sure they don't stick together.  This is a big problem.  It's a lot like a tongue sticking to a frozen fence not only in the sticking but in that you should take it on faith and not check it out for yourself.

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

I use the coarsest screen for flattening -- which IIRC is 80, then lap with a 220.  After flattening my 3K, I lap it with screen then the 1.2K.  After flattening my 8K lap it with the 1.2K, then the 3K.  Lapping stone doesn't take much pressure or many strokes.  Of course everything must be properly wet -- in the case of my stone that means at least an hour of soaking for the Beston and Bester, and about 10 minutes for the Chosera and SS. 

 

When you lap stone on stone, do it under water and keep the stones moving to make sure they don't stick together.  This is a big problem.  It's a lot like a tongue sticking to a frozen fence not only in the sticking but in that you should take it on faith and not check it out for yourself.

 

BDL

I have read where you flatten in a pan filled with water, and that sounds simple enough, but is the lapping with another stone an extra or option or is it needed?

Also how does the screen work on the edges? I am guessing your holding the stone at an angle to the screen and not the other way around.

If your following and finer stone is 4K or coarser, the 1K is great; but I'd hold out for the 1.2K if the next stone is 6K or coarser.  It won't be more than a few weeks of waiting at most; and you'll have the stone for years. 

It's not going to make a great deal of difference either way.

FWIW:  1) I do not flatten in a pan filled with water.  I flatten -- or used to do so until a couple of weeks ago -- on dry wall screen set in a baking sheet. I rinsed the screen frequently with the sink's pressure hose to keep it from loading up.  But I was given a DMT XXC for Channukah.  2) It's important -- but not critical to lap your finer stones before using them.  And 3) Yes, I left the sheet and and screen flat on the counter parallel to the horizon while holding the stone at an angle relative to it.  Beveling the stone's edges is critical.  It keeps the edges from forming "rails" and keeps the edges and corners from crumbling.  Not only are those things bad for the stone, but they cause a variety of problems with the knife edge as well.

BDL