knives, whet stones, sharpening - an update and some questions

Congratulations on the CN!  So far all the response has been very positive.  If we don't know exactly what the steel is, we do know that it's a "high speed tool steel" with enough chromium in it to prevent rust and a very good balance of iron and carbon. 

For the way most of us sharpen, that you can raise a burr and get rid of it on most of your knives speaks well of your sharpening ability.  Don't worry, it will not only improve with practice but will take a quantum leap when you get your new stones.  Their size alone is going to make things much easier. 

When you get them (or was it an it?), make sure to level and chamfer before using.

Part of getting rid of the burr is "chasing" it.  That means turning the knife over and sharpening the other side until the burr moves; and repeating the process until the burr flips with every stroke.  Some knives require still more. I get rid of difficult burrs by steeling the knife a few times (3 times on each side should be enough) to get the burr flipping very easily, then draw the knife through a wine cork, hard felt, cardboard, the end-grain of a small piece of wood, or the corner of a cutting board.  All of these are pretty effective. 

Hope this helps,

BDL

I love spending sprees!

Truth be told, I'll send really damaged knives or dull cleavers out for service. If you need a belt sander to reprofile a knife - just send it out.

    - Then fine-tune stuff on your stones. They are not designed for all that hard work.

I have an FKH Sujihiki I just use for meat. Have not had the stinky problem with it.

I've used older carbon knives that have that stinky problem -

A worn patina seems to mitigate the issue, but that's really an unacceptable quality in any knife.

If you're using high-end stones on high-end knives then keep the angles if you're happy with them as-is.

All my working knives are set to whatever the 15-degree? angle is on my SpyderCo SharpMaker.

That's not any kind of suggestion - it's just what is easier to maintain because of the portability of the SharpMaker kit.

Butzy, I'm not in favor of flip-flopping the burr from one side to another. Burr formation is relative to 3 factors IMO; the coarseness of your stones, the number of moves/strokes you make on the stones and the pressure/downforce you use on the knife. This also means that you can play around with these factors. Pushing a knife very hard on a coarse stone is not productive at all; soon you will deform the curve of your knive. So, go easy on the number of strokes and downforce, this will cause less burr formation. The moment you've done just one side, drag the entire edge -from heel to tip- gently through a piece of soft wood. Repeat a few times if necessary. Then sharpen the other side and repeat the deburring. When almost done with one stone, make a few strokes with almost no pressure at all and deburr again until it's all gone.

Only then proceed to another stone with higher grit. The higher the grit (the lower coarseness), the less burr will occur but you still need to deburr. The burr itself becomes smaller and smaller. Just proceed exactly the same way as on the rougher stone. You should be able to produce a very sharp edge with only a 1k grit stone! My advise; stay away from low grits (below 800) if not absolutely necessary.

On your angles; well, it's my personal opinion of course, but I would never go lower than 15° for Japanese knives and 18-20° for others. In fact, I always sharpen Japanese ones at around 18° and I have a few reasons for doing so;

- you will scratch up the blade. Going to 8° as you suggest will scratch the sides. Indeed, minor objestion, except when you have a lot of damascus knives.

- your edges wear very fast with low angles. You will have to sharpen much more often. 

- your knife will chip very easy. Plain and simple.

- a question of feedback; every piece of meat will feel the same if you go to very low angles. I want to feel wether a piece of meat is tender or not.

As I said, this is from my own experience. But then again, to each their own methods and ambitions.

Rumor is, Globals hang onto their burrs annoyingly long. So if everything else is going wonderfully, that might the issue instead of you.

I hear that about Globals too, Chris. Ditto for my very humble Fujiwara FKM's. Best way to work around it, is to reduce the burr formation and to get rid of it asap, just as I described in my own sharpening vision in my previous post. Works perfect on the FKM's..  and all others.

Good Thread.

Congrats on the new knives.  When I was cooking full time I found it difficult to keep an edge on my knives.  One reason is that it is hard, even if  you are practiced and know what you are doing to keep the angle consistent at all times.  One time you might have a 15 degree angle and the next a 17 degree angle.  And it can vary from tip to heel.  There are so many variables that make it difficult to find consistency.  I know there are a lot of people here that probably know way more than I do about this subject, but what I found if you don't mind me throwing my opinion into the arena, is that you need some kind of device that holds the angle consistently through the stroke on the stone.  That being said there are very few options that work well.  I tried Lansky Diamond sharpening system and it is the closest I have come to maintaining a consistent angle on my knives.  I typically keep my knives at the factory angle.  It's a lot of work to change from factory to a custom angle in my opinion.  Back to Lansky.  They do a good job, the stones are ok but not the greatest.  Then I found The Wicked Edge sharpening system and now there is no need to over think the sharpening deal.  Just insert your knife, lock it in place, set the angle for both sides, and go for it.  That simple.  No flip flopping of the knife just maintain the same angle all the way through the sharpening process.  Works like a charm and couldn't be easier.  It's expensive.  That being said, if you're just starting your career, it is an investment that will last a lifetime.  So the cost amortized over a career of just 20 years is well worth it.  Anyway that is just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth.  Good luck and God Bless, have fun no matter how you work it out.  Life is an adventure, make the most of it.

Paul

P. S. If you tell Wicked Edge I sent you they will give you a 20% discount on your purchase so give it a try.

Every time I see someone post something similar to this I know I must have a smile on my face as it is really good to see others think or feel the same.

I think it has something to do with the sense of accomplishment of doing it yourself, and the fact that basically though not rocket science it is not easy to sharpen correctly so when you can see the improvement it is a real motivator and a good feeling from a job well done (and yes even when the job was not done totally right either lol).

Plus it is very interesting as your skills improve your opinion of just what is sharp really does change.

Oh and yes your very likely beyond help, but your not alone by any means :)

Goeie reis Butzy!

Remind me what brand of stone it is, and I can probably tell you how long to soak it.

BDL

Most of these synthetic composite stones need to be soaked. How long? At least until they are saturated with water, which means as long as tiny airbubbles escape from the stones when submerged. Could be 1 minute, could be 5 minutes or longer. A brandnew dry stone always takes a minute longer. I never soak longer than 3-4 minutes.

Also, more important, keep the stones very wet on the surface when sharpening by plunging them from time to time into the water, and I wipe (just use a hand to rub the surface) and rinse them regularly under water or under a running watertap to get rid of metalparticles during the sharpening.

Some stones are "splash and go," but most stones require a bit more than five minutes.  Some are very fast, such as the majority of ultra-fine polishers, the Naniwa SS series and Shapton GS; others, like the Beston and Besters require hours; most fall somewhere in the middle.  It depends on the type of binder (clay, resin, magnesia) and other factors as well. 

You'll want to shoot Koki an E-Mail and check, but I believe the JCK combi gets about 30 minutes in the tub before each use.  After you use the stone make sure you allow it dry completely (out of the sun) before putting it away.  Depending on the climate, that will probably take overnight, at least. 

Before using it the first time, you'll want to fully soak it, chamfer all eight edges, and flatten both sides. 

New water stone users often don't realize that new stones aren't ready to go right out of the box, they need a little work. Chamfering the edges will make the stone much stronger and far less likely to crumble along them or at the corners.  Flattening before the first use not only ensures that you're working with a flat surface (very important!), but breaks up the factory "glaze" which forms as a part of firing.  If you don't flatten before the first use, you'll need to do a lot of sharpening before your stone reaches its full potential.

I don't remember how you've decided to flatten.  Dry wall screen is very effective and inexpensive.  I don't know what they call it in Europe, but I assume it's available under one name or another.  A flattening stone or special plate will also work, but it's a bit more expensive.  When you figure out what you're going to use to flatten, let me know and I'll tell you how to go about it.

BDL

A couple of years ago I learned a fun and useful trick for knowing if a stone is fully soaked or not. Lift it out of the water and turn it on its end, so the water runs off the surface. Now touch the tip of your tongue to the surface of the stone. Your tongue-tip is extremely sensitive. If the stone is not fully impregnated with water, it will adhere to your tongue just a little bit, and you will detect this immediately. If the stone is fully soaked, it won't do this.

Word of advice: make sure nobody sees you do this unless they understand entirely what you are doing, or you will probably end up incarcerated for psychiatric examination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by butzy 

Chris, I'm now stuck with this image in my head of someone in a straight jacket with a whet stone attached to his/her tongue!!!!!

 

Will give it a try though when no-one is watching

Hey, I'm just sayin'...

Aha, so you just succeeded in sharpening your first virgin knife. It's indeed quite satisfying.

Maybe something on higher grit stones. Your 4k stone serves to polish the edge after sharpening on a rougher stone. You don't need to use a lot of downforce to polish, just a bit more time. That also implies there will be very few burr.

Cutting yourself is part of the experience. You will also enjoy rubbing some skin from your fingers on rough stones.

I found this picture of a "big" stone. Seems the guy never spoke again since he licked it, not to mention his wife's disappointment.

Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium 

Most of these synthetic composite stones need to be soaked. How long? At least until they are saturated with water, which means as long as tiny airbubbles escape from the stones when submerged. Could be 1 minute, could be 5 minutes or longer. A brandnew dry stone always takes a minute longer. I never soak longer than 3-4 minutes.

Also, more important, keep the stones very wet on the surface when sharpening by plunging them from time to time into the water, and I wipe (just use a hand to rub the surface) and rinse them regularly under water or under a running watertap to get rid of metalparticles during the sharpening.

I was told by, can't-remember-whom, that I shouldn't wash the 'mud' when sharpening on the water stone for it helps to sharpen??  I don't use this water stone very often.  I picked this stone and yanagiba in Korea for the purpose of practicing caring and sharpening single bevel knives before I invest in better quality.  Has anyone heard anything about this??

Water stones work differently from oil stones. 

Oil stones are created -- naturally or artificially -- with the abrasives baked or compressed into very hard binder materials.  The binders aren't soluble and are difficult to wear away, so the abrasive stays on the surface of the stone.  If swarf is left on the stone, it can either clog the stone or crawl up the sides of the knife and scratch it.  Consequently, it's important to keep the stone as free from swarf as possible.  In fact, that's the purpose of using oil -- to float the swarf.   

Water stones are different.  The binders are both softer and soluble.  The binder and abrasive are lifted from the stone by the action of the knife and create a slurry which is often referred to as "mud."  Because fresh abrasive is constantly coming up, water stones tend to work faster than oil stones.  Anyway, it is the abrasive particles in the mud which do (and should do) most of the sharpening, not the abrasives stuck on the surface of the stone.

As a general rule one doesn't want to rinse the mud away frequently.  Only when it becomes completely loaded up with swarf.  As the abrasives in the mud break down, they make the stone act as though it were a finer grit.  In effect, it's like working with two stones:  The first stone fast, and the second one fine -- perfect! 

Some stones though DO work better with lots of rinsing.  It's easy enough to find out what works best with yours.  Just try it both ways.

Hope this helps,

BDL

BDL;"...Some stones though DO work better with lots of rinsing.  It's easy enough to find out what works best with yours.  Just try it both ways..."

Even better, some stones produce different results when used with "mud" vs "naked".

A great example are my natural coticules, polishing stones estimated 6-8k. Normally they are used after having rubbed some mud out of the stones using a small coticule. This will produce a very nice almost mat finish.

Use the same stone without mud and the polishing will result in a mirrorshiny result, but the feeling while polishing is totally different. The mud works smooth and slows down the movements on the stones. Working "naked" feels like gliding over a very tough surface. I use this method for the last polishing strokes that are performed without pressure on the knife.

I always rinse the moment I hear scratching sounds that are probably caused from metalparticles on the stone,could be very tiny bits of burr detaching from the blade?

A minor note: many high-end stone professionals in Japan, using seriously high-end natural stones, do not get rid of swarf no matter how much there might be. The mud is so important to that sharpening process that they'd rather have mud corrupted by swarf than low mud.

Which just leads back to BDL's point. Try it with minimal mud -- rinsing often; try it again with mud until it's fairly black; and try it yet again allowing whatever happens to happen and build up as much mud as will build. See what works best for your stone. With synthetics, on the whole you can work out what's best for a given stone and then every one you buy will be the same. With naturals, you have to learn how the stone works best, stone by stone. If you don't think that sounds like fun, don't even think about touching naturals!

You all continue to keep my mind busy every time I visit this site :)

Am I reading this correctly that it may actually be better not only to sharpen in the mud that develops from contact between the knife and stone, but also the mud that is full of steel that has been removed from the blade can also be a benefit?

OK on certain stones that can change, but never even considered there would be a positive once the mud was full of steel etc.

I guess this idea of leaving all the mud and swarf on the stone would be something I would need to work at since I have been trying to use the mud as much as possible, and then once it was full of steel particles I would just utilize the entire length of the stone for grinding the edge, and that would normally push or pull the mud off the end of the stone (and all the steel with it as well)

Since this was never really an issue with the norton I used for so many years (I just washed it all off of the stone with more water to clear it up) it is something that takes a little getting used to. Plus the fact that some (I see the carter vids showing to make full use of the entire stone to reduce dishing and speed things up a bit) seem to just push the mud off the stone during the normal strokes of the blade only makes it more interesting/confusing.

Please let me know if I got this right as I am sure I am not the only one thinking WTF and that depending on the stone it may be better to fully utilize the entire length, others may do better with some mud, and others yet may perform best with trying to actually sharpen through the steel filled swarf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by butzy 

Not (yet) in that jacket and managed to give the stone-licking exercise a try.

It didn't stick!

Only needs a couple of minutes to get thoroughly wet.

 

Proceeded in sharpening the gyuto JCK carbonext. It was fairly sharp to start of with, but since the FKH petty was sharper, I figured it was worth a try.

I used the magic marker trick.

Sharpening on the 1000 grit side was fast and pretty straight forward. A bigger stone is definitely a big plus!

After deburring etc I went to the 4000 side. This took quite a bit longer, but no real problems.

Deburred and cleaned the knife. Cut my thumb and I wasn't even really toughing the edge (just trying to clean off the magic marker line).

The knife is very sharp (according to my gradations and sharper than any knife I've ever held)

 

It's now sharper than the FKH petty, so that's my next job.

 

Man, I'm enjoying this.

Very satisfying

 

Butzy that almost mirrors my experience. I would find after spending a little extra time attempting to improve the edge I thought was not as sharp as the other that it became even sharper than the previously sharper knife, and then that got me to pull out the stones again and try to improve on the other that was then seemingly dull compared to the newly sharper knife.

I dont think I am going to be licking the stones anytime soon (not only am I feeling nuts enough with all of this, but I have this vision of Ralphie from a Christmas story with is tongue stuck to the flag pole  lol)  but do have more than one of those nice fine cuts in my fingers from attempting to measure sharpness or just putting a little too much pressure on the edge.

One thing that caught my attention was that you were having to remove the marker from the edge. Was that because you made the line too thick or just did not remove it all when sharpening?

I ask because if you put the line on the edge correctly I think you want to be grinding it off completely because otherwise your changing the bevel. I have more than once picked up a magnifier to check the accuracy of the marker on the edge to make sure it was right because you can (and I have before) find that the width of the marker line is actually wider than you wanted to thought and you end up trying to remove material in areas you may not really wanted to, or even vice-versa etc.

Also great to hear your finding your way to improved sharpness and improving upon your previous sessions as that is a great feeling, big motivator, and I believe in more ways than one what it's all about!