Getting Fed Up with ILLEGAL home bakers - Page 2

Maybe it's time we start treating these scofflaws like the "At-home tattoo artists" get treated.

Some guy starts working out of his kitchen, tattooing guys for half what they pay at a legit shop... the local boys get wind of it, and they pay him a "visit". Inform him of the local laws and...erm... unwritten laws. The smart ones go legit fast... the dumb ones leave town and try it somewhere else.

I wasn't offended by any of the comments. This is a good discussion! I've done a lot of thinking about this since yesterday when I found out about the new legislation. I agree with all the comments about sanitation. Frankly, I'll gladly work out of a commercial kitchen over my place. There are too many positives about working in a commercial kitchen (like washing dishes and proper storage), and I do think it bodes well for a food peddler to say they're in a licensed commercial kitchen versus their home. There's a much better control factor as far as keeping it clean. I'll have to have insurance regardless of where I produce, so it's really a matter of convenience. In the long run, it makes sense.

I did write the legislator as to why the bill was passed, but I have yet to hear anything about it. What I DID find interesting after watching the video of the vote is that (yes, it was horribly boring) - like much of what goes on in government, the votes were aligned with the respective parties. I don't want to get into politics, but suffice it to say it was partisan. Hmm...

Anyway, I get my inspection next week at the restaurant from where I'll be working. I hope to have my own place someday, but that will be another chapter.

Most laws are passed because there are othr laws attached to it or part of it. Thats the way these bums play the system. Most of them do not even know what they are signing unless it directly affects them and their backers.

Hm... I'd run it past my lawyer first. Just because!

Pan, would you really retire before I could get to Dallas??!

Mezz

Pan !  Make sure you are charging time and a half at least for the holiday.

Your a good man Charley (Panini) Brown

I was surprised when I learned last year that there are currently ten states that allow home-based bakers to sell their baked goods directly to the public. The states are: Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, and Virginia. The are supposed to be licensed and get inspections like a commercial kitchen but it is still a little weird.

BOVINE SHARES... ok, THAT cracked me up...   LOVE IT.  I need raw milk to make cheese (for personal consumption) and now I know how to get it.  NICE

Here in California,  baking from home and selling is ILLEGAL,  that is why I do not bake as a business although I know I am good enough to go on business.

But as practice and self satisfaction I have to bake.  I GIVE away everything I make.  I make free wedding cakes, free birthday and any occasion cakes to friends and family.

I have been baking for 18 years and NO one has gotten sick of my baking...ever.. I have seen commercial kitchens that are  dirty compared to home kitchens.

Besides I bake for pleasure not for stress or money.  It is more fun for me that way.  I bake when I feel like it and not when someone pays me to..

Fair enough.

Thing is, a professional bakery has high overhead costs (rent, power, equipment, etc)  as well as having kitchens up to code.  This means NSF rated equipment, proper sanitation equipment, licensed suppliers (refrigerated delivery vehicles) appropriate amount of sinks, floor and ceiling materials, and staff with proper sanitation training. Not to mention insurance...

The point I'm trying to make is that all the above costs money, and can't be avoided.  The majority of home based businesses do not have this infrastructure and can offer much lower prices.  This really wreaks havoc with pricing structures and customer's expectations.

Home bakers need not be inspected. Commercial does

Home bakers can have their pet running around the kitchen. Commercial can not

Home bakers are not forced to adhere to any health or sanitation procedures . Commercial are dorced under threat of fines and closure.

Home bakers do not have to show sales therefore avoid tax. Commercial can not

Home bakers have 0  orvery  low overhead . Commercial has many expenses

Home bakers carry no product liability insurance. Commercial does

You evaluate the differences.

I understand all the expenses invovled in  baking or food business which is also one reason why I won't  do it,  besides that,  I want my week-ends to myself and not having to bake or decorate a cake at 2:00 AM in the morning.  Kudos to those who do baking or food as a  business.  I admire you.  I watch "Restaurant Impossible"  or "Kitchen Nightmares" and I have seen those restaurants that are extremely dirty and very old or spoiled food in the fridge,  although not all commercial kitchens are like that,  but it makes me wonder how  they got away with such dirty kitchens and old food.. 

I have also read in the news occasionally  how some food places get in trouble for serving "green" chicken (KFC last week's news);  workers spit in people's drink (also last weeks news);  rats or roaches in the kitchen running around;  and how two workers in upstate NY were using frozen burger patties as a skate board but served them;   some workers took a bath in the big kitchen sink in a chicken place... I'm sure this does not happen everywhere and some are isolated incidents,  but how do customers know that ?

I wonder if there are more of these kitchens out there..  not just fast food ,  but any other commercial kitchens.

I think what drives customers to home bakers (legal or illegal) is price.  I know there are some home-based bakers who are producing beautiful work and some who are not.  But when customers are looking for the least expensive option, they start looking underground and that is what drives the illegal bakers/caterers.  All of the costs are different, and my product will always cost more than someone who is not paying rent, insurance, salaries, taxes, etc.  A home based baker has limited space and capacity for volume, so there's only so much work they can take on to begin with.

The cleanliness of the kitchen isn't the issue; there will always be levels of cleanliness in any kitchen (commercial or residential).  In a legal kitchen, there is someone whose job it is to enforce the regulations of cleanliness and preparation; in an illegal kitchen there is no regulation, no inspection, nothing.  You can become ill from food prepared in either kitchen; regardless of whether someone gave you the cake for free or you paid a lot or a little.   The cleanliness issue is specious to the root cause of the problem: bakers who operate from home have lower overhead than a commercial bakery.  People looking for a bargain will always find a way to pay less - it may be because of the economic circumstances (like unemployment) or because price is the most important part to them. 

What irks me is how people who "do cakes" on weekends, as a hobby compare themselves to professional bakers and pastry chefs.  I'm not talking about people who once worked in a commercial kitchen and now do things at home because they are retired or changed fields; I'm talking about people who try to pass themselves off as pros because they took a Wilton class at the local hobby store. I know that there are passionate amateurs who bake a lot, or decorate a lot and I don't think they would rank themselves as pros; that's not who I'm talking about.

I have never taken a Wiltons Class in Cake Decorating because I do not like Wiltons style.  Sorry if people like me irks you.  But that is not stoppng me from doing what I love doing best.

A lot of people started cooking and baking at home as a hobby then moved on to start a business w/ out a title of "Chef"  ...

Colette Peters;  Martha Stewart;  Margaret Braun; Marina Sousa,  Mary Maher (Cake Girls in Chicago), Fay Shanholtzer; Kathy Scott; Ruth Rickey; Lourdes Reyes; Cecilia Morana; Nancy Linstead; Kathleen Lange  and many more..  They started doing what they love doing best from home then later started a business.  But they are recognized because of their talents and NOT because of a  title .. Even Ron Ben Israel started baking for his mother.. I know SOME people have the passion but not the talent to go with the passion.

I have a God given  talent which I do not plan on using as a business but I will share it with people when I want to.  Why can't baking talents be shared w/ out making money ?  I can afford to give away what I create.  I do not have to worry whether I made enough sales this month to pay the lease or someone's salary.    But as I have said,  I admire you people who bake or cook for a living.  I know how much work that is.  Kudos to all of you..

Florida is pretty easy on the law. As long as you don't make more than $15,000 a year outta your house you can cook from it. You can't sell it online but at farmers markets and such its fine. I see them all the time there lots of cupcakes places, breads pastry etc.

Not altogether correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prettycake 

I have never taken a Wiltons Class in Cake Decorating because I do not like Wiltons style.  Sorry if people like me irks you.  But that is not stoppng me from doing what I love doing best.

 

A lot of people started cooking and baking at home as a hobby then moved on to start a business w/ out a title of "Chef"  ...

 

Colette Peters;  Martha Stewart;  Margaret Braun; Marina Sousa,  Mary Maher (Cake Girls in Chicago), Fay Shanholtzer; Kathy Scott; Ruth Rickey; Lourdes Reyes; Cecilia Morana; Nancy Linstead; Kathleen Lange  and many more..  They started doing what they love doing best from home then later started a business.  But they are recognized because of their talents and NOT because of a  title .. Even Ron Ben Israel started baking for his mother.. I know SOME people have the passion but not the talent to go with the passion.

 

I have a God given  talent which I do not plan on using as a business but I will share it with people when I want to.  Why can't baking talents be shared w/ out making money ?  I can afford to give away what I create.  I do not have to worry whether I made enough sales this month to pay the lease or someone's salary.    But as I have said,  I admire you people who bake or cook for a living.  I know how much work that is.  Kudos to all of you..

What I object to are people who have taken a decorating class like the Wilton hobby classes and then use the title "pastry chef" or "professional" and this class is their only training.  Being a professional means that you are following an occupation for gain or your livelihood. It may be that you go through a pastry school program, or earn a culinary college degree (e.g. CIA or J&W) or you have years of experience because you are doing it full time and go through the ranks of cook in a professional kitchen. 

The title of chef - and professional -  is so diluted by casual use, it has lost its true meaning. People who haven't earned it, use the title when they shouldn't.  I don't think you're in the category of people the original poster is talking about - you aren't running a business out of your home illegally.

Ohio does not define eggs used in a baked product as hazardous.  From the Ohio Department of Agriculture (which oversees both Cottage Industry and Home Bakeries)  "Potentially hazardous food means it requires temperature control because it is in a form capable of supporting the rapid and progressive growth of infectious or toxigenic microorganisms (Ex. Raw or cooked animal products, cooked vegetables, garlic in oil, cheese cakes, pumpkin pies, custard pies, cream pies, etc.)."  A cottage industry may not produce items which need refrigeration or which are to be sold over state lines and must have the phrase  "This Product is Home Produced on the label.  A Home Bakery license currently costs $10/year and requires an inspection of the home kitchen by the Ohio Department of Agriculture.  The Home Bakery may produce items which require refrigeration, are sold across state lines and the home may not have pets in it or carpeting in the kitchen.     

Don't worry about what the home bakers are doing; concentrate on your own business.  If you haven't done a competitive analysis lately, you may want to do this.  You may also want to make your deposit non-refundable so you don't get left holding the bag.  The whole point of a deposit is a good faith sign of commitment in the first place.

I am with you on that pastry cake

goodness... what a conversation on here!   it concerns me though and is kind of detouring me to think of something else now.  I have been baking since i was 3 yrs old with my grandma. it has always been a hobby, a destressor.  sometimes i go weeks baking all day every day and sometimes i can go just as many weeks not baking a single thing.  I have owned a cleaning business, residential, very successful for many yrs.  i'm getting ready to hang up that hat because my body can't take the abuse of cleaning houses anymore.  after 6 months of thought processes on what i can do that i am passionate about, i decided to get into baking and pastry making on a professional level.  why?  aside from cleaning, it is the only thing i love to do as much as i do. i don't like eating most of what i make, i don't have a sweet tooth, but i love making things anyway for others to enjoy.  I am starting culinary classes next month to get my diploma in baking and pastry.  one of the reasons i decided to do this is because it is still something i can do from home.  i have health problems, i have a special needs teenager at home with me.  I need to work from home, be able to control my own schedule etc.   yes my state has the cottage law. and yes, i would absolutely jump through all the hoops to have my business as legit as any other. 

I have to say, after reading all this, i may have to refrain from entering the art institute now and figure something else out to provide for my family from home.  i have worked with many chefs in my time, in 5 star hotels at that.  and i have never heard any of them talk about others like this.  in todays day and age, home based businesses are becoming more and more common.  i can get on disability, but, as long as i can still function enough to provide for my family and work, i will do so instead of living off of the government. now i am feeling like, even though i want to provide for my family and do something i have an immense passion for, i shouldn't do it because "real" bakers etc are offended in some way because not everyone can afford that corner shop and have circumstances that cause them to have to work from home or have schedules that most employements would not play around with.  so.. now.. off i go to spend the next 6 months rethinking on what i should do.  thank you for the enlightenment of this conversation. it really opened up my eyes about a lot of things.. :)

What is an illegal baker? Is this someone that buys lots of flour to hid their large purchases of baking soda? I assume this is a taxation and not a butt-hurt issue (which is probably not true). In the age of outsourcing in every sense; one most simply do the following: supply a product and/or service that is highly superior at a reasonable price or a product and/or service that is the cheapest. A loss for integrity is never a loss, but do not confuse this with compromise in your product to keep up.  

JoyB40,

As long as your state has a "cottage law" and there are no local zoning restriictions and the health department and fire department approve, you're not an "illegal baker", IMHO.
 

To answer rolling legumes

An "illegal baker" is someone who bakes out of thier home as a side business or even a f/t  business.  "Business" is the operative word here, not making a cake for Grandma or cousin Sue's B day.  The business is not inspected, nor does it pay the taxes and overhead a legitimate bakery would, it may or may not adhere to proper sanitation procedures, proper storage of ingredients, adhere to health codes, plumbing codes (plugged up sanitary lines...)fire codes, or electrical codes. Pets (hair, feces, urine, and licking the bowl while no one is looking) may be present in the production area.  In the event of a serious food poisoning outbreak an illegal baker can not be found.

Hope this helps

To play devils advocate: is there a great problem with food poisoning with "illegal bakers"? Would fire or electrical code violations pose a threat to the consumer? Is there a prevalence of fires deaths and destruction of property associated with "illegal bakers"? Can you taste the feces (beyond FDA allowable limits) in these products? I too have a problem with clandestine mixed used use real-estate that would provide a household bakery and a petting zoo. As much as I like wild life; exotic birds could cause the greatest problems (as they can fly and have no bowel control) while uncaged reptiles would cause the least annoyance (especially iguanas as they generally add ambiance and reduce flying insects). If allowed why would you not want to lick the bowl if nothing else afterwards? You know I'm all about about taxation, I even add up my internet purchases (as an individual) and pay that tax at the end of the year as I am required by IRS. Would you not find this illegal baker at their residence where they are making the cakes? This seems easier than tracking down an owner of of an legitimate establishment with a phoney home address. 

Yes, they pay little or no over head and this seems why they are the topic of conversation.

Home bakeries do have a higher rate of fires, and sanitary/storm sewer blockages.  Home bakeries do not issue out receipts, therefore there is no trace of a transaction from the seller or the buyer--nothing for the  tax man to grasp at.  If and when any problem arises, the home bakery is gone--no proof that it ever was a home bakery, while a business always leaves a paper trail.

The fact that they pay no overhead is indeed the basis of this thread.  Ingredients may be purchased within the same ranges as legit bakeries, but no overhead means that the home bakery charges less for the product, which puts them at an unfair advantage over the legit baker.  This almost always upsets the pricing structure and leaves the legit baker out.  True, a good and honest legit baker does not compare thier quality to Costco/Safeway, and because of this can charge a fair price, (which should reflect the quality of ingredients and workmanship) but when compared to the home baker is usually 20-50% more expensive, plus the tax. 

In order to play fair, the playing field needs to be level, and it can't be when one pays commercial rent, insurance, property taxes, licenceing fees, minimum wages and above, packaging, visa fees, and taxes, and the other doesn't  

Hope this helps

Quote:

Originally Posted by foodpump 

Home bakeries do have a higher rate of fires, and sanitary/storm sewer blockages.  Home bakeries do not issue out receipts, therefore there is no trace of a transaction from the seller or the buyer--nothing for the  tax man to grasp at.  If and when any problem arises, the home bakery is gone--no proof that it ever was a home bakery, while a business always leaves a paper trail.

 

The fact that they pay no overhead is indeed the basis of this thread.  Ingredients may be purchased within the same ranges as legit bakeries, but no overhead means that the home bakery charges less for the product, which puts them at an unfair advantage over the legit baker.  This almost always upsets the pricing structure and leaves the legit baker out.  True, a good and honest legit baker does not compare thier quality to Costco/Safeway, and because of this can charge a fair price, (which should reflect the quality of ingredients and workmanship) but when compared to the home baker is usually 20-50% more expensive, plus the tax. 

 

In order to play fair, the playing field needs to be level, and it can't be when one pays commercial rent, insurance, property taxes, licenceing fees, minimum wages and above, packaging, visa fees, and taxes, and the other doesn't  

 

Hope this helps

ok, now i am really missing the basis of this or something is getting confused into my own translation.  i understand there are underhanded "business" owners out there. but, i find it highly unfair to lump all home bakers the same. i know plenty of home bakers that DO pay their taxes, they DO have receipts for every single sale they make, they DO pay for insurnce, property taxes on their own home, keep things sanitary, one even went as far as to remodel their basement into a commercial kitchen/storage area where their dogs were not allowed to be. they DO pay their fees and visa fees and packaging and what ever else.  

this is how i plan to run my own bakery, just as legit as anyone other baker out there, except i won't have the glorified commercial building right off the bat.  life is not fair in any direction you go.  you will have your brick and mortar businesses and you will have your e-commerce businesses now and home businesses... as long as the law allows it, it will be done.  for 10 yrs i have owned a cleaning business.  i do not work from a brick and mortar.. i run  my business from my house.  yes, i am cheaper than a brick and mortar company, but, there is plenty of business out there for everyone. 

i guess i am just not understanding why there is a fuss.. ok, i DO understand when they are operating in an illegal state/zone.. yes, i get the fuss then.. but, when it is legal in that area and zoned.. what is the fuss?  i have been sitting here for the last 24 hours or so really thinking hard about this and weighing it out etc.. and ya'll make me feel like i am nothing unless i have that brick and mortar.. which, i was wanting some day, but, with a special needs child still at home, i need to start from  home.  now.. i am 75% sure i will give up this dream and probably give up baking period.  this has left a sour taste in me.  this makes me sad.   i'm a home based business and i pay all my taxes, i pay for a cpa, i pay my insurances, bonding, employees, benefits, vehicles etc.. i pay out just as much as a brick and mortar except i do not have to pay a 3000.00 mortgage.. seems smart to me.. but, i apparently not because it is unfair to those that run out of a wharehouse or something.. it is petty.. 

as long as the person is running their business properly, it should not matter where they do it from. it really shouldn't. you will find people who are cheaper than others.. being competitive and undercutting.. thats the way of the business world. if we all cost the same.. why would there be so many of the same businesses in one town?  it would be pointless.  

If you're inspected and licensed, then fair enough, I've got no problems.  It also tells me you have invested serious time, effort, and money into upgrading your infrastructure and you are serious about your business.  This I can respect.

If you are not, (inspected and licensed) then you are fair game for revenge.  I have done this to three home based (illegal) "catering companies".  They were stupid enough to blanket-bomb the neighborhood with flyers and undercut my business by as much as 40%.  I called the health dept. on them, and they were promptly shut down--with a long list of "things to improve" if they wanted to apply for a business license.  They didn't......