or Connect
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Pastries & Baking › Getting Fed Up with ILLEGAL home bakers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Getting Fed Up with ILLEGAL home bakers - Page 3

post #61 of 82

I think the original poster was discussing the fact that an "illegal" home baker does not go through the same hoops as a "legal" baker (home based or otherwise).  There will always be those who "do cakes" out of their home - if they are licensed and subject to the same rules and regulations as a brick-and-mortar bakery, I don't think it makes much difference.  A home baker will always have limitations in terms of volume (I have the space to do 12 weddings in a weekend, most home bakers don't) and there will always be customers who are looking for the lowest price.  It's the people who don't get the right permits, licensing, training and are flying under the radar that are the problem.

post #62 of 82

I noticed you are in Dallas, TX. Here is the information on the Texas Cottage Food Law, which was passed. 

 

http://www.texascottagefoodlaw.com/

 

It is not illegal for home bakers to sell out of their homes in Texas. I operate a cake business out of my home. I have a Food Manufacturers Licence through the State of Texas, registered my business through the county, have a state tax ID and follow all the guidelines of the Texas Cottage Food Law. I'm sure there are some at home bakers out there who do not follow the guidelines, but I follow them.  My business and operations are legal. I can understand the frustrations of at home bakers taking away some of your business, but everyone has to start somewhere and if it ends up being at home, and it's legal, then there is nothing wrong with it. At home bakers also cannot do the sheer volume compared to a Bakery. I refer all my clients to local bakeries if my schedule is booked for the date my client needs. Supporting the local home bakers might be a good thing in your situation, because if they knew you supported them, they might send you some business. Bashing other people's businesses is not a good way to have supporters. 

post #63 of 82

JoyB40 don't you dare let people in an online discussion forum crush your dream! If you want to pursue baking, and doing it from your home, then go for it! Who cares if you offend some anonymous people you'll never meet?

post #64 of 82

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-governor-signs-home-bakery-act-into-law/article/3786724

 

It will soon be legal to bake from home in Oklahoma. I'm pumped, as I'm an at-home baker.

post #65 of 82

I'm not trying to take sides, but I wonder how that would work on your tax forms.  Would that be considered a home office deduction?

post #66 of 82

Panini, After reading your original post is sounds like you are not doing much to market your product.  You are doing everything the correct way and it seems these illegals are doing better nut because of pricing but because they are going where the people are.  It is hard to compete with someone who has a friend or relative that can do the same thing for free or cost, but I gather we are not discussing that avenue here.  Controling costs are hard enough when prices are going up and profits are going down, but getting your product out there is how you attract business.  These crooks seem to be willing to market themselves and sounds like some are doing it in a shady kinda way but you need to look at getting your name in front of larger audiaences.

post #67 of 82
My sister has a small bakery in her home and is licensed. Her husband is a chemical engineer and he was able to do everything label wise and pass the inspections for their home. It's actually very professional. She has almost everything most small brick and mortar bakeries have. She's become very popular and has even had a couple famous clients. She is under the Ohio laws. She sells specialty.decorated cookies that most bakeries cannot do. She makes a good living off of it and is completely honest ,clean, and legal
post #68 of 82
You fall under small business laws.- this was in response to kuan... sorry I tried to quote but my phone is just useless on this forum.j
post #69 of 82

Well I understand your thoughts but there are alot of people out there who are fantastic bakers who can't afford to open up a bakery.  I know california is passing the law allowing this to happen.  I am all for it.  I have the experience in the baking and don't understand what the problem is.  If your a good baker and have a fantastic reputation then you shouldn't feel bad if people opt to try other ways, most likely they will come back to you.  If your prices are high because of your reputation then you will loose business.  In this economy right now people are trying to feed their families.  And yes you need to run your business also, but if it keeps people from getting federal aid and able to start a small business I am all for it.  I think alot of bakeries over charge their supplies and yes I have sold many cakes and know that we can cut our prices by a small amount.

post #70 of 82

Ummmm........ Sweetie?

 

Try running a legit business.

 

-Negotiate a lease

-Pay the monthly rent--anywhere from $2,000 to $8,000/mth depending on size and location

-Pay the licensing fees, the yearly inspection fees

-Purchase NSF/UL listed commercial equipment

-Pay for staffing costs

-Pay for utilities (remember that businesses pay for garbage pick up, unlike private homes)

-Pay for at least 3 forms of advertising (trade shows, school/church connections)

 

Legit businesses have a tremendous amount of overhead, home based ones don't

Please don't compare apples to oranges, you'll only look like an eejit...........

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #71 of 82

BTW, the California cottage law limits the amount of gross income for home based preparation of non-PHF products and prohibits preparation of PHF products. I believe the limit is in the neighborhood of $35k-$50k GROSS! Subtract the food costs and some licensing, insurance, and increased utilities, and one might possibly net $25k-$30k annually, roughly equivalent to a $12-$15/hour regular job without the headaches of running your own business. Oh, remember, no employees other than family members.
 

AND, you do have to be located in a qualifying zone, i.e. no multi-family structures, and meet the health standards.

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
Reply
post #72 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post

Ummmm........ Sweetie?

 

Try running a legit business.

 

-Negotiate a lease

-Pay the monthly rent--anywhere from $2,000 to $8,000/mth depending on size and location

-Pay the licensing fees, the yearly inspection fees

-Purchase NSF/UL listed commercial equipment

-Pay for staffing costs

-Pay for utilities (remember that businesses pay for garbage pick up, unlike private homes)

-Pay for at least 3 forms of advertising (trade shows, school/church connections)

 

Legit businesses have a tremendous amount of overhead, home based ones don't

Please don't compare apples to oranges, you'll only look like an eejit...........

A (legal) home based business has to deal with:

 

No-shows and flaky customers who don't feel like paying for the product made.

They have to run their business out of their home, which means they are at work all the time. No nice little pastry shop to dissapear to.

A fierce competition for the little bit of money out there

INSANE hours because they don't have to pay for staffing costs. (They can't afford staff see... and the BOSS is a hard-ass)

Baking with conventional home ovens because they don't have the equipment like a pastry shop would

 

They do have to pay for utilities, and on a MUCH higher scale than a business would have to. (I am comparing apples to apples. If you look at the percentage for their utilities to power their oven/stovetop/lights and compare that to a bakery that has a MUCH higher square footage.)

A home doesn't pay for garbage pickup because-let's face it-there just isn't enough garbage to warrant a separate charge. If the garbage becomes an issue, you best bet that extra charges are levied against the homeowner. That, and the garbage pickup is part of property tax in a lot of places.

They pay higher costs for ingredients, equipment, and advertising because they are NOT a business with buying power. They buy the produce for at lest 40% of what you would because they don't have a contract with a supplier.

 

 

I'm just speaking about legit businesses. Home based business is legit, as long as your state/province laws allow for the production. In most cases it is a case of checking with the zoning laws.

 

AS to the OP... Do you think that you are the only industry to be affected by this? (Home based catering, bakers, wedding planners, etc.) Look at graphic designers, web programmers, nutritionists.  If you are losing out on your target market, you are not doing enough. Sitting back and bitching about it is not the way to win this war. Legislation won't win this war for you. If people are going elsewhere, you are looking at the wrong demographic. 

 

The right people will pay to have quality. If that is what you offer, then go out there and sell your product. How many aunts out there will realistically make a wedding cake, much less one that will be remembered? How is this seriously cutting into your business?

 

Why are you giving your designs out? 

Jason Sandeman

Real Food Through Solid Technique
Reply
Jason Sandeman

Real Food Through Solid Technique
Reply
post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by welldonechef View Post

A (legal) home based business has to deal with:

 

No-shows and flaky customers who don't feel like paying for the product made.

They have to run their business out of their home, which means they are at work all the time. No nice little pastry shop to dissapear to.

A fierce competition for the little bit of money out there

INSANE hours because they don't have to pay for staffing costs. (They can't afford staff see... and the BOSS is a hard-ass)

Baking with conventional home ovens because they don't have the equipment like a pastry shop would

 

They do have to pay for utilities, and on a MUCH higher scale than a business would have to. (I am comparing apples to apples. If you look at the percentage for their utilities to power their oven/stovetop/lights and compare that to a bakery that has a MUCH higher square footage.)

A home doesn't pay for garbage pickup because-let's face it-there just isn't enough garbage to warrant a separate charge. If the garbage becomes an issue, you best bet that extra charges are levied against the homeowner. That, and the garbage pickup is part of property tax in a lot of places.

They pay higher costs for ingredients, equipment, and advertising because they are NOT a business with buying power. They buy the produce for at lest 40% of what you would because they don't have a contract with a supplier.

 

 

I'm just speaking about legit businesses. Home based business is legit, as long as your state/province laws allow for the production. In most cases it is a case of checking with the zoning laws.

 

AS to the OP... Do you think that you are the only industry to be affected by this? (Home based catering, bakers, wedding planners, etc.) Look at graphic designers, web programmers, nutritionists.  If you are losing out on your target market, you are not doing enough. Sitting back and bitching about it is not the way to win this war. Legislation won't win this war for you. If people are going elsewhere, you are looking at the wrong demographic. 

 

The right people will pay to have quality. If that is what you offer, then go out there and sell your product. How many aunts out there will realistically make a wedding cake, much less one that will be remembered? How is this seriously cutting into your business?

 

Why are you giving your designs out? 

 

Gee you guys are scaring the **** outta me.

 

Firstly I will say this: I agree that if people are baking from home illegally in the US (and I bet some do in the UK too) and it takes business from legit companies that would be a problem, for all the reasons others have stated above.

 

You're scaring me because I can't afford to open a bakery. However I really want to start my own business selling the stuff I make now anyway and give away to family/friends/work colleagues for nothing (because I love making it). My compromise is to dip my toe in the water first, see how it goes and keep the day job at the same time. I am planning on opening a home based bakery for cakes, muffins, biscuits, cupcakes etc. and my local farm shop has told me they will happily sell them. They like supporting local businesses. It will be totally legal and above board, I will have my insurance, H&S Food training (already done it) and hygiene certificate from my local council once they've inspected my home. I really don't see a problem with me doing this. I won’t be in competition with big bakeries in the nearest town (about 9 miles away) as I'll be nowhere near their level, and like welldonechef said, I am just one person. It's not the same at all. I won’t have the cooker for huge orders, and will be working at the same time so that will limit what I can do. I will (and already do) have top of the range equipment, but that’s for home baking not on an industrial scale. I might not be paying rent/staff/utilities but I WILL be paying a large mortgage, normal household bills and utility bills which would increase, the upkeep and renewal of my cooking utilities, advertising, website costs, ingredients at shop prices as I probably wont be able to buy in bulk and I fully expect not to see my husband much whilst I try to hold down a full time job (up at 5am, leaving home 6am, getting home 7:45pm earliest) and then doing this on the side evenings and weekends to try and get something going.

 

I thought it was the perfect way to try this out, and if it takes off I’ll look at giving up my job and doing this full time on proper premises. Some of the animosity on here is quite alarming. Some people, who are legit, are just trying to keep their head above water and bring in extra income whilst doing something they are good at. I know that's part of the reason why I'll be doing this.

Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness

AUGUSTE ESCOFFIER

Ravioli
(5 photos)
  
Reply

Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness

AUGUSTE ESCOFFIER

Ravioli
(5 photos)
  
Reply
post #74 of 82
There has always been a tradition here in the UK for home bakers charging for things like wedding and birthday cakes.

Trying to compare us and the USA in this context is just a waste of time.

I've made special occasion cakes for friends (free of charge or for the cost of ingredients) loads of times. Also for school cake sales. I know the EU were trying to stop that, but common senseseems to have prevailed.

I don't really detect any animosity, just professionals making their views known.

Go ahead with your plans! After all, you'll never be in direct competition with the likes of Choccywoccydoodah for ages yet:D
post #75 of 82

Whoa!

 

You don't think legit businesses have to deal with flaky customers who don't want to pay??

 

You don't think we work crazy insane hours?  Work our tails off so we can find enough work for our employees so they don't walk off ?

 

Put it like this:

 

Say you're an olympic athelete, doing the hurdles.  Guy next to you in the race is running around the hurdles, and he's telling you: "Watchya complaining about? It's ok, the race officials said I could."

 

A legit business has incredible overhead to pay, a home based one doesn't. 

 

Apples and oranges.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishbel View Post

There has always been a tradition here in the UK for home bakers charging for things like wedding and birthday cakes.

Trying to compare us and the USA in this context is just a waste of time.

I've made special occasion cakes for friends (free of charge or for the cost of ingredients) loads of times. Also for school cake sales. I know the EU were trying to stop that, but common senseseems to have prevailed.

I don't really detect any animosity, just professionals making their views known.

Go ahead with your plans! After all, you'll never be in direct competition with the likes of Choccywoccydoodah for ages yet:D

 

I think they're pretty safe lol.gif

Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness

AUGUSTE ESCOFFIER

Ravioli
(5 photos)
  
Reply

Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness

AUGUSTE ESCOFFIER

Ravioli
(5 photos)
  
Reply
post #77 of 82

Hello Panini,

I myself bake for my friends and family, sometimes for money and sometimes for nothing. I do it because it is fun and makes  me happy. I'm not doing it to try to get "professional" bakers mad. I will admit my stuff doesn't always look that good, but I'm learning. I am getting a portfolio started. I eventually want to work at a cake decorating shop or shop n' save, but I like the job I have right now. If people come to me wishing to purchase why would I turn them down?  I am a bit conceded about what I do. The stuff I make looks darn good 95% of the time, and that is why people buy things from me. That is probably why they buy from a lot of other home bakers too. We all aren't in it for the money. Home bakers charge less because we love what we do and it isn't all about money like professional bakers. Professional bakers charge a fee for everything. No one has the money to spend thousands of dollars on cakes. Its much easier to go to your niece or friends child for a cake than go to an actual place. derp. that is all~~~~

post #78 of 82

I'm confused.  Are you a home baker hoping to someday work at a supermarket grocery bakery or cake shop?  What I'd suggest is you learn the basics while someone is paying you. Get that job  now, even if it is part time.  You'll learn a huge amount about production and if your stuff "doesn't always look that good" that will help tremendously.  Learn the ropes at a place that can teach you good work habits. As well as what it takes to run a business, which will help you understand what professional bakers go through and why pricing is the way it is.

 

Professional bakers love what they do just as much as home bakers - the difference is that professional bakers need to make a living at it, while home bakers usually have another job that subsidizes their baking.  

post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by herpderp View Post
 Professional bakers charge a fee for everything. No one has the money to spend thousands of dollars on cakes.

 

Sigh.......

You're not listening, are you?  Of course Professionals charge a fee, they have to pay staff, a good baker needs to be paid more than minimum wage, and professionals have to pay for overhead:  Rent, utilities, equipment, insurance, etc. If you're getting charged "thousands of dollars" for a cake, there must be a lot of time invested in that cake.  Again, what is minimum wage in your area and multiply that with the hours invested in a cake, add in overhead and ingredients.

 

Let me put it to you another way, what do you do for a living?

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #80 of 82

I am sitting on both sides of the fence here.  Cottage industry food production/sales is as old as mankind.  I feel that .gov has WAY too much control of our lives in the first place.  If I make a gallon of hot sauce, or bake cookies and sell them, the government has no business poking their nose in.

In Florida, you used to be able to harvest game animals, wild hogs or deer for example, and donate the meat to a worthy recipient.  Hunters would provide meat to schools, jails and prisons, and to help the needy.

A law was passed that makes the donor have a Veterinarian or health inspector check the carcass before it is donated.  The donor has to pay for the inspection.  Guess how many harvested animals are donated now?  'bout Zero.....

 

Having owned and operated restaurants and food product manufacturing for many years, I sympathize also with folks trying to earn an honest living that way.  My son operates a business making organic Tempeh.  Fairly good sized operation.  Manufacture, sales, and distribution.

We have spent tons of money on inspections, code updates, buying from certified soy bean distributers, working with Chefs and purchasing agents, having our product inspected by the State, as well as independent labs to insure that the products are safe and good.

Yeah, when I hear someone in town is 'home making' the same product, and selling it to my customers or potential customers, I get a bit hot.  There is one in particular, that flies under the radar, no inspections, no insurance, no regard for sanitation.  He makes a lot of money, selling dirt cheap, while my lad and I pay big bucks to stay legal.

It's a problem, but I am not sure that more government is the answer. The customer that will trade off quality of product for a cheaper price,  will find a way to skirt most regulations.  When I present our vastly superior product to those using the cheap, undocumented product, they always admit that our product is superior.  That does not mean they always switch to us. 

post #81 of 82

"If I make a gallon of hot sauce, or bake cookies and sell them, the government has no business poking their nose in."

 

Couldn't agree more. 

post #82 of 82

Love the attitude!

 

Now, if you were making gallons of hot sauce or cookies and giving them away, yes. Gov't has no right poking their noses in.

 

When you Sell something, they (Gov't, any form, be it municipal, State or Fed.) have the right to take their cut (taxes)  and to inspect premises. 

 

When you cook/bake for other people, you have the power to make a pleasant dining experience, a so-so one, or to maim or even kill someone.

 

Don't forget this fact......

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Pastries & Baking
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Cooking Discussions › Pastries & Baking › Getting Fed Up with ILLEGAL home bakers