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Even more confused than before.....

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 

Hi again, i started a topic a few days ago asking advice about getting a knife, after several replies and reading a lot on this and other forums....well...I am more confused tha before.

I will tell you a little bit more about myself, I cook at home, almost every day and weekends, I started culinary school but the knife will be used at home. I wont be using it several hours a day, so I can adapt to the knife id neccesary.
I own a few Wusthof Classic Ikon knives (8" chef, 4" paring and 6" sandwich) which I take care a lot. After every use, I clean them and put them away.

Now, the japanese knife I am looking for must be a good knife that will last me a lifetime but also must beautifull, I must admit that was one of the reason that I bought the whustof ikon's beside having good reviews of course.

Also I dont have skills using the stones to sharp the knives, I was thinking of getting a sharpmaker to begin.

My budget is under $200, but if it really justifies I can go a little above that.

This is a list of the knives I have seen:

- Hiromoto AS (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Te...akuSeries.html)
- Fujiwara FKM (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmgy21.html)
- Masamoto VG (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/VG...EIGHT:%20181px)
- Tojiro DP (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html)
- Tohigaru Moly (http://korin.com/Shop/Togiharu-Molybdenum)
- Misono UX10 (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/mi.html) I liked this one a lot but I must find a really good reason to expend this kind of money.

Thanks everyone for their time and comments

post #2 of 8

Hi Guga,

I know the feeling :)

I started looking around for a new knife some months ago and there are just so many options and possibilities there!

With the help of some of the people on this forum, I finally managed to make up my mind and I went for a Fujiwara FKH petty and the JCK CarboNext chef's knife (none of them are on your list though).

I like them, but have no idea how I would have liked the other knives

 

What I noticed most was that people that started looking at around the same time ended up making total different choices!

 

I think the first decission you have to make is about the material. VG10, stainless, carbon steel etc....

 

LennyD's thread is a good one to read (called something like "Tojiro good choice for beginners?"). Lots of info in it. 

I' not sure how to link to it.

Some of my old threads contain useful info as well.

 

I'm quite sure the knife fundi's will come accross your post shortly and give you a lot more help!

Life is too short to drink bad wine
---Anonymus---

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Life is too short to drink bad wine
---Anonymus---

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post #3 of 8

Wish I could help you more but in the end it's kind of personal.  What works for one person might not work for the next.  Most knife enthusiasts poo-poo Global now, but I am very happy with the several Globals I own.  Even the old standbys -- Wusthof and Henckels -- work just fine for me, though I have started to sharpen Japanese knives also.  The only knives I own from your list is a couple of Tojiros and one Misono slicer, and I am very happy with those too.  The Tojiro DP steel is a good notch harder than Global and Wusthof/Henckels, and the blade is very thin despite the clad construction, so they are very good cutters.  The Misono I have is a Swedish steel slicer (sujihiki).  It's a little more whippy than I expected, but not so much that it's not manageable.  I also find it much less reactive than most non-stainless steels I've handled.  Just the same though, I think for that kind of money you can probably do better (I bought it before the current round of price increases).

 

I guess in the end what I am really trying to say is that I believe that these are all very good knives and you would be best off making a selection based on personal preferences rather than some arbitrary numerical attribute or what someone else told you.  And if you're using it at home, theft won't be as much of an issue, so you can also get damascus if you want (though my position on maintaining the damascuss appearance stands -- I have one such knife and find trying not to scrape it up a huge pain).


Edited by Capsaicin - 4/13/11 at 5:10pm
post #4 of 8

Here is a link to the thread that was my attempt to gain some insight into the world of J knives, and ended pushing many members patience while on my journey :)

 

http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-gyuto-a-good-budget-entry-level-intro-to-japanese-knives

 

Guga I know my reply to your other thread was not the most detailed, and hope this post helps a bit more.

 

It looks like we newbies are kind of helping each other a bit while the really experienced members are attending to having a life outside of here or something :) but not to worry as I found a lot of good info from others who were new to this while on my initial quest as well.

 

Keep in mind that one of my real needs was value, and I read that to mean performance in relation to price. Performance will include things like cutting ability, edge holding, sharpening ease, F&F, feel balance etc etc etc, but keep in mind that the value of some of these will be very different to a home cook, experienced home cook, and a professional putting in 14 hour days. Looks and "cool appeal" are always a factor, but hold less weight when comparing value so some of the higher cost knives were desired choices that did not make my short list.

 

Even though not all of your listed items was on my short list most all I had checked out to some point while making initial choices etc. I do not think there is a "Bad" one in your list and all should out perform your current collection. In my case I actually sold off all my Germans after spending a short time testing out a $49 Tojiro DP Gyuto, so yes even the low end is that impressive plus it helped to offset the cost of the total purchase.

 

The ones that were eliminated were mostly due to cost.  Sure I can understand there has got to be a difference between a $200 Misono or Massomoto etc and a sub $100 Tojiro or Fujiwara, but just what was I getting for that difference and how much worth would it have for a home cook (no matter how experienced lol). Again I was not so much interested in the wow or cool factor as much as performance and value.

 

Actually I am still progressing in finding just what the differences between the low and mid range priced knives is, and you should be seeing a new thread soon discussing my next purchase(s) to allow me to finally evaluate. I really wanted to get a good feel for the knives I have now before investing in a more expensive one so that I could make a good comparison and help myself to decide on what I would like to have in the end. It is actually very interesting, but also fun as well.

 

 

 

Now with all that said lets consider that all of these brands no matter the price are serious tools. Tools that are as much different as they are similar to their quality western counterparts. I like to use the term tool since even though many of us are home cooks many others are professionals or like yourself training to become a professional chef and these are the tools used. So not much unlike a carpenter or a surgeon for that matter the trade requires certain tools, and I think everyone would agree a quality tool is a true benefit. I also think that there is a point where quality and performance start to get fuzzy between manufacturers and once at that quality level bells and whistles or the cool factor hold more weight for buyers.

 

I had more than once thought of Tim the tool man grunting about with his new cordless whatever when reading the reviews on many knives. Funny and in a strange way entertaining, but just my odd sense of humor aside just like a $100 drill makes holes in similar fashion as the $350 one the same goes for cutting tools as well.

 

 

The purpose of this is to make you aware that a pretty knife or more expensive knife will not really make you cut any better than a less pretty one etc. (all being even in sharpness and right choice for job at hand).

 

Being I am still on my journey to finding proper knife harmony :)  I admit that I can not wait to be able to compare the performance of the higher end and cost product as the lower end is seriously that impressive over my old Germans. I can not even imagine that the performance can possibly increase in same fashion as the price will (the very thought blows my mind lol) but am so curious that it is a must do, and I can not wait to I can put the funds together to make my next purchase.

 

 

 

Something I have noticed with most all of the reviews from new J knife owners is that no matter the brand they most all seem to be happy, amazed with the increased performance, and immediate converts too.

 

Just look at the two previous posters who have very different knives and all very happy with them. I also am very happy as well, and though I can only compare two of those from your list being the Tojiro DP, and Fujiwara FKM I can tell you they are both fine choices, and also very different (as I suspect so are the others you list as well).

 

There is more in the other thread but basically the Tojiro DP blade steel is harder, gets very sharp, stays sharp a bit longer, and takes a bit longer to sharpen while the Fujiwara blade steel is a little softer, has a bit better F&F, feel, balance, gets very sharp, sharpens a bit easier, and needs to be sharpened a bit sooner. The VG10 in the Tojiro has really turned me into a fan of the steel, and though I know from reading reviews that there are better steels avail etc I have to imagine the higher end knives in VG10 must be a pleasure to use. On the other hand the Fujiwara feels lighter, has very good feedback, and the less high tech steel works just fine and holds up much better than the Germans had and it is sharpened much more acute (lower angle edge) than they would even take.

 

Keep in mind that many J knives do not come sharpened OOTB, and you will need to sharpen them. Some like the Tojiro do come sharpened, and though not sharp by the standards many share on forums etc they were much better than any I had purchased before from Henckels etc.

 

So I guess in the end you need to evaluate your needs, find your likes in style, handle (wa vs yo), steel, clad or not, and then find what fits into your budget. I think right now being you have a long list that includes very different knives you really need to shorten it up a bit by deciding what is really important to you, and like was said earlier that is more about personal preference and only you can make those decisions.

 

 

 

One last thing, and I know this is a whole subject in itself is that you do not need to be afraid of sharpening. Do not let it scare you, or believe that you can not do it. Sure it is not easy, but it can be learned, and you can get superior sharp edges without mastering it.

 

Be careful though as it does become addictive, and you may find yourself as much if not more involved in sharpening than knife choice in the future.

 

If you have more precise or additional questions post them up, and will see what we all can do :)

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #5 of 8
Thread Starter 


Lenny,

first of all I would like you to thank you for taking the time for such a detailed post. I've been reading a lot, I will wait until I learn how to sharpen my german knives (I also have a few cheap knives to practice on). Anyway, I narrow the list between the Hiromoto AS and the Masamoto VG (almost sold on the Masamoto), but wont be buying it right now.

What I did order is a King 1k/6k stone, that will arrive in a few weeks and my sharpening "journey" will start.

 

thanks again for taking the time to answer me

Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

Here is a link to the thread that was my attempt to gain some insight into the world of J knives, and ended pushing many members patience while on my journey :)

 

http://www.cheftalk.com/forum/thread/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-gyuto-a-good-budget-entry-level-intro-to-japanese-knives

 

Guga I know my reply to your other thread was not the most detailed, and hope this post helps a bit more.

 

It looks like we newbies are kind of helping each other a bit while the really experienced members are attending to having a life outside of here or something :) but not to worry as I found a lot of good info from others who were new to this while on my initial quest as well.

 

Keep in mind that one of my real needs was value, and I read that to mean performance in relation to price. Performance will include things like cutting ability, edge holding, sharpening ease, F&F, feel balance etc etc etc, but keep in mind that the value of some of these will be very different to a home cook, experienced home cook, and a professional putting in 14 hour days. Looks and "cool appeal" are always a factor, but hold less weight when comparing value so some of the higher cost knives were desired choices that did not make my short list.

 

Even though not all of your listed items was on my short list most all I had checked out to some point while making initial choices etc. I do not think there is a "Bad" one in your list and all should out perform your current collection. In my case I actually sold off all my Germans after spending a short time testing out a $49 Tojiro DP Gyuto, so yes even the low end is that impressive plus it helped to offset the cost of the total purchase.

 

The ones that were eliminated were mostly due to cost.  Sure I can understand there has got to be a difference between a $200 Misono or Massomoto etc and a sub $100 Tojiro or Fujiwara, but just what was I getting for that difference and how much worth would it have for a home cook (no matter how experienced lol). Again I was not so much interested in the wow or cool factor as much as performance and value.

 

Actually I am still progressing in finding just what the differences between the low and mid range priced knives is, and you should be seeing a new thread soon discussing my next purchase(s) to allow me to finally evaluate. I really wanted to get a good feel for the knives I have now before investing in a more expensive one so that I could make a good comparison and help myself to decide on what I would like to have in the end. It is actually very interesting, but also fun as well.

 

 

 

Now with all that said lets consider that all of these brands no matter the price are serious tools. Tools that are as much different as they are similar to their quality western counterparts. I like to use the term tool since even though many of us are home cooks many others are professionals or like yourself training to become a professional chef and these are the tools used. So not much unlike a carpenter or a surgeon for that matter the trade requires certain tools, and I think everyone would agree a quality tool is a true benefit. I also think that there is a point where quality and performance start to get fuzzy between manufacturers and once at that quality level bells and whistles or the cool factor hold more weight for buyers.

 

I had more than once thought of Tim the tool man grunting about with his new cordless whatever when reading the reviews on many knives. Funny and in a strange way entertaining, but just my odd sense of humor aside just like a $100 drill makes holes in similar fashion as the $350 one the same goes for cutting tools as well.

 

 

The purpose of this is to make you aware that a pretty knife or more expensive knife will not really make you cut any better than a less pretty one etc. (all being even in sharpness and right choice for job at hand).

 

Being I am still on my journey to finding proper knife harmony :)  I admit that I can not wait to be able to compare the performance of the higher end and cost product as the lower end is seriously that impressive over my old Germans. I can not even imagine that the performance can possibly increase in same fashion as the price will (the very thought blows my mind lol) but am so curious that it is a must do, and I can not wait to I can put the funds together to make my next purchase.

 

 

 

Something I have noticed with most all of the reviews from new J knife owners is that no matter the brand they most all seem to be happy, amazed with the increased performance, and immediate converts too.

 

Just look at the two previous posters who have very different knives and all very happy with them. I also am very happy as well, and though I can only compare two of those from your list being the Tojiro DP, and Fujiwara FKM I can tell you they are both fine choices, and also very different (as I suspect so are the others you list as well).

 

There is more in the other thread but basically the Tojiro DP blade steel is harder, gets very sharp, stays sharp a bit longer, and takes a bit longer to sharpen while the Fujiwara blade steel is a little softer, has a bit better F&F, feel, balance, gets very sharp, sharpens a bit easier, and needs to be sharpened a bit sooner. The VG10 in the Tojiro has really turned me into a fan of the steel, and though I know from reading reviews that there are better steels avail etc I have to imagine the higher end knives in VG10 must be a pleasure to use. On the other hand the Fujiwara feels lighter, has very good feedback, and the less high tech steel works just fine and holds up much better than the Germans had and it is sharpened much more acute (lower angle edge) than they would even take.

 

Keep in mind that many J knives do not come sharpened OOTB, and you will need to sharpen them. Some like the Tojiro do come sharpened, and though not sharp by the standards many share on forums etc they were much better than any I had purchased before from Henckels etc.

 

So I guess in the end you need to evaluate your needs, find your likes in style, handle (wa vs yo), steel, clad or not, and then find what fits into your budget. I think right now being you have a long list that includes very different knives you really need to shorten it up a bit by deciding what is really important to you, and like was said earlier that is more about personal preference and only you can make those decisions.

 

 

 

One last thing, and I know this is a whole subject in itself is that you do not need to be afraid of sharpening. Do not let it scare you, or believe that you can not do it. Sure it is not easy, but it can be learned, and you can get superior sharp edges without mastering it.

 

Be careful though as it does become addictive, and you may find yourself as much if not more involved in sharpening than knife choice in the future.

 

If you have more precise or additional questions post them up, and will see what we all can do :)



 

post #6 of 8

Hey Guga,

That's a very wise decission....

Good luck with your sharpening journey!

 

I agree with Lenny, it's addictive!!!!!

Life is too short to drink bad wine
---Anonymus---

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Life is too short to drink bad wine
---Anonymus---

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post #7 of 8

I agree.  Good call.  As you get more experienced and better at sharpening you'll appreciate the difference in steels more also.  Once you take your existing knives to the limit of what they can hold reliably, and then get a harder knife, you will see you can sharpen that to better angles than you could the Ikons.


 

post #8 of 8


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guga View Post


Lenny,

first of all I would like you to thank you for taking the time for such a detailed post. I've been reading a lot, I will wait until I learn how to sharpen my german knives (I also have a few cheap knives to practice on). Anyway, I narrow the list between the Hiromoto AS and the Masamoto VG (almost sold on the Masamoto), but wont be buying it right now.

What I did order is a King 1k/6k stone, that will arrive in a few weeks and my sharpening "journey" will start.

 

thanks again for taking the time to answer me



 


Sounds like a good plan.

 

The King combo stone was actually my first choice though I ended up with something different, but still I believe the a inexpensive combo stone is good because it will allow you to learn what you like and dislike while getting your "feet wet with whetstones" which really is the start of a new journey.

 

Do keep in mind that many believe that whetstones are not the best for German knives or steel etc. so do not give up if they do not work together perfectly.

 

I can not really offer much on this area as I had sold off my Henckels before my stones arrived, but I have had acceptable results on a shapton 2K glass stone with everything from Jknives to folders and odd imports of all types. I look at it as a learning experience and finding your own way is a good part of the fun.

 

Your short list also sounds like good choices as I don't recall hearing any serious complaints when reading on them etc, but I figure since you are allowing yourself more time you will mostly likely add to that list before you make a purchase :)

 

 

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
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