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Question about thickening Tomato Sauce using FLOUR & STARCH

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

Hi Hi Everyone

Im new to this board and wish you all the best.

Im making a tomato sauce using canned diced tomatoes and tomato ketchup for a chunky warm dipping sauce and would like to know which of the following methods is the correct way to thicken the sauce using Flour and Corn Starch?

1. Add cornstarch or Flour to simmered runny tomatoes then add ketchup?
2. Make a roux add ketchup and add the mixture to simmered runny tomatoes?
3. Darken flour in butter then add ketchup then add the mixture to simmered tomatoes?

Thank you and all the best
 

Everyone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #2 of 26

You could just cook the sauce for awhile to concentrate the flavor and evaporate the liquid, or you could add tomato paste to help thicken it.

post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefross View Post

You could just cook the sauce for awhile to concentrate the flavor and evaporate the liquid, or you could add tomato paste to help thicken it.


Thank you for your reply, im trying to avoid concentration of the tomatoy flavor and im after some neutral tomato flavor not as tomatoy as pasta sauce and not to ketchupy.

 

post #4 of 26

For a regular sauce I agree with ChefRoss; you cook it down and/or add tomato paste.

 

If I'm reading you correctly, however, you're looking for a sauce that has pieces of tomato mixed through it. If so, then cooking down the tomatoes won't work, because you'll lose the dice.

 

However, you can strain the tomatoes and thus eliminate some of the liquid. Line a strainer with cheesecloth, and you should stop almost all of the solids. You can then control the amount of liquid by:

 

1. Just using the ketchup (although I don't understand going that route at all).

2. Adding in just enough of the tomato liquid to meet your needs.

3. Cooking down the liquid, adding whatever flavorings you like, then returning the solids to that sauce.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #5 of 26

You lost me on "ketchup." 

 

To make a thick tomato sauce you add tomato paste and then let the sauce simmer uncovered for the liquid to evaporate until it becomes the consistency you like.  Personally I would not put flour in it but to each their own. 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #6 of 26

Don't cook the sauce, use a blender to break down the diced tomatoes then add the seasonings your looking for. once you get the consistency you want, heat it up.....If you were making a Sweet and Sour sauce, you would use a corn starch to thicken. You would use Arrowroot for fruit base thickening, or a reduction. Let us know what your looking to dip in the sauce. Cocktail sauce is ketchup based, Tartar is Mayo based, Fry sauce is Mayo and ketchup based with some seasonings.......ChefBillyB

post #7 of 26

While what you described sounds pretty gross, if one needed to thicken such a concoction with starch, arrowroot would be the most appropriate.  I typically use arrowroot for anything that doesn't contain eggs or dairy--that's what cornstarch is for.

post #8 of 26

@chefbilly

As far as I know cocktail sauce is tomato ketchup - mayonaise based, at least in Holland. Normally with a dash of whiskey or so in it as well.

Would this just be a another difference in the way recipes/names are different in some countries (like for me an entree is a starter...)?

Very interested in how you make yours?

 

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but just curious

 

Life is too short to drink bad wine
---Anonymus---

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post #9 of 26

Fast and delicious;

- first, sweat a chopped onion + choipped clove of garlic in some olive oil

- add tomatoes, s&p, pinch of chiliflakes and my secret ingredient; break off a good corner from a chickenstock cube and crumble over the tomatoes

(I always use Knorr or Italian Star cubes)

- let simmer without a lid until desired thickness. No need to thicken with starch. Some basil leaves in there will do miracles.

 

post #10 of 26



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by butzy View Post

@chefbilly

As far as I know cocktail sauce is tomato ketchup - mayonaise based, at least in Holland. Normally with a dash of whiskey or so in it as well.

Would this just be a another difference in the way recipes/names are different in some countries (like for me an entree is a starter...)?

Very interested in how you make yours?

 

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but just curious

 



HI Butzy, Cocktail sauce in the states is ...Ketchup, horseradish, lemon juice, Woo sauce ( Worcestershire Sauce) they use it for a dipping sauce for Cooked shrimp, crab or fried seafood like fried shrimp and clam strips, raw clams and oysters.................

 

post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 

Big thanks for all the replies guys. What im trying to achieve is to have a warm tomatoy sauce that goes well with burgers and fries and doesnt taste like pasta sauce (tomato paste flavor)

I first sweat the onions in butter then add the tomatoes without the juice along with sugar and some spices, then add water and let it simmer for an hour to loosen up the tomatoes and blend the flavours. Next i add a little bit of baking soda to reduce the strong tomato acid flavour, i let it simmer for a little then i add bit of ketchup salt & pepper and bring to boil then let cool.

 

At this stage the sauce is still watery and needs to be thicker. If i reduce the sauce, i will get a stronger tomato flavour which im trying to avoid and also the sauce becomes very dark.

I have tried xanthan gum to emulsify everything and make things thicker but im curious to know if adding starch or flour the correct way would get me closer to my goal.

 

so i dont know guys, maybe what im doing is completely wrong ?

 

cheers

post #12 of 26

It may not be completely wrong but I'm afraid that next you will tell us that you'll be adding play-doh to make the concoction redder.  I've never heard of making a tomato sauce not taste like tomatoes and I'm baffled as to how to help you do that, maybe just keep adding additives. 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #13 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post

It may not be completely wrong but I'm afraid that next you will tell us that you'll be adding play-doh to make the concoction redder.  I've never heard of making a tomato sauce not taste like tomatoes and I'm baffled as to how to help you do that, maybe just keep adding additives. 



Hehe yes i dont blame you. Have you had MOS cheeseburger ? Im not trying to achieve that exact taste but its sauce consistency is what im after.

post #14 of 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by faz83 View Post

What im trying to achieve is to have a warm tomatoy sauce that goes well with burgers and fries and doesnt taste like pasta sauce (tomato paste flavor) 

 

Sounds like you're trying to invent ketchup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by faz83 View Post

I first sweat the onions in butter then add the tomatoes without the juice along with sugar and some spices, then add water and let it simmer for an hour to loosen up the tomatoes and blend the flavours.

 

What?  If you don't do this you won't have to thicken anything later.  Why not soften the tomatoes, strain them, add them to the onions and butter and add your sugar and spices later.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by faz83 View Post

I first sweat the onions in butter then add the tomatoes without the juice along with sugar and some spices, then add water and let it simmer for an hour to loosen up the tomatoes and blend the flavours. Next i add a little bit of baking soda to reduce the strong tomato acid flavour, i let it simmer for a little then i add bit of ketchup salt & pepper and bring to boil then let cool.


So you use baking soda to neutralize some acid but then come back and add ketchup?  Conceptually this makes no sense.  Ketchup's main ingredients are tomatoes, vinegar, and sugar.  If the tomatoes are too acidic, why in the sam hell would ketchup make it better?


Quote:
Originally Posted by faz83 View Post

At this stage the sauce is still watery and needs to be thicker. If i reduce the sauce, i will get a stronger tomato flavour which im trying to avoid and also the sauce becomes very dark.

I have tried xanthan gum to emulsify everything and make things thicker but im curious to know if adding starch or flour the correct way would get me closer to my goal.

 

Xanthan gum is often called an emulsifier but its really not.  If an emulsifier makes oil stick to water on a molecular level, xanthan gum makes anything stick to anything at any temperature.  Its a stabilizer/thickener.  It is a hydrocolloid with a low yield point.  It acts like a gel when your solution is a rest, and a liquid when you go to pour it.  Its not a bad choice to thicken with but if you add too much it makes your solution like snot.

 

You're lost.  Quit worrying about the technicalities and try really explaining the finished product you are hoping to achieve.  What do you want it to taste like, what should the consistency be?

post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by benway View Post

 

Sounds like you're trying to invent ketchup.


 
 

So you use baking soda to neutralize some acid but then come back and add ketchup?  Conceptually this makes no sense.  Ketchup's main ingredients are tomatoes, vinegar, and sugar.  If the tomatoes are too acidic, why in the sam hell would ketchup make it better?


 

 

Xanthan gum is often called an emulsifier but its really not.  If an emulsifier makes oil stick to water on a molecular level, xanthan gum makes anything stick to anything at any temperature.  Its a stabilizer/thickener.  It is a hydrocolloid with a low yield point.  It acts like a gel when your solution is a rest, and a liquid when you go to pour it.  Its not a bad choice to thicken with but if you add too much it makes your solution like snot.

 

You're lost.  Quit worrying about the technicalities and try really explaining the finished product you are hoping to achieve.  What do you want it to taste like, what should the consistency be?


I need the consistency of MOS burger RED sauce, it does not taste like tomatoes. Thank You

 

post #16 of 26

By MOS burger RED sauce I assume you're talking about the stewed tomato based meat sauce?  Do you like the flavor of the sauce you described above or do you want that changed as well?

 

That sauce has ground meat in it like a bolognese to make it thick.  If you are after that consistency you should be looking for something else to play the part of ground meat.  You could thicken in the style of a mole or a chili and add breadcrumbs, tortilla, or crackers.  Eventually they will fall apart and thicken your sauce very quickly yielding that chunky meaty consistency like a chili.  This would be a good approximation of MOS burger meat sauce.

post #17 of 26

I don't think any one can answer the original question as it is not a tomato sauce to start. If you are going to cook like this , why not just buy a bottle of Ragu or Prego and start there. If your making a tomato kind of soup you can use roux or starch, but not a good sauce. Why not just use tomato powder, H20 and cornstarch or tapioca starch ? If it doesn't come out good you could use it as a base for a non oil paint.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benway View Post

By MOS burger RED sauce I assume you're talking about the stewed tomato based meat sauce?  Do you like the flavor of the sauce you described above or do you want that changed as well?

 

That sauce has ground meat in it like a bolognese to make it thick.  If you are after that consistency you should be looking for something else to play the part of ground meat.  You could thicken in the style of a mole or a chili and add breadcrumbs, tortilla, or crackers.  Eventually they will fall apart and thicken your sauce very quickly yielding that chunky meaty consistency like a chili.  This would be a good approximation of MOS burger meat sauce.

Yes im talking about the stewed tomato based meat sauce. The mos burger sauce does not entirely consists of meat for the meat to make it thick like hardees chili lava burger.

Can you tell me how to make a bolognese sauce to get to mos burger tomato based meat sauce consistency?

 

Thank you
 

 

post #19 of 26

Is this the mos burger that you are attempting to duplicate?

785px-MOS_Burger_2007-01.jpg

I found several threads on google, interesting enough, the founder based his burger on the Tommy's chili burger chain in Los Angeles, this burger sauce looks nothing like the origional, and the recipes I found are nothing close.

 

From their website: 

Mr. Sakurada's dream...

While working at an investment company in Los Angeles in the 1960s, Mr. Sakurada frequented a local hamburger chain called Tommy's. Inspired by the 'cook to order' concept, and delicious hamburgers at Tommy's, Mr. Sakurada hit on the idea that a counterpart to an American icon would be as popular with his countrymen.  

 

 

post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 

yes thats the sauce, im not trying to duplicate the all round taste but want to try and achieve the texture and consistency. Does this sauce contain tomatoes?

 

Thanks

post #21 of 26

Ok well I'm still not clear on whether or not you want meat in your sauce but if I were going to make this sauce I'd approach it like this:

1. Saute 1/2 diced onion and all ground meat (1.5-2 lbs if any at all) in the bottom a 6 qt pressure cooker without lid.

2. Add 16 oz of seeded, peeled, and chopped tomatoes

3. Add a big spoonful of tomato paste

4. Add flavorings and seasonings, salt, maybe pepper, maybe cumin, maybe a few dashes of hot sauce, maybe some roasted red pepper, maybe a few chipotles in adobo... whatever you want your finished product to taste like.

5. Add about 3 cups of liquid, 2 more if not using a pressure cooker.  This liquid could be flavorful like stock, beer, or wine.

6. Throw in about 3 oz of tortilla or tortilla chips.

7. Latch on the lid and cook at 15 psi for about a half hour.  It might take around an hour and a half with no pressure cooker.

8. Allow sauce to cool and check the consistency, play with the liquid/tortilla to achieve the right consistency.  Remember that it will thicken significantly as it cools.

post #22 of 26
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by benway View Post

Ok well I'm still not clear on whether or not you want meat in your sauce but if I were going to make this sauce I'd approach it like this:

1. Saute 1/2 diced onion and all ground meat (1.5-2 lbs if any at all) in the bottom a 6 qt pressure cooker without lid.

2. Add 16 oz of seeded, peeled, and chopped tomatoes

3. Add a big spoonful of tomato paste

4. Add flavorings and seasonings, salt, maybe pepper, maybe cumin, maybe a few dashes of hot sauce, maybe some roasted red pepper, maybe a few chipotles in adobo... whatever you want your finished product to taste like.

5. Add about 3 cups of liquid, 2 more if not using a pressure cooker.  This liquid could be flavorful like stock, beer, or wine.

6. Throw in about 3 oz of tortilla or tortilla chips.

7. Latch on the lid and cook at 15 psi for about a half hour.  It might take around an hour and a half with no pressure cooker.

8. Allow sauce to cool and check the consistency, play with the liquid/tortilla to achieve the right consistency.  Remember that it will thicken significantly as it cools.


Thanks for your response benway, i tried the sauce with flour in different ways, turned out just the way i wanted :) I will definitely give tortillas a try.

 

once again thanks

 

post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by butzy View Post

@chefbilly

As far as I know cocktail sauce is tomato ketchup - mayonaise based, at least in Holland. Normally with a dash of whiskey or so in it as well.

Would this just be a another difference in the way recipes/names are different in some countries (like for me an entree is a starter...)?

Very interested in how you make yours?

 

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but just curious

 



The sauce you are making is in the states basically a base for russian or 1000 isle dresiing. As Chef Billy points out the US cocktail sauce is chili sauce, horse,lemon and wors. maybe a hint of hot sauce. To do yours a la Russian Style add chopped sweet pickle or relish, for 1000 isle add chopped egg white,capers, diced peppers etc.In many places here 1000 isle and russian are one and the same. . Real Russian before we in the states changed it was Red Caviar mixed with Sour Cream. You are correct that depending on what country you are in foods are called and handled in different ways even though similar. All are acceptable and good.

 

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koukouvagia View Post

It may not be completely wrong but I'm afraid that next you will tell us that you'll be adding play-doh to make the concoction redder.  I've never heard of making a tomato sauce not taste like tomatoes and I'm baffled as to how to help you do that, maybe just keep adding additives. 


I was unsure about how to word my reply until I read your post, Koukou.  Thank you for taking the words from my mind and putting them... well, as you may say... in a nutshell.

 

----------------

Faz, the ketchup sent me for a loop and the fact that you don't want it tasting "tomatoey" (considering it's a tomato sauce) made me realize my loop became a labyrinth.  Sure, raw tomatoes have a much different flavor when they're cooked; bu,t if you're hoping to lose the more-bitterly sweet taste of raw tomatoes by adding ketchup.... atleast make your own.  This way, you won't have as much saturated fat, sodium, corn syrup or glucifides.

 

If you want to thicken it, just reduce the liquid content by cooking it down at a low heat.... seriously, simmer the crap out of it.

post #25 of 26

The flour you use can determine properties in thickness and consistency.  Use a flour low in protein and therefore high in starch like either cake or pastry flour.  You'll get a final thickness that is smooth and not grainy and has a good mouthfeel.  That's how I make my roux, with a flour that has only half the protein of AP flour.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
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post #26 of 26

This sight never ceases to amaze me !!!!!

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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