What cant go in vegetable stock? - Page 2

Actually, I do eat unpeeled carrots and celery leaves. Indeed, the inner leaves of the celery are, IMO, the best part.

From what you say, I'd have to presume you never eat potatoes with their skin on. Or radishes. Or do they somehow serve a different function than the skin of a carrot?

I'd have to guess that you peel every mushroom before eating it, and the peels go in the trash?

The stem of an onion is garbage, you say. Here's a shocker: the stem of an onion is called a scallion. I reckon you don't eat them, either? 

No, I don't eat the outer skin of onions. But when I make stock from scratch the whole onion goes into the pot. So saving them for later isn't a whole lot different. I use the green tops of leeks for that, too. Are they also garbage?

You know, there are things that are so in theory, but not so true in reality. As with many things pertaining to cookery, I've found that conventional wisdom is often conventional, but not necessarily wise. We keep repeating certain things, and take them as axiomatic. Then, when we actually put them to the test, we find out that what we believed wasn't so true after all.

Celery leaves adding bitterness to stock is, I believe, one of those things. All my life I've made a point of using them in stocks and broths, none of which ever turned out bitter.

Have you ever actually made a stock using celery leaves? Or are you just parroting the "they're bitter" you learned sometime in the past?

I use green leek tops for soup, but not for stock, as they make the stock turn green. It's not a flavor thing, purely a visual thing.

Celery leaves are wonderful, they can be used as an herb.  As a matter of fact in greece they through out the root of the celery (the crunchy part we love) and use only the leaves lol. 

To each their own, we all have a different sense of what we can and cannot use in our soups.  I for one do not put potato skins in my stock, but I do put unpeeled carrots.... sue me!  Why can't we all just get along?

Well, so it is that cooking, in this instance, making stocks, that personal preference plays a huge part. I have always found celery leaves to be bitter. I do eat potato skins, radish skins but not unpeeled carrots. The stem of the onion is not the scallion, the stem I am talking about is the part attached to the root from which it grows so I do in fact eat scallions.

I'm in absolute agreement, Deacon. It's all a matter of personal taste. F'rinstance, with celery, most people go for the white part of the rib, where it widens out at the root end. Me, I just about discard that part, and prefer using the green tops. I mean for eating, not stock making.

.....the stem I am talking about is the part attached to the root.....

What we have here, to coin a phrase, is a failure to communicate.

As a cook, I understand what you're saying. Basically, you cut off that bottom edge holding the roots.

As a vegetable grower, however, you had me confused, cuz an onion plant consists of the roots (those scraggly hairs at the very bottom) and the bulb (the onion intself). If you let that sprout, the stems  are called the tops, if you're a grower, or scallions, if you're a user. These stems emerge from the side opposite the roots.

If you start from seed or sets, and wait for them to bulb, each of those stems represents one layer in the onion bulb.

So, when you said "stems".......

FWIW, while you would think so, the nomenclature is different for garlic, because the stem is the part at the center of the bulb. Go figure!

"FWIW, while you would think so, the nomenclature is different for garlic, because the stem is the part at the center of the bulb. Go figure!"

This along with many other reasons is why I love what we do, so many things to learn and teach and then mix in some personal preferences and experimentation and cooks coming together to learn from eachother and you have the perfect results. Only up until you have too many cooks and then the 'sloup' is spoiled.

Of course today, a guest came in with a baby and asked for some boiled carrots. I obviously said sure even though those are not on the menu, so I asked one of my cooks to boil some carrot pieces for the child. When he put them in the window, I noticed that he didn't peel them before he cooked them...I just chuckeld at the coincidence.

Back to the stock issue, I have actually worked under a chef that peeled celery prior to putting in the stock.

Butternut squash and mushrooms deepen the flavor of mirepoix-based veggie stock.  :D  Once I tried including a bell pepper (as far as I remember, that was the only novel ingredient), but the batch turned out bitter.  Could the white insides or some stray seeds be the culprit?  

Two things that I've learned by trial and error not to include are: large amounts of cabbage and celery leaves. I've tried using celery leaves several times and have seen their inclusion in many recipes (even smoothies) but they are *so* bitter!  To everyone who uses the leaves, what is best way to work with them that mitigates the sharp taste?  I really want to like them, and am wondering what I could be doing wrong!

I have actually worked under a chef that peeled celery prior to putting in the stock.

That might be a generational thing, Deacon. My mother always peeled celery, to get rid of as many of the surface strings as possible. Modern celery has been bred to not have them (or not nearly as many, at any rate), and we mostly don't peel it anymore. But that chef might have been doing it out of habit.

I really want to like them, and am wondering what I could be doing wrong!

I think most of us have faced that syndrome, Kittycat. You know, a foodstuff you feel you should like, even if you don't. For me it was Brussels sprouts. Couldn't abide them in any shape or form. But I kept trying them, because I thought they were something I should enjoy. After all, I ate every other kind of cabbage you can think of.

One day I tried a particular recipe, and they were delicious. Now I make them frequently. Did my taste change? Did I finally just develop an afinity for them? Who knows. At last I understood what the shouting was about.

But it took 40 years. So I don't know as I can be much help with your celery problem.

Agreed about the celery peeling. He told me it removed the strings and allowed for more flavor to be released into the stock at the same time not turning into mush. At any rate, his stocks were phenomenal.

It feels wasteful to throw it out, so I keep trying.  :p  It's the same thing with asparagus and tahini -- I finally gave up on the former, and substitute roasted sesame oil for the latter.  And yet, I love Brussels Sprouts.  Taste is is a funny thing. 

Thanks for your comments!  :)

if you have kind of vegetables you can make vegetable stock. :)

usually it called court bouillon or vegetable stock. it's better than you use shrimp tails.

CMIIW peace

I use celery tops for my roasted chicken stock and I have yet to have it turn out bitter. I am sure that some day it will though based on what you all said. At work I make a chutney out of Cilantro, Jalapeno, Ginger Lime juice, Sugar, Salt and Rice wine vinegar that is usually very good. The last time I made it it turned out very bitter and have no idea why it was so bad. Same goes with Salsa Verde... Last 2 times i made it the taste was Soho bitter I had to throw it out... really irked me to spend 15 bucks on ingredients and have to toss it. So I am sure at some point my stock will turn out bitter

This post could go on and on and on. So lets put it this way, you can add whatever and any amount that you want to depending on your likes and dislikes.  W hat you want. In a place feeding the public  is some form  uniformity and consistancy all the time. Therefore we can't throw  whatever we have at different times into the pot , it must always be uniform. Not saying you can't put ingredient X in it, but then put it in all the time.

About the presumption of celery leaves being bitter - I remember reading in julia child that celery leaves could leave some bitterness because the pesticides are harder to wash away on the leaves.  I would often find traces of that green copper derivative (that's been used for a really long time- at least a century ago as a pesticide) on my celery (is that called verdegris?).  It's easy enough to get it off the stalks with a brush but harder to get off the leaves.  I always had used the leaves and never found any bitterness, but if they have verdegris (if that's what it's called) on them, I prefer not to eat them. Though what i DON'T see may be more dangerous. 

Anyway, I wonder if that's why they say the leaves are bitter - because traditionally celery was sprayed with that copper stuff. 

Carrot skins - i would want to scrub the carrots a lot before putting their skins somewhere, like potatoes, but i find it easier to just peel them.  But if you grow your own, it may be different - get the dirt off and that's enough if they're going to be cooked. 

Personally i don;t like cabbage family or peppers in soups.  But some do.  Got to go with your own taste.

Peapods, however, are full of flavor and can be used in soup, and though i read quickly and may not have noticed, i don;t think were mentioned.  I used to make a cream of pea soup using only pea pods (julia child again?)

A QUESTION for everyone: i usually cut up or squash the vegetables in soup (I twist celery stalks, cut up the carrots, cut through onions, etc) to quickly break as many of the cells as possible, before putting in soup/stock/broth.  Is that necessary or helpful or do they just break down on their own after the long cooking? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by siduri 

 

A QUESTION for everyone: i usually cut up or squash the vegetables in soup (I twist celery stalks, cut up the carrots, cut through onions, etc) to quickly break as many of the cells as possible, before putting in soup/stock/broth.  Is that necessary or helpful or do they just break down on their own after the long cooking? 

I don't think it hurts to break down the veggies a bit.  I cut the onions in half or quarters depending on size, and cut the carrots and celery in half as well.  I only leave the potatoes whole because hubby likes it whole on his plate and I fear that if I cut it up it will contribute too much starch.

I think it also depends on what kind of soup you are making.  Beef broth takes the longest, up to six hours so leaving the veggies whole won't inhibit them from breaking down in the soup.  Chicken broth only takes me about 3 hours and I do break them down as I mentioned above.  But when making vegetable broth I cut all my veggies down to a dice and sautee them first before adding liquid.

Answering your last first, I don't think it really matters. For convenience, when starting with new veggies, I  usually cut the onions in half and the carrots in two or three pieces, And I divide a garlic head in half as well.

But the fact is, they're all in the simmering water so long that all their goodness gets extracted, whether cut or whole. When I make my "garbage can" stock I don't notice any difference in flavor, even though everything is much smaller.

As to Julia's claim, it sounds unlikely to me. There's no reason a pesticide should stick to celery leaves differently than it would to other leafy plants. True, many greens are inherently bitter and that would mask it. But there are just as many which are not. So the chemical bitterness would show up there, as well. Plus, of course, the insecticide would never touch the inner leaves of the celery plant in the first place. Naturally, even if correct, this would not be a problem with organically grown or home-grown produce.

Re: Carrots with the skin on. Yeah, sure, I scrub them. Just as I do all roots that retain their skins. That would include potatoes, beets, turnips, carrots, celeraic, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

As to Julia's claim, it sounds unlikely to me. There's no reason a pesticide should stick to celery leaves differently than it would to other leafy plants. True, many greens are inherently bitter and that would mask it. But there are just as many which are not.

 

Re: Carrots with the skin on. Yeah, sure, I scrub them. Just as I do all roots that retain their skins. That would include potatoes, beets, turnips, carrots, celeraic, etc.

 

 

No, i don;t think the point is that it STICKS to the celery leaves, but that it's harder to get off.  I usually clean the stalks with a brush, but you can't brush the leaves.  It may also stick a little more because of their more complex shape, with smaller cavities between the veins. 

About the carrots, so you scrub them before peeling so you can put the peels in the soup?  I peel them because it's way faster than scrubbing.  I do like potato skin esp if they're roasted , but normally i don't have the time to be scrubbing the potatoes and just peel them too.  
 

First of all, Siduri, I scub any vegetable that comes from a supermarket or other commercial source, no matter what the end goal will be. Carrots, to put a point on it, get scrubbed soon as they're brought into the house. Then, depending on final use, they either get peeled or not. If peeled, the peeling go in the stock bag.

I really need to watch you at work, though. I know we have totally different views on food prep: your's is based on shortage of time and lack of patience, mine is based on doing the job that needs to be done. Even so, I can't imagine how peeling can take any less time than washing let alone be way faster. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

First of all, Siduri, I scub any vegetable that comes from a supermarket or other commercial source, no matter what the end goal will be. Carrots, to put a point on it, get scrubbed soon as they're brought into the house. Then, depending on final use, they either get peeled or not. If peeled, the peeling go in the stock bag.

 

I really need to watch you at work, though. I know we have totally different views on food prep: your's is based on shortage of time and lack of patience, mine is based on doing the job that needs to be done. Even so, I can't imagine how peeling can take any less time than washing let alone be way faster. 

Yeah, but you never saw me peel a carrot, KY!  or even a potato.  I do carrots with a carrot peeler, the kind that are sold for potatoes, but i choose one that works by drawing it away from the body, not towards it (as you would pare something, for that a knife is faster)  and i make sure it has a loose blade thingy, so that it follows the curves easily - and in i guess 6 or 7 very quick swipes, turn it around and another few swipes to get the end i was holding and the carrot is peeled.  Scrubbing carrots is probably not a long process, because usually they come from the supermarket already washed of the surface dirt, but scrubbing with a brush is a longer process than swiping quickly with a carrot peeler.  Once the peel is off, the surface is clean of any residue that hasn;t absorbed into the carrot itself.  I can't see washing it and THEN peeling, which would double the work.  And for something i am going to eat raw, i really want it clean, so peeling is quicker than thorough scrubbing. 

For potatoes, with my very thin and sharp paring knife i can get that done very fast too.  Long, even potatoes (rarely found here) can be done like carrots,  but most are uneven and roundish, and the knife goes fast.  I can get them done faster than i can get the dirt off the skins with a brush, at least to my satisfaction.  I used to use one of those rough dark green squares of rough stuff you use to scrub pans - but that would often just completely rub the  peel off the potato, and kind of defeated the purpose.  . 

I can't imagine bringing the shopping home and then washing everything - it's all i can do to get it into the fridge, and those things that don;t go into the fridge will often stay in bags a couple of days before i find room for them. 

I guess you must be very methodical and relaxed in your kitchen work, while i'm fast and disorganized, chased by time.  At the supermarket i put all the cold things in the same bags, so i get them put away right away and the rest sits in their bags on the floor while i start dinner, peels flying.  When i cook a big dinner (or my christmas party which is a meal with some 20 different dishes that i cook all myself) i really have a hard time if anyone offers to help because i don't know with my mind what i will have to do next, i only know it in my hands do i don't know what to ask them to do.  But I find this work extremely relaxing, surprisingly enough, and i enter into a rhythm, cooking for two days straight, going from one dish to another, but with nothing  more than a list of dishes as a guide and cross them out as they're done.  I admit I'm probably unusual in this.  But all my cooking is fast, but I almost always enjoy it.  If i have to write a paper or prepare a course, though, it;s the same, papers spread all over the desk, piles i know how to find things in with my hands, stuff spread all around me even on the floor.  Definitely not a linear mind!  But, as the Bard says, Though this be madness, yet there be method in't. 

Though I'm not OCD, it IS a fact that if a food source is contaminated on the surface, peeling is NOT a safe way to remove potential contamination generally. The contamination might be transferred to the tools used for peeling or to the hands holding the tool or product.

For me, if there is is a reasonable chance to suspect surface contamination, it is a "best practice" to handle it as if it is contaminated at the earliest possible point, i.e. wash, rinse, disinfect, whatever, BEFORE any other process.

If you know the source of your product and how it has been handled prior to you obtaining it,  you can evaluate the potential for contamination. If not, treat it as contaminated!

I can understand that in a professional kitchen, Pete, but it's not something I would do at home.  I actually don;t know anyone who does, that is, anyone in my actual life who is not from this forum.  I'd also swear that it doesn;t happen in professional kitchens here much either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

I really need to watch you at work, though. I know we have totally different views on food prep: your's is based on shortage of time and lack of patience, mine is based on doing the job that needs to be done. Even so, I can't imagine how peeling can take any less time than washing let alone be way faster. 

i just timed it - one fairly large carrot, 7 - 8 seconds.  How long does it take you to wash them (for eating)?  I tried a quick scrubbing with brush and it was 11 - 12 seconds (the imprecision due to having to turn my arm to see the watch after finishing).. I guess that's not way faster, but if you're making a carrot cake it does add up.  But the main thing is i tried to eat the scrubbed carrot raw and i really didn't like the taste of the peel, raw, at least.  I think the scrubbing requires you to pass over the same area more than once, so the time tends to double.  Of course, this is my biased self-observation and you could say i spent more time scrubbing than peeling unconsciously on purpose, but there's no way to make a double-blind study here on one person's peeling and scrubbing.
 

Siduri,

I think you understand what you thought I wrote, but I'm not certain you grasped what I meant.

If you trust your source of food to be uncontaminated, handle it in any manner that suits you.

On the other hand, IF you suspect the possibility of contamination, decontaminate BEFORE doing any "processing"! Wash the carrot, wash your hands, wash the peeler, wash the counter, wash the floor, wash the walls, sanitize EVERYTHING, treat it as a hospital would treat an infectious patient.

Because, IF the carrot is contaminated when you get it, your hands, the peeler, and anything else that may come in contact with the carrot has a high probability of being contaminated as well.

Do I wash and sanitize all food products? Of course not. I DO wash and sanitize my kitchen, both home and commercial, and all my cooking, serving, storage, and preparation equipment regularly. I buy my food products from sources I trust, either because I know the producer and their practices or because I know the producer, distributor, retailer has complied with the health standards dictated by our oh so benevolent government bureaucrats.

If the package of steaks leaks onto the produce, I DO wash the produce before any other handling!

If the package of steaks leaks onto the produce, I DO wash the produce before any other handling!

This implies that you are storing raw meat products above the fresh produce.

Surely not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

If the package of steaks leaks onto the produce, I DO wash the produce before any other handling!

 

This implies that you are storing raw meat products above the fresh produce.

 

Surely not?

Sorry, fingers too fast, NO I do NOT store raw meat products above fresh produce, actually, separate refers.

Comment referred to a typical supermarket shopper strictly to illustrate the idea of contamination.

My commercial operation conforms to NRFSP (=ServSafe) Food Safety Management standards as well as FDA 2009 Food Code requirements

Hi Pete,

No, i don't sanitize, if you mean spray antibacterial stuff.  Yet I don't trust much of anything, i once saw a guy delivering rolls from the bakery in an open basket on a motorbike.  (Yes, this was common practice here until the 90s) and the motorbike tipped over and all the rolls dumped on the street.  He picked them up and put them back in the basket, and no one knew any better when they bought the rolls.  These are the streets where dogs would leave their droppings and there were no laws yet on picking it up, poop bags, nothing.  I ate rolls.  What i don;t trust is those who produce and deliver my food.  What i do trust is my immune system.  I wash fruit and vegetables in water, even if they're going to be cooked, for the pesticides and for raw food for the germs of the handlers.  But i don't go further than that.  I'm sure much of the crap is left on them.  Oh well. 

Restaurants notoriously hire people illegally (illegal immigrants, but also local young people who are living at home and willing to work for 500 euro a week for a more than full time job) and have not gone through any health tests.  (At least here they can go to the doctor if they feel sick, but they lose their job if they don;t show up for work).  Yet i eat in restaurants. 

I don;t worry about germs much.  I try to keep my chicken from where raw food is, and i wash my hands with soap, put the (plastic) cutting board in the dishwasher. 

I presume the germs on the carrots i'm peeling will be transmitted to the carrot, but if they don't sit around for too long the amount of germs transmitted is going to be minimal and won't reproduce.  And what am i going to do, wash them with sanitizer?  I have to say I'm more worried about these chemicals than about the germs.  We have a natural immune system that's evolved over millenia to deal with germs, and if we're relatively healthy, these work for us (excluding those people who have diseases that attack their natural immunity).  But the ingredients in sanitizers are recent and our bodies have no natural protection against them.  I don;t like spraying things that may get in my nose, or absorb through my hands and certainly not that i ingest.    My family and i are pretty healthy.  I think i get more germs holding onto the poles in the bus anyway. 

I'm not being defensive, just saying that I don't, indeed i CAN'T, be worrying about these things every minute.  I have NO idea what's in the dirt where my carrots come from.  Maybe nuclear waste, maybe human sewage.  The camorra has been dumping all kinds of illegal waste all over italy (and i'm sure giant industries do the same in the states), and maybe the can of tomatoes imported from san marzano (camorra country) is so deeply contaminated we'll be having kids with five eyes.  Who knows.

So i don;t wash carrots before peeling.  I'm aware there may be germs.  I grew up in a family where my mother sanitized and sterilized everything.  My brother, poor kid, got every disease known to man the first year he went to school because he had not developed any immunities at all!  I try to be clean, but am not going to sanitize anything - i don;t even own any sanitizer.  But that's me.  And i have no professional training in food, so maybe i'm not aware of the risks. 

Again we have to seperate commercial and the home. Both are handled differently. Home pots, dishes and silverware are in most cases towel dried before storage . In a restaurant this is illegal unless paper disposable towling is used. . There are many things that are delivered differently and handled differently by in many cases fewer hands in a home enviorment. I feel in many cases home is safer.