i need help with a report on the 5 mother sauces.

Where are you located? That's the starting to point to best contacting the restaurant.

One of the best French restaurants in the nation is in your neighborhod.  Le Coq au Vin.  Started by Louis Perrotte.  Now owned by Reimund Peitz.

Hello Matrix, i am with you on my lack of knowledge about the 5 mother sauces. Although i have been making sauces based around some of them for years, I had n fundamental understanding of them. As of late I have working on developing my skills and knowledge of cooking, and this is one of the areas I have been focusing on learning. I found a good link that gives some information on the 5 mothers sauces. It is here: http://lynnescountrykitchen.net/sauc/mothersauces.html

If anyone can provide more information, tips they have picked up through experience, etc. I would love to learn more. 

         Hope you are not looking for mayonaise or vinagrette as mother sauces cause I would give you a F for failure  They are Bechamel--Veloute--Tomato--Espanol or Brown--and Hollandaise or butter.   There are no  others, although some folks add Beurre Blanc to the list which really is not.  Most upscale classy restaurants and Hotels use all of them. Other places use some of them. Other places use them and  just don't know it.

                  You look all of this up as that is the way to truly learn. Sauces are all explained in the Esscoffier Cookbook, or Culinary Institute cookbooks  Another thing to do check out The Zagat report.

          Also to Matrix  Do not classify Alfeddo as Bechamel as true Alfreddo is just heavy cream and good cheese and some times an egg yolk. Here in America we do with Bechamel ,but mostly for banquet and buffet.

Check out #7.

Hey Larry.

I may be a bit of a dissenting voice here but I can't believe they still teach this s**t at college/culinary school. If I walked into a professional kitchen and saw people making a roux for a veloute, bechamel or god forbid an espagnole, I'd burst out laughing and assume I'd gone through some time warp or something. Only a total s**thole would be making sauces this way nowadays or perhaps some dinosaur chef who doesn't know any better may still be peddling this "roux" or "beurre manie" bulls**t.

By all means teach this as part of the history of food, but what is the point of teaching this in practical classes when very few decent restaurants will be using these techniques? The truth is we have far better ways of making sauces these days and if I were you I'd ask my lecturers to teach me techniques that I will actually be using. 

College/culinary school is the biggest rip off and waste of time you can do as a chef. If you want to be a good chef, then go work for one. Get into the best kitchen you can and you will learn more there in a week than what you will learn in any school's entire programme. When I look at cv's I don't even consider what educational qualifications they have, I go straight to where they have been working. A chef who had been working in good places for 2/4 years is worth 1000 times what the same chef would be if they had just been to some culinary school for the same amount of time.

If Escoffier or Careme were alive today they wouldn't be using the same techniques, so why should you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by matrix42013 

it also depends if you are going by Careme or Escoffier. i am not trying to belittle tomato sauce i'm just saying if you look it up online it seams to be quite a debate to the "true" 5 mother sauces. but the only diffrence seams to be tomato and vinagrette. there both there but never on the same list. :)

Yeah it's been debated here before, and since before, prior to before.

Matrix,

You would also get an F from me. We are talking about larger/mother sauces. The largers are usually not used straight in most operations.

They prepare smaller sauces with the larger. C'mon guys, I'm a sweet guy and know this.

Matrix- Mayonaise and Vinegrette are the bastard children of the Gardemanger. Not really mother sauce material.

I was taught that bechemel originated in Italy where it was called balsamella. Catherine de Medici took it to France when she shacked up with Henry II.

You might also talk about how the sauces have changed over the years, eg Espagnole, which used to feature ham along with the mirepoix.

Speaking of Espagnole, I've seen people replace it one the list with demi, because it seems like no one uses Espagnole anymore (always gets turned into demi).
 

Also keep in mind that the tomato mother sauce is different then Italian sauce. It's tomato plus stock plus (blonde?) roux. Classically it also features ham or saltpork in the aromatics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosanostra 

I may be a bit of a dissenting voice here but I can't believe they still teach this s**t at college/culinary school. If I walked into a professional kitchen and saw people making a roux for a veloute, bechamel or god forbid an espagnole, I'd burst out laughing and assume I'd gone through some time warp or something. Only a total s**thole would be making sauces this way nowadays or perhaps some dinosaur chef who doesn't know any better may still be peddling this "roux" or "beurre manie" bulls**t.

Oh, fighting words! I'd rather a roux sauce then a snot textured jus lie any day. I always wondered why new wave French chefs criticized the roux sauces for being too heavy, when they used reduced cream for almost everything.

This is a good point. No matter the style of food, poor technique is poor technique. I think like anything it's the abuses of certain techniques that lead to people abandoning them all together, and jumping on the latest bandwagon all the time is just as bad as never evolving in my opinion. I can remember some of my old Head chefs falling in to this trap............One minute we have to have a jelly with everything, then everything has to have an air or foam with it, then everything has to be cooked sous vide etc.  To be honest when I'm cooking at home I still use a roux for a bechamel now and again and still really enjoy it in a nice lasagne or moussaka or something. Done well, as with all the mother sauces, it is a real treat.

However, if you believe that cooking should be about trying to maintain or enhance the natural flavours of the ingredients themselves then making a tomato sauce, veloute or demi with a roux base probably isn't the way to go.

Having read back my previous post, perhaps it was a little negative on the whole chef school thing. Here in the UK, our catering colleges and the syllabus taught in them is a complete joke. They are so underfunded I remember we got taught how to prep a chicken, fillet a fish etc by watching our lecturer do it and that was it. Never got taught how to make a good stock or how to cook anything really. Some of the monstrosities I saw being produced by my fellow students for their final exams was embarrassing to watch. I was working in a pretty good kitchen while I was doing my college course and my senior chefs would all enjoy asking me what I learned at college that day so they could all have a good laugh about it. At the time I was a little disheartened by this but when it was my turn to start building a brigade and I was getting these college kids come along for trials, I couldn't believe how unprepared some of them were and some of the practices they were taught.

Also they fill these kids heads with so much fantasy. I had a look at my old college's website and on their course description they say that the career possibilities once you have completed your course are to go straight into a Sous/Head chef job. I feel really sorry for the students that bought into that. 

Perhaps it is different in the US, although having worked with chefs straight out of US culinary schools, I don't think it's that different. As for French based technique, over here everything is still very much influenced by France because the chefs that taught me had all gone through a classical French training, since in their younger days the only good restaurants where everything was made in house and cooked with care were French. This has changed so much in recent times that we are starting to have the confidence to say "you know what, I like this and this about French technique but I don't like that so I'm going to change it". It has improved the standards across the board and made it possible to learn solid technique without stepping into a French kitchen, although only at the highest level. Our mid to low price restaurants are generally still terrible this side of the pond.

So all I would say is this. Enjoy culinary school, jump through whatever hoops they throw at you, but bear in mind that what they are teaching you, there has probably been a better way of doing it for about 30 years. 

Hey TinCook,

That story about Cathrine De Medici reminds me of my pop telling me how he had to walk 16 miles to school with a saxaphone and books in the snow with holes in his shoes.

This broad is credited for so much stuff. Italian ice, bechamela, pasta fagioli etc. They must have had to hoist her up on an elephant with a catapult'

Larry, the list below may be useful when contacting restaurants and could be used as a checklist? It's up to you.

I'm always a little surprised to see the obsession of culinary teachers in the US with mother sauces! Probably because this is a topic that can be stretched indefinately, and of course, time is money?

The list below is another approach that treats mentions basic sauses instead of mother sauces. I have no participation at all in making this list, it's a translation I made from the flemish website;

http://www.keukentheorie.net/ 

The guy who made this list is a pro with culinary background, probably also in teaching. It's still very alive and useful and in my opinion very accurate. I left out a lot about making the basic sauces, but I put the emphasis on the derivates. The derivates are not complete, they mention the most used ones.

Also, when reading through this thread, I think it could useful to check on the correct spelling.

Here you go;

Basic sauces

There are 6 basic sauces;

- Béchamel sauce

- Velouté sauces

- Tomato sauce

- Demi-glace and poivrade

- Sauces based on oil

- Sauces based on butter

1. Béchamel

Two methods; Cold milk added gradually to a warm roux or cooled crumbled roux mixed in boiling milk.

Some derivatives;

Made with béchamel plus...

- cooked onion puree; sauce Soubise

- grated cheese; sauce Mornay

- fresh cream; cream sauce

- Tomato puree; sauce Aurore

2. Velouté sauces

Is never made with a dark fond (=stock), always a white fond, either ordinary white fond, poultry fond, fish fond...

Composition; roux + fond

Some derivatives;

A. Made with base of ordinary velouté plus... eggyolks and lemonjuice plus...

- cooking juices of champignons; sauce Allemande

- chopped fines herbes (fresh herbs); sauce Poulette

- cubes of marrow and tarragon; sauce Bonnefoy

B. Made with poultry velouté plus...

- cream and cooking juices of champignons; sauce Suprême

- white wine and juice from green herbs; sauce Chivry

- sauce Suprême and glace de viande; sauce Ivoire

C. Made with fish velouté plus... cream plus... white wine plus...

- sweated shallots and tomato; sauce Duglérè

- peeled halved white grapes; sauce Vèronique

- Shallots, tomato and champignons; sauce Brèval

- Mussels, shrimp and champignons; sauce Ostendaise

3. Tomato sauce

Made with mirepoix of carrot and onion, bacon left overs, grease and flour or white roux, tomato puree or fresh tomatoes or both, bouquet garni, garlic, white fond or poultry fond, s&p.

Is mostly used on its own but their are a few derivatives

Tomato sauce plus...

- julienne of champignongs, truffel, ox tongue, ham and Madeira wine; sauce Milanaise

- chopped onion, garlic, glace de viande, tomato concassé; suace Portugaise

4. Demi-glace and poivrade

A. Demi-glace plus...

- reduction of chopped shallot, red wine and garniture of cubed marrow; sauce Bordelaise

- reduction of chopped onion, vinegar, white wine and mustard; sauce Robert

- julienne of ham, truffel, champignons, ox tongue, Madeira wine; sauce Zingara

B. Poivrade

Is a variation on demi-glace used for game dishes. Mostly made with wild fond.

Some derivates; Poivrade plus...

- cream and Cognac; sauce Diane

- cream and Cognac... and red current gely; sauce Grand-Veneur

- cherries; sauce Badoise

- half Poivrade/half Grand-Veneur; Sauce Arlequin.

5. Sauces based on oil

A. Vinaigrette

B. Mayonaise

Some derivates; Mayonaise plus...

- mustard, chopped; fines herbes (fresh herbs), onion, gurkins, capers; sauce Remoulade

- same as above, adding chopped hardboiled eggs; sauce Gribiche

- lemonjuice and lightly whipped cream; sauce Chantilly

- ketchup, whisky or cognac, Worchester sauce, cayenne pepper or Tabasco; sauce Cocktail

- cooked brains, parcely and lemonjuice; sauce Italienne

5. Sauces based on butter

A. Sauce Hollandaise

Some derivates; Hollandaise plus...

- lightly whipped cream; sauce Mousseline

- orange juice and julienne of orange zeste; sauce Maltaise

- Sherry wine (Jerez) and whipped cream; sauce Divine

B. Sauce Béarnaise

Sauce finished with chopped tarragon leaves and chopped chervil, never parcely!

Some derivates; Béarnaise plus...

- glace de viande; sauce Foyot

- concassé de tomates or tomato puree; sauce Choron

C. Shellfish Butter

D. Beurre blanc

Sometimes also called "Beurre Nantais". There is a difference. Beurre Nantais has no cream in it.

I really can't believe the school teaches that mayo and vinaigrette are parts or components of mother sauces. Maybe in school you use a double boiler to make Hollandaise, if you did this in a commercial setting the rest of the line guys would shake their heads.

       Schools are wonderful , I should know I taught in 3 of them, but reality comes when you go out in the trade. Just because 1 instructor says this is the way it is, does not make it gospel. And by the way the school last year that was voted tops was The French Culinary Institute in N.Y. and rightly so with the very distinguished award winning  chefs running it. When you graduate and enter the real world, you will see so many things opposite what school teaches you'll be amazed. School is basics, thats it.

      Mayo and vinaigrette are from everything and book I have seen refered to as dressings not sauces.

Teamfat

. When I traveled Italy, I had it with pasta water and cream depending on what region I was in, Both were good. In the states however somewhere along the line someone introduced Bechamel. Maybe to keep price down or as sub for heavy cream style. Who and why I don't know. Oh yes in one place a  Family Trattoria outside of Rome a chef used a bit of chicken stock, that was good to.

While in college, oh about 40-45 years ago, I came to a realization that what was important for "good grades" was to answer the instructor's/professor's question(s)  in a manner that the instructor/professor believed was correct, whether or not that answer was factually correct. Exceptions to this realization can probably be counted on one, maybe two hands.

The OP is seeking help in finding restaurants that use the five basic sauces that the instructor/chef recognizes!

Just as ChefEDB stated, if the answer includes one or more sauces that are not on that instructor's/chef's list of basic sauces, the answer will receive a low grade or, possibly, an F!

As repeatedly stated by numerous forum members, in any kitchen, the CHEF (by that I mean the one who controls the paychecks, schedules, or hires and fires, or in this case, grades the paper(s)) decides what is right or wrong and if you want to keep working or get good grades, you will follow that guidance!

Now, if one is really fortunate, you will have the opportunity to study/work under someone who understands the differences between factually correct and their own closely held beliefs.

The OP's question has nothing to do with a debate over which sauces are Mother sauces, it has to do with finding a restaurant that uses the five sauces that the instructor/chef recognizes as Mother sauces.

Yes. Sometimes it's best just telling people what they want to hear. We all have to dance to some one else's beat every now and again. Just don't fall into the trap of a closed mind. If you do, as a chef you will become obsolete very quickly.

Regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken 

The OP's question has nothing to do with a debate over which sauces are Mother sauces, it has to do with finding a restaurant that uses the five sauces that the instructor/chef recognizes as Mother sauces.

He is either going to interview Reimund Peitz or Louis Perrotte.  Very few people in this world can contradict Chef Reimund, although arguably Louis Perrotte is more knowledgeable in regional French.

Let us all hope that the OP's instructor/chef recognizes the expertise of either or both for the sake of a "good grade".

More importantly, let us hope that the OP does for the sake of knowledge!
 

I've got a question for the assembled toques of our community. Where to place Sauce Tyrolienne in the scheme of things? Do you consider it part of the Hollandaise family even though it's made from olive oil, account it with the orphaned butter sauces like beurre blanc, or do you place it in the mayonaise family?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by panini 

Hey TinCook,

That story about Cathrine De Medici reminds me of my pop telling me how he had to walk 16 miles to school with a saxaphone and books in the snow with holes in his shoes.

This broad is credited for so much stuff. Italian ice, bechamela, pasta fagioli etc. They must have had to hoist her up on an elephant with a catapult'

Lol, there is a Catherine the Great joke to be made there, but I'm just too classy to do it. Maybe the balsalmella thing is apocraphil, but it's a good story. I was also taught that she introduced the fork to the French too. I guess I should chalk it up to 'there's nothing new under the sun.' As in there were lots of proto mayonaises around before Armand du Plessy's personal chef named it after his patron's latest triumph in battle.
 

I'm just sitting back laughing at you guys. Poor technique? who judges that.

Cosa Nostra..Really...Really

The only thing this thread has proved to me is that you guys have been corrupted by the WWW.

You guys have become so friggin anal!!!

If you look hard enough you will find something that makes you happy.

Do you realize you're trying to tell this old chef that mayo and vinegarette are mother sauces.

Then you want me to be open minded.

This whole board has become one big pissing match on who can look something up.

Pull the plug on google, get a beer, and we can start to talk about cooking.

We didn't have the WWW We waited for the next Thuries magazine to come out. Yea, look that one up!

The only foam he knew was on a cold one.

OK, return to normal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken 

Let us all hope that the OP's instructor/chef recognizes the expertise of either or both for the sake of a "good grade".

 

More importantly, let us hope that the OP does for the sake of knowledge!
 

 

Also, frankly, I don't know of a single chef who has ever considered culinary school grades to be more important than a willingness to learn.

Matrix, I'm in culinary school and I've been taught Tomato sauce vice Vinagarettes.  However, I've also learned over the years to do it as the boss tells you to do it, whether you think that it is right or wrong.  In any case, you can learn a lot here on these forums.  I certainly have, and continue to do so.

Dude, if the curriculum says that a salad dressing is a mother sauce then it is for that test. I hope your interview went well. My advise to you is to filter all the garbage you hear in school, on this forum, and everywhere else you hear it and make up your own mind. Ultimately it does not matter one way or the other what 5 sauces you choose to believe are the 5 mother sauces... I will tell you this though, learn to bite your tongue a bit when you are talking to folks more experienced than yourself. Listen more than you talk, process everything twice that you are being told by those of a higher grade than yourself before you ever open your mouth to speak. When you are being interviewed for a job as a cook, you will be asked and you will not likely be looked at in high regard for saying what you are taught in school.

Remember, listen more than you talk and you will be much farther along than most "chefs" with 15-20 years in just 5 years.