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Why does speed of boiling effect fat rentention in soup?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

I have been trying to create a high fat soup and had some questions.

 

1. When we make a beef or chicken soup why do we bring water to a boil then add the meat, why do we not just add the meat to the cold water then bring to a boil? What is the point of the technique?

 

2.I have been trying to cook some meat and create a high amount of saturated fat so i can have a gelatanious soup, this is just for experimenting. I add the meat, bring it to a boil, then simmer.  Sometime it comes out very gelatanious other times only half other times most of the gelatine disapears.  I have noticed that the difference in fat is due to speed at which the water is broight to a boil.  If you boil it on very high, after the boil you will see there is hardly any fat, if you boil it slowly then simmer it turns out ok.  Anyone know why this is?

 

Also sometimes when i bring to a boil then try to simmer i notice i have to increase the heat to get it bubbling again, i use trial and error to gradually reduce.  other times i try to simmer but is always boils perhaps because i have boiled it to hot in the first place.  Is trial and error normal or anyone have tips on how i can get a controlled simmer?

 

3.Somebody previosuly told me they remove fat from the soup top after it has cooled.  Most of the taste is in the fat so if you remove it how does your soups taste any good?

 

Thanks

post #2 of 20

The amount of fat, saturated as you put it has very little to do with the solidifying of gel in the soup. This is based on the amount of bones used and the time cooked..

Fat left in a soup to me does two things, It keeps the soup hotter and makes it greasy.

     I dont believe when correctly executed a soup is enhanced by leaving fat in it. To make a stock most times everything starts from a cold state., To make a consomme everything MUST start from a cold start. To control simmer and boil and  a rolling boil is a matter of controling the heat and its source. Water alone boils at 212. Stock and soups sometime take  higher temps because they are concentrated solids at times and not simply water.

     Similar to if you pour 2 cups of coffee and put sugar in one and drop some from each cup on both legs. The leg with the cup with sugar added will develop a worse burn and if a thermometer is put in, will in fact be hotter. So goes science.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #3 of 20

Boiling a soup breaks up the pools of fat. It essentially whisks the fat into the broth creating a cloudy emulsion. And for most people an unpleasant soup, but you've posted before that you like it. The same amount of fat is created by either method essentially, but by not boiling the stock, the fat remains visible and is easy to remove.

 

As chefed noted, gelatinous quality comes from bone and cartilage normally when you make the stock.

Chinese soups are usually thickened with a cornstarch slurry near the end.

 

Meat is added later in the making of soup so it doesn't overcook and lose it's texture and taste.

 

Managing heat to hit a simmer is an art and has a lot of variables. Generally it's easier for a cook to bring to a boil and back off to a simmer than to creep up on the simmer without overshooting. As the soup loses heat and comes down to a simmer, you can sometimes overshoot the other way too.  Induction, you can set a temp and hit it. I can set my induction burner to 180 for making a stock and it does a very good job.

 

Fat can contribute to flavor, but is not necessarily flavorful itself nor pleasant to eat. In a situation such as soup where the fat doesn't mix with the water well, it's generally percieved as unpleasant. If you were to boil the stock and fat to emulsify it, the flavors are often murky and not clean, crisp and pleasant. Mouthfeel also suffers with the fat in the soup.

 

Sometimes, fat may be added to a soup as a garnish such as using an extra virgin olive oil on a bowl  of minestrone.  This is a case where the fat is particularly flavorful and accents the soup, as well as being a healthy, beneficial fat.

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 

Phatch, can you tell me if I have interpreted what you are saying correctly.  Please note I am trying to create a soup which retains as much animal fat as possible.

 

1.Fistly when you boil soup, it breaks up fat and causes an emulsion/gets removed.  Does it get removed when you remove froth or does it kind of go away into the air?

 

2.Is best for me not to boil the soup but keep it at a simmer at all times?

 

If yes,

how would i remove the froth without boiling?

normally boiling makes the soup look clear, woudn't it now look unclear?

will simmering be sufficient to kill all germs and bacteria?

 

Are you saying the best way to get a high fat soup is to never go above a simmer?

 

Thanks

 

post #5 of 20

When boiling the fat gets mixed up directly into the broth.  It's not going away at all or being removed. Boiling makes it impossible to remove.

 

Simmering makes a clearer stock than boiling. Scum/froth will still rise to the surface if you're truly at a simmer.

 

Neither simmering nor boiling makes the soup high fat. Simmering just leaves the fat visible. When boiled, the fat is still there, just not easily visible to the naked eye.

 

Simmering is high enough temp for food safety, 180-190 with some variation by your elevation.

 

The general principles of cooking are to not make a high fat soup which is why simmering is considered the better technique as it leaves the fat on top for easy removal.

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #6 of 20

Phatch I notice you said you have an induction burner. I was thinking of getting one for the house. What brand is it. How long have you had it, and what do you think of it. Thanx EDB

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #7 of 20

I reviewed my unit here:

 

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63404/max-burton-6500-induction-burner

 

I've not checked to see if models have changed since then.

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #8 of 20

I think you want something like tonkotsu broth.

post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 

Patch, you say after using a high boil the fat is invisible but still there, please explain how because I have made the following observations:

 

1.If you boil a load of meat on high you will notice excessive steam, if you look at the bottom of the lid of your pot , you will see the steam turns to water which turn to fat at room temp, so something must be carried upwards by the steam during cooking?

 

2.If the fat is still there but invisible, why does it taste disgusting, since the fat is there you should still be able to taste it in the broth no?

 

3.If the fat is there but invisible, why does it not later appear at room temperature? if it does its little amounts where is the rest?

 

4.If the fat is there but invisible, why am i always hungry after eating it wheareas when i eat the visible version it fills me up, remember fat is the things which gives us the feeling of being filled up?

 

Please explain, is it that the fat is there but the boiling changes its chemical composition and no longer works in the way it should?

 

Would be grateful if you could answer these.  Many thanks

 

 

 

 

 

post #10 of 20

 

Quote:
1.If you boil a load of meat on high you will notice excessive steam, if you look at the bottom of the lid of your pot , you will see the steam turns to water which turn to fat at room temp, so something must be carried upwards by the steam during cooking?

Yes, some fat is carried up in steam. Not lots.

 

 

Quote:
2.If the fat is still there but invisible, why does it taste disgusting, since the fat is there you should still be able to taste it in the broth no?

You can taste it. It's why it tastes disgusting. Animal fat generally doesn't taste that good.

 

 

Quote:
3.If the fat is there but invisible, why does it not later appear at room temperature? if it does its little amounts where is the rest?

It's been broken up small enough that there is insufficient surface tension for the pools of fat to reform, i.e. has formed an emulsion.

 

 

Quote:
4.If the fat is there but invisible, why am i always hungry after eating it wheareas when i eat the visible version it fills me up, remember fat is the things which gives us the feeling of being filled up?

Too many variables to give you a for sure answer. Fat contributes to satiety, but it takes very little for this effect to register on the body. I suspect it's more likely that the visual appeal and flavor of a simmered soup contributes to your perception of satiation. And you probably eat more of the soup you like compared to the soup you don't. You seem to be attributing effects to visible fat that aren't supported in the science.

 

 

Quote:
Please explain, is it that the fat is there but the boiling changes its chemical composition and no longer works in the way it should?

No. You've taken certain aphorisms and perceptions as fact that aren't the truth you think they are.  You should read Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking for a better understanding of the issues I think.

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 

Hmmm, this is making me wonder. 

 

When I simmer my meat, intiially i see a lot of small circles rise to the top, this continues and eventually i see a yellow/greenish gel like substance form at the top, are these circles/subsequent gel fat or something else?

 

It seems to me this substance that comes about during simmering later soldifies into saturated fat at room temperature.  So is it fat or something else? You say fat is disgusting but when i leave the fat in there and heat it it tastes rich as opposed to eating invisible fat.

 

If you are saying that it is something else, therefore if i later remove all the white fat then all the circles and gel should remain and thats where the taste and non bland look is coming from?

 

Thanks

 

post #12 of 20

Sounds like fat. If you like it, eat it. 

 

Perhaps Eating Christmas in the Kalahari will show how this is a cultural divide.  They delight in fat the way you do and others here do not.

 

http://windward.hawaii.edu/facstaff/dagrossa-p/articles/EatingChristmas.pdf

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #13 of 20

Chlorinated,

 

Your questions appear peculiar for a "recent culinary school graduate". Perhaps you should consider asking for a refund of your tuition.

Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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Chef,
Specialties: MasterCook/RecipeFox; Culinary logistics; Personal Chef; Small restaurant owner; Caterer
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post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 

Non refundable.

 

Patch, I actually thought its fat but I was getting confused when you spoke of invisible fat.  Since I find fat tastes good and invisible fat tastes disgusting, does this mean that the invisible fat has become too small to be tasted unlike the visible fat? Is this the correct science.

post #15 of 20

What culinary institution did you attend or graduate from???

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #16 of 20

I think it can be tasted, but different people have different capacity to taste.

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 

The refundable thing was a joke.  Must have misselected the experience level when i first signed up.  Have changed it now.  Thanks

post #18 of 20

Chlorinated. 

Again what school are you in or did you graduate from???

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #19 of 20



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlorinated View Post

I have been trying to create a high fat soup and had some questions.

 

1. When we make a beef or chicken soup why do we bring water to a boil then add the meat, why do we not just add the meat to the cold water then bring to a boil? What is the point of the technique?

 

We don't do that.  I always put the meat in cold water and bring to a simmer. 

 

 

2.I have been trying to cook some meat and create a high amount of saturated fat so i can have a gelatanious soup, this is just for experimenting. I add the meat, bring it to a boil, then simmer.  Sometime it comes out very gelatanious other times only half other times most of the gelatine disapears.  I have noticed that the difference in fat is due to speed at which the water is broight to a boil.  If you boil it on very high, after the boil you will see there is hardly any fat, if you boil it slowly then simmer it turns out ok.  Anyone know why this is?  Also sometimes when i bring to a boil then try to simmer i notice i have to increase the heat to get it bubbling again, i use trial and error to gradually reduce.  other times i try to simmer but is always boils perhaps because i have boiled it to hot in the first place.  Is trial and error normal or anyone have tips on how i can get a controlled simmer?

 

To make a gelatinous soup you need bones, not meat.  For a beef soup it's best to use shank bones which have a lot of bone marrow, that makes a very rich broth, but any bones will do.  I'm not a scientist but I do believe that a slow simmer is best when trying to extract the flavor from the bones.  A slow simmer will also give you a nice clear broth, and rapid boiling will give you a cloudy icky looking broth.

 

 

3.Somebody previously told me they remove fat from the soup top after it has cooled.  Most of the taste is in the fat so if you remove it how does your soups taste any good?

 

Thanks

 

I'm not sure where you are from, I assume you are not from America.  Here in the US doctors advise strongly that we do not consume too much saturated fat which leads to high cholesterol levels and clogged arteries.  Yes fat is flavorful, but not all flavors come from fat.  The deliciousness of my soup comes from the slow simmered bones, but also in the pot I place onions, carrots, celery, garlic, and herbs.  These provide so much great flavor and nutrients that the excess fat is unecessary and only an intrusion to the yumminess in the form of both taste and texture.

 

Fat is a very important part of a healthy diet, but we are strongly encouraged to get our fat from unsaturated healthy fats such as olive oil, avocados, fish and nuts.  What does your doctor say?



 

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

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post #20 of 20

Hey Chlorinated are you trying to make a broth based high fat soup? If I were going to try and make a high fat soup I would not do a broth based version I would do a cream based. Cream is fat and so you would achieve what your a looking for. Another option for what you (I think) are trying to accomplish is to try and introduce the fat to the broth based version in different ways. For example introduce fat by adding dumplings or quenelles.

 

 

I am pretty much in agreement with what everyone said previously. To get the nice think gelatinous soup you start with lots of bones. You can add meat but it has to be well marbled and this is quite expensive. In fact it was actually what Escoffier did in his days which is amazing but of course back then they were also tourneing black truffles. Unless you have a big budget I would not add meat just for the sake of fat I would add more bones.

 

 

In regards to what Phatch said about more animal fats are undesirable I find I am very fond of duck fat (great for sauteing vegetables in instead of butter) and of course our beloved pork fat. 

Thanks,

Nicko 
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Thanks,

Nicko 
ChefTalk.com Founder
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