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Down sizing a recipe question

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

I have a recipe that asks for 100Kg of flour. Before making such a big quantity, I want to test the recipe to see if is what I need. I would like to test first with 5-10Kg of flour to see how it turns out. My question is, how do I downsize, just by dividing all the quantities to say... 10 or 20 and then following the steps of the original recipe?

 

The recipe is for a dough, and asks for flour, fresh yeast, eggs, powder milk, margarine, salt, water (and maybe sugar, I don't remember, I don't have the recipe in front of me right now). The recipe ask first to grow the yeast first for 2 hours with some water and some of the flour (leaven?)... then add the rest of the ingredients...

 

TIA

-ioan

 

P.S.: This is an old recipe from a Romanian recipe book for bakeries.

post #2 of 19

Basically, yes, you'll end up dividing by 10 or 20 to get down to the amount you want. In practice, that may not work out so well. I've found that scaling recipes by a large amount does not always work like you expect it to. It seems like most of the ingredients you are using are fairly cheap, so you lose relatively little by experimenting.

 

Ideally, you should know what the consistency of the dough is that you're looking for. If you run into problems, they will most likely be with the ratio of flour to water. If you get the dough to the right amount of wetness, the rest of the ingredients are usually fairly forgiving. Usually.

post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 

Thank you for the response. I know what the consistency of the dough should be, so after few tries I should get it right. 

 

I have another question. Lets say that the dough is what I need and I want to start making it in bigger quantities for the end product that I'm planing to make and sell. Lets say I make 50Kg of dough a day, and I use about 5Kg in an hour. Can I make the dough in the morning and then store it for later use or should I just start making smaller batches just before running out of the old batch?

 

BTW, I'm a software programmer, I have not much knowledge about baking, and I want to start a small business on the side, to sell a baking product in weekends and at fairs... and the idea is to make it in front of the customers, the smell and the procedure of making it is going to bring the masses :-)

post #4 of 19

If it's a fairly old cookbook, watch out for yeast things too. Modern yeast is more active and quicker and you'll need less.

 

For example, the two hour proofing of the yeast would probably be skipped by many pastry cooks today. On the other hand, proofed yeast often has a better flavor, but two hours is overkill for modern yeast in my opinion. Note that I'm not much of a baker either so hopefully someone more informed will correct my mistakes.

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post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 

Here is the complete recipe for 100Kg of flour (I'm translating from Romania, sorry for mistakes):

 

Preparing the leaven:

40Kg flour, 2Kg fresh yeast, 24L water. Mix them together for 8-10 min and leave it to rise for about 120-150 minutes at temperature of 27-29C. The final acidity should be 2.5-3 degrees of acidity (??).

 

Over the risen leaven add 60Kg flour, 1.01 Kg salt, 3.05 Kg powder milk, 145 eggs, 2.18 Kg sugar, 0.145L lemon concentrate (essence) and about 25L of water. Mix for 6-8 minutes and then add 12.650Kg of margarine and mix for another 5-8 minutes. 

 

Leave the dough to rise for 30-40 min at the 29-30C temperature. The final acidity of the dough should be 2-2.5 degrees of acidity.

 

From here on is about how to make the end product.

 

Questions:

1) how do I transform the fresh yeast to dry?

2) what do they mean by "degrees of acidity" (probably this is called something else in English, "degrees of acidity" is the exact translation from Romanian).

3) Could I replace powder milk with fresh milk and take out same amount of water?

4) This recipe is from the period when butter was expensive and hard to find in Romania, can I replace margarine with butter?

5) What kind of flour is the best for this kind of dough? In the book asks for "white flour type 600".

 

 

Any comment on how to transform the recipe in a more modern, same tasting one? :-)

 

(The book is from 1978)

 


Edited by ioan - 8/31/11 at 1:05pm
post #6 of 19

1. Different sources have different answers, ranging from 2:1 to 4:1 fresh:dry. Fleischman's and the Food Lover's Companion say that a .6 oz. cube of fresh is the same as a .25 oz. packet of active dry or instant yeast. This means a ration of 2.4:1, so divide the oz. of fresh by 2.4. 2kg/2.4= 8 1/3 kg of active dry or instant yeast. The type of yeast you use and whether you use a little more or less, as well as temperature will affect your proof time.

 

2. I don't know. Maybe degrees means pH? I've never really measured how acidic anything is that I've baked before.

 

3. Short answer: it'll be okay to substitute fresh milk. Longer answer: depending on the amount you substitute and whether it is whole or nonfat, you may affect the amount of protein in the recipe, which will affect gluten development somewhat. Will it make a huge difference? Probably not.

 

4. Butter should be fine.

 

5. According to the German numbering system, 550 is AP white flour and 812 is white bread flour. According to Uncle Phaedrus, there is a Swiss number system where 600 would be white bread flour, and 800-850 would be whole wheat flour. I haven't found anything else mentioning this numbering system, so I'm kind of dubious of that answer. So really, I don't know. It looks like you're making some type of regular leavened bread, so I would guess you should go with white bread flour for better gluten development.

 

I would definately recommend following the procedure in the recipe closely for your first test. The first step is called the sponge. It is important because the initial fermenting period will impart flavor to the dough. The longer it ferments in the first stage, the more complex and sour the flavor will be. Also, it allows the flour to fully soak up water and autolyze. Dough that is autolyzed will develop more gluten faster when it is kneaded than dough which is not autolyzed. If you are only kneading the dough for 5-8 minutes then letting that dough sit is going to make a difference in the end product.

 

I suggest you try the original recipe, as close as you can get to it. Then make it again a bunch of times, tweaking things like the amount of hydration, amount of yeast, temperature of preferment, time of preferment, and powdered vs. fresh milk. I also highly recommend checking out thefreshloaf.com.

post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholas Beebe View Post

4. Butter should be fine.


Butter is, approximately, 80% fat, 20% water while margarine is 100% fat

 

So, according to my calculations, 12.65 Kg of margarine is 12.65 Kg of fat, which means 12.65/0.8 = 15.8125 Kg of butter which is composed of 12.65 Kg of fat and 3.1625 Kg (liters) of water, so I'd reduce the water by a corresponding 3.1625 Liters.

 

With the liquid milk versus powdered, I'd be concerned with the hydration, I'd probably reduce the water 1:1 for the milk, at least to try.

 

BTA, WTHDIK, I'm a cook, not a baker crazy.gif (actually a converted recycled Agricultural Engineer)
 

 

Chef,
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post #8 of 19

Margarine is not 100% fat. It sometimes goes as low as 50%.  Are you thinking of lard or shortening?

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatch View Post

Margarine is not 100% fat. It sometimes goes as low as 50%.  Are you thinking of lard or shortening?

Oops! Yeah, redface.gif

 

OK, unless the margarine in the original recipe was 80% fat, changing to butter will require some adjustments, I would think, to both the amount of butter and the amount of water. The actual adjustments would be rather difficult to calculate unless the details of the margarine used in the original recipe were known.


 

 

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post #10 of 19

With regards to the "degree of acidity", I do not have a direct answer but came across Acidity in Bread that might be interesting to bakers...

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post #11 of 19
You're trying to do too much AND going in the wrong direction. Find or create a recipe using whatever ingredients you plan on using in a size you can work with easily, then scale up. You're changing ingredients, which means you're using a different recipe anyway.

If this is a pastry with which you're already familiar, and you've got professional baking skills, perfecting a recipe shouldn't be too difficult. If you're not familiar with it, and you're not already a good baker, baking in those kinds of quantities is a recipe for disaster. At least think about going smaller and working in batches.

BDL
post #12 of 19

Keep in mind that reducing a baking recipe is different then a cooking recipe. Baking is a balanced formula based on ratios of X to Y. Where cooking is more opened and casual. In cooking if you like curry you can add more in baking you through off entire balanced  formula.

Chef EdB
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      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

With regards to the "degree of acidity", I do not have a direct answer but came across Acidity in Bread that might be interesting to bakers...


Very funny, Pete.

BDL
post #14 of 19

treading litely here.

You've been told that your formula will be different anyway. This is true.

Looking at this type of recipe as somebody that has been paid to do it. I would not attempt. If you have knowledge of what the finished product

should be like then I would take the original and transfer it to percentages. %of liquid, %fat,%flour etc. multip that to total 100% formula. an try.

 

The ph of any of our baking products is very important. There have been numerous post/questions as to why things go wrong in baking. I want to answer about

acidity but usually receive a blank star. maybe thats the funny part.

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post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post

treading litely here.

You've been told that your formula will be different anyway. This is true.

Looking at this type of recipe as somebody that has been paid to do it. I would not attempt. If you have knowledge of what the finished product

should be like then I would take the original and transfer it to percentages. %of liquid, %fat,%flour etc. multip that to total 100% formula. an try.

 

The ph of any of our baking products is very important. There have been numerous post/questions as to why things go wrong in baking. I want to answer about

acidity but usually receive a blank star. maybe thats the funny part.


The funny part comes if you follow the link to a scholarly, 1918, U.S. Army publication, which is far more chemistry than baking and because of its archaic style and threshold chemistry educational requirement would be very unlikely to increase many CT readers' quanta of knowledge.

I was not minimizing the importance of staying with a certain range of acidity, but enjoying Pete's suggestion that the paper would be helpful. Pete's sense of humor can fly over a few heads in general; and certainly would and has in this case as not many people would actually click the link. It appears as if my comment may have soared too close to the sun itself.

Otherwise, your advice is good. Looking at this type of recipe as somebody that has been paid to do it. I would not attempt, puts it about as well as it can be put.

BDL
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post

treading litely here.

You've been told that your formula will be different anyway. This is true.

Looking at this type of recipe as somebody that has been paid to do it. I would not attempt. If you have knowledge of what the finished product

should be like then I would take the original and transfer it to percentages. %of liquid, %fat,%flour etc. multip that to total 100% formula. an try.

 

The ph of any of our baking products is very important. There have been numerous post/questions as to why things go wrong in baking. I want to answer about

acidity but usually receive a blank star. maybe thats the funny part.

 

I know how the finished product should look like, I made it few times from small quantities, with different recipes (from different people)... but none of them tasted like it should. I have a taste in my head, and my tongue will recognize the taste when I get there. Until then I have to test different recipes. I selected this one because I'll have to end up making the dough from 10s of kilos of flour every day, so an "industrial quantity" already made and tested  formula (by the author of the book) is attractive.

Here is a picture of an earlier attempt.

 

cHw6t.jpg
 

In the same time with trying to find the perfect recipe (and taste), I'm building the machine to cook it too. The new machine will make between 5 and 8 end products in the same time.
 

 

post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken View Post

OK, unless the margarine in the original recipe was 80% fat, changing to butter will require some adjustments, I would think, to both the amount of butter and the amount of water. The actual adjustments would be rather difficult to calculate unless the details of the margarine used in the original recipe were known.


 

 



I didn't really think of that. Good catch. I suppose that without knowing the composition of the original margarine, the best you can do is pay attention to how wet the dough looks and feels. I guess it doesn't matter anyways, since even if you did use margarine, there isn't any guarantee that the margarine will have the same composition as what the authors of the recipe used.

 

Really, whether it is the butter, flour, or whatever, it's questionable how much of a difference each will make. The key will be to make the recipe a bunch while fiddling with all of this stuff to find out exactly how the end product works out.

post #18 of 19

iaon,

ah, I now recognoze your product. This is really not that unique. There is lots of public info doing

the same thing. I want to say there is some post here also.

 

I would like to say that if you are thinking of going industrial or manufacturing. Your formula will change drastically.

 

The funny part comes if you follow the link to a scholarly, 1918, U.S. Army publication,  

Oh, I forgot you guys were around thenlol.gif

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post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by panini View Post
...The funny part comes if you follow the link to a scholarly, 1918, U.S. Army publication,  

Oh, I forgot you guys were around thenlol.gif

Ooo, now THAT hurts rollsmile.gif
 

 

Chef,
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