or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Chef v. Cook - Page 3

post #61 of 76

Now that we have all that cleared up.

 

What is a "Master Chef"?..........................................

 

I now remove my iron clad, teflon lined  underpants and lay my cheeks bare, as I have done in the past with "Chef, "cook", and "professional".

 

I offer my definition of "master":

 

A "master" is a tradesperson who owns thier own business.

 

Master chef, master baker, master cabinet maker etc.

 

If you understand the guild system of old, you will understand the terminology.

 

In Europe, trades were apprenticed, (cooks being one of those trades) and apprenciships lasted anywhere from 3-7 years.  The people who undertook apprentices weren't stupid, they knew they were training up thier competition, and it was the guilds who decided who could set up a shop in town and who couldn't.  To set up a shop, a.k.a your own business,  you had to have a certain amout of "pull" with the guilds,

 

 

I'm not much on the history of the States, but I do know for a fact that prior to 1776 only a cabinet maker could make cabinets.  A  joiner or carpenter could not use specific techniques like dovetails or mortises on furniture, nor could he make such furntiure. only repair it. Those who ignored the guild rules were dealt with by the English army.  Unfortunately, the English placed more emphasis on other trades like metal and wood working than they did with cooking and baking.

Meh, N. America never did have a passion for apprenticeships.  Send 'em to school and let the employes train them up deal with them.

 

I digress .  I'm into my second week of December now, 12 hr days are the norm, but by the next week 16 hr days will be normal. Sundays are only 10 hrs. 

 

Where were we?

 A "Chef" is a term that your buddies call you when they want a day off? 

No?

When the waitresss wants a modifier for a high tippinig table?

No?

When  they culinary school you graduate from puts "Chef" on a 12 cent piece of paper?

No?

When you can bang out 48 a'la catrte lunches singled handlly PLUS a 40 seater lunch party  with just 10 minutes help from the dishwaher?

No?

 

I dunno, I give up.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
Reply
post #62 of 76

at a bank when you fill papers.

 

once it happen.

 

recorded conversation for an increase of an overdraft.

 

the clerk: what are you doing for work?

me: I am a cook!

the clerck: Ah! a chef!

 

as the years wet by it went worst!.

once you are placed in a box and you are still cooking and resolved to the fact that you have to tell them Chief!  a bit accepting it or not. OK after becoming Sous Chef you can accept the fact of sayig chef in english.

but in France you will say

"je suis cuisinier!"  ("I am a cook!")

 

like I wrote FoodPump "the Brits fault (The Red Coats!)". and the Frogs too! for years they have been fighting on all the the sense of the term. an they still do!. fashion! oh I have I have a bigger one than you!

 

Brits: I like that all of them should be call Chef!

Fren: Oh No Cooks! Translator Please!

Brit: But my wife is a cook! do you cook a home of course!

Taxman: do your wife recieve income for cooking at home?

Fen: Welllll!

Brit: NO!

 

 

 


Edited by Denis Dubiard - 12/11/11 at 1:50am
post #63 of 76

A chef must be an accomplished cook, a cook is definitely not a chef.   There are working chefs, a person who heads a group of cooks and is hands on in the kitchen, kind of like the captain of a football team.   There are also executive chefs who will head a group of perhaps a few hundred cooks (in a good hotel) and will rarely, if ever cook.  The executive chef will organize and administer, liaz between the Food and Beverage dept, Sales and Management.   And there are all the chefs who fit in between.   A chef designs, manages, tastes and directs.  He or she will write menus and figure out the best way to get the food to the guest, the cooks will carry out the chefs designs or find themselves looking for another job.   The "Brigade" in a french kitchen goes something like Executive Chef (head chef-chief) Executive Sous Chef (the executive chefs right hand first hands on chef of his office) Sous Chef (in a large hotel there can be a few, they carry out the executive sous chefs orders and supervise different sections in a hotel environment) Chef de Partie (a chef in charge of a particular dept, i.e.. pastry, butcher, sauces, etc) Cusinier (cook in the dept) Commis de rang (junior cook) Apprentice (someone in school or working to become a cook)

post #64 of 76

that is true and not true a cook can be an excellent cook too like careme for example.

 

then we are starting to get onto what we call racism comments.

 

at end of day a simple chef his still and will be a cook regarding its abilities if he is good or not.

 

and a Head Chef will be and will always be an Head Cooks

 

and Etc!............................................

post #65 of 76

KY and BDL are leading cooks around the world with their knowledge and advice.  Seems like that should count.

 

While I certainly appreciate your vote of confidence, Ben, no, it doesn't count. Not IMO.

 

My professional experience consists of working front of house, working as a dishwasher, and working as a short-order cook. None of these qualify me as a chef. If we're talking about a professional title (as opposed to the "everybody qualifies" approach of The Food Network), a chef is, simply, the person who runs a professional kitchen. It's not just about cooking. It's about supervising other cooks, and writing menus, and ordering food, and doing all the administrative tasks involved in what, in industry, we used to call departments but now call profit centers.

 

(S)he is, in short, the one in charge.

 

You can, in fact, liken it to the Navy. "Captain," is both a rank and a job. Anybody who has the job, no matter what the rank, is called "Captain," and entitled to the same respect and obedience as if he had the rank. So, lets say we're on a destroyer, and the captain actually has the rank of LT. You would, quite naturally, call him Captain. But would you extend the same courtesy to every LT? Of course not.

 

Oddly enough, while I am (or was) qualifited to take over a ship, I have never had the experience required to take over a kitchen. In short, I am not qualified to be a chef, and would not use the title. In fact, I correct people when they use it to describe me.

 

What I don't understand---although I recognize the fact---is the idea that being a cook is, somehow, demeaning. I'm proud to have been a professional cook, equally proud of my skills as a home cook. The key word is "cook." I would never describe myself as anything else.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #66 of 76

and so do I as a cook!.

 

in a proffessional kitchen tat would be different.

 

at the momment I have just one staff. and me cooking writing menu and the cooking and the training of that young chef, who has a small probleme (which is me!) plus the washing up too, and some shopping too and the accounting. and it is not my kitchen!.

what can I be call then!.

 

when I was on freelance in UK for 6 years>

my invoices always had on the Top Freelance Chef/Cook.

as no position of head chef or sous was offered to me! only god knows why!.

 

and in all matter of respect it is not disrespectful to be call a cook.

a chef these days I am wondering! it start to take a different turns with some examples given in the past. like one guy destroying imaculate 600 Artichock turned by my team and me and cooked for a master chef! and that guy who destroyed our work was A Chef and more of all A HEAD CHEF with no common senses.

 

to have the rank does that mean your good or shit!.

 

 

 

post #67 of 76

to have the rank does that mean your good or shit!.

 

Neither of the above. Whether Chef, Captain or Dishwasher, the word is (or should be) merely a job description. There are good chefs and bad ones; good captains and bad ones; even, I suppose, good and bad dishwashers. There is nothing in any of these descriptions regarding how well you do the job. They merely describe the job itself.

 

Part of the problem, here in the States, stems from the fact that, as professionals, we are descibed using the same words as nonprofessionals. After all, everybody knows how to cook. Everybody knows how to write. Therefore, there's nothing special about either of them---or so it translates in the popular imagination. Then comes the Food Network and the like, which dilutes their meanings even further.

 

Every organization has an hierarchy. But few of them involve title-ego then way cooking seems to have progressed. Among the things I've done, in my checkered career, was underwrite insurance. Above me was a head underwriter, who was in charge of the section, and above him a VP-underwriting, who ran the whole department.

 

Let's look a comparabilities. Although all analogies are faulty, this one can come close. We have a VP-underwriting (Chef), a head underwriter (sous chef or line supervisor) and underwriters (cooks). Nobody who did my job, if asked, would ever feel demeaned by replying "insurance underwriter," nor feel the need to elevate the job with a different title. Most jobs all in the same category. But, when it comes to cooking, we suddenly change normal behavior. It's not good enough, being a cook. We have to be chefs!

 

All I'm saying is that if you want to be called chef then get a job as one.

 

 

 

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #68 of 76

Being a cook is fine with me, being a good cook is great, being a great cook is something to which I aspire. 

 

I've had some professional experience in the food industry, but not that much in restaurants and there only as a cook and never a chef.  I chose "retired chef" as my Chef Talk description because it was closer than "other," and gave me entry into the professional  forums; but was never comfortable with the title -- especially using it for myself. 

 

When people whom I greatly respect call me "Chef," it makes me happy, proud and I don't argue. 

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 12/11/11 at 8:51am
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
What were we talking about?
 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com
Reply
post #69 of 76

WOW. Very interesting example/explanation/analogy. What Navy exactly were you in? 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

You can, in fact, liken it to the Navy. "Captain," is both a rank and a job. Anybody who has the job, no matter what the rank, is called "Captain," and entitled to the same respect and obedience as if he had the rank. So, lets say we're on a destroyer, and the captain actually has the rank of LT. You would, quite naturally, call him Captain. But would you extend the same courtesy to every LT? Of course not.

 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply
post #70 of 76

hey we are it is just a tittle for respect.

and even for a cook is as well.

 

one must feed its family ad do jobs that a chefs wwill not do because he is too stick up the Buts.

 

took many jobs in my career to explore all sides of the industry. even took one when my childrens was very small or even on the birth side of thing to lighten the suppose lady job as well as to bring food home and else.

 

but then you have some badmen. well it can happen on position of chefs!.

or so call as no understanding the meaning of Cooking for reason!.

or trying to understanding the reason of cooking.

 

the variation of the industry is so spread along in all the variety of all establishments catering outlets.

then the chefs will classfied in one section of the industry and the cook the other.

then they start a war of words just 2 words chefs vs cooks.

well may be that is a good study in modern world or anscient world of the sociologies and the developtment of certain historical events, events such as WAR>

 

 

post #71 of 76

I call myself Chef, not for my own ego, but for the Ego of others. In all the Restaurants, Caterings or whatever food service I was involved in, the name Chef, always made my customers feel more important. They were involved with the person that could change the course of their meal, the person in charge, the person to thank, the person they can brag to their friends about. I never really worried about this, I stopped by the table to make sure the meal was fine and to say hello. I can't control anything once they leave, so I figure it would be better to introduce myself and always give them an opportunity to voice their concerns. I started in this business as a Catering Steward in Hawaii, I worked hard in over 20 food services, Most would say I am a Chef, all I really enjoyed doing was cooking, doing it the best I could, for the people that I served. I always felt that cooking is a nice way to show someone you care, a good cook cares, it shows all over their face. A good cook walks away from a long busy day, not needing a slap on the back, a good cook already knows it, you could tell by the smile and content they show. A good cook doesn't have a big ego, it's called Pride.............................ChefBillyB.............But my friends can call me cook..........

post #72 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef Zev View Post

A chef must be an accomplished cook, a cook is definitely not a chef.   There are working chefs, a person who heads a group of cooks and is hands on in the kitchen, kind of like the captain of a football team.   There are also executive chefs who will head a group of perhaps a few hundred cooks (in a good hotel) and will rarely, if ever cook.  The executive chef will organize and administer, liaz between the Food and Beverage dept, Sales and Management.   And there are all the chefs who fit in between.   A chef designs, manages, tastes and directs.  He or she will write menus and figure out the best way to get the food to the guest, the cooks will carry out the chefs designs or find themselves looking for another job.   The "Brigade" in a french kitchen goes something like Executive Chef (head chef-chief) Executive Sous Chef (the executive chefs right hand first hands on chef of his office) Sous Chef (in a large hotel there can be a few, they carry out the executive sous chefs orders and supervise different sections in a hotel environment) Chef de Partie (a chef in charge of a particular dept, i.e.. pastry, butcher, sauces, etc) Cusinier (cook in the dept) Commis de rang (junior cook) Apprentice (someone in school or working to become a cook)



This is where I may take umbrage.

Using the definition we have hammered out before, the Chef is the boss.....period.

A boss need not be able to perform the intended job, but be able to motivate a groups of peers in the performance of the jobs duties.

Sure it would be nice in a real world situation where the person giving the orders knows what they are talking about, but as has been my experiences, this is not always the case.

post #73 of 76

This is where I may take umbrage.....

 

Particularly good with braised celery and sprinkled with lemon pepper.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist. redface.gif

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #74 of 76

Umbrage like vengeance is a dish best eaten cold. :)

 

post #75 of 76

thumb.gif

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #76 of 76

just a small teensy sidestep....

invariably when i am introduced to new people someone always says to me,"wow, you don't look like a chef". i'm not always sure how to take that or what it means even. do we look different/special somehow? ....do all teachers look alike? or doctors? or lawyers? or politicians? or.....?...just curious, and guess i just find it funny, sort of.....rolleyes.gif

joey

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

Reply

food is like love...it should be entered into with abandon or not at all        Harriet Van Horne

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Food & Cooking