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Wich POLISHING stone should I buy ?

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 

I guys...

 

I was a very happy guy with my chef's choice 130 and/or crappy stones that I used to buy on the flea market to sharpen my knives, after that I got "serius" with a Minosharp 1000 grit stone and I tought that it was the coolest thing on earth... Until I started reading you all and I realized that I was on diapers on this knives & sharpening stuff... Since then, my personal finances are going on a downward spiral and seems like it's getting worst by the hour... But at the same time I'm happier with my sharpening skills, so, I'm not blaming anybody for this new adiction.

 

Most of you know already my background and my current gear...

 

Mac Mighty knife.

Oishi 1000/6000 whetstone.

Stone holder.

Idanone "fine" (1200) ceramic rod

Nagura stone

 

Now I'm ordering a 1200 Bester stone.

 

Tojiro ITK Shirogami Wa-Gyuto 210mm Because I want to have some experience with a carbon knife (That's just like a project that I'm not caring too much about the outcome, is more a curiosity, so, I'm not getting deep on that, it's just too see how do I feel with a carbon knife, and if I like it, soon I'll get a  serious wa gyuto... But we'll open that can of worms in another ocasion)

 

My question is... Wich polishing stone to buy?

 

Here are the nominees:

 

Naniwa 8000 1Cm w/base (or 10,000 maybe) ?

 

Shapton glassStone 8000 ?

 

Kitayama 8000 ?

 

Naniwa snow white 8000?

 

All your feedback will be very appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!

Luispeace.gif

 

 

post #2 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis J View Post


Now I'm ordering a 1200 Bester stone.

 

Tojiro ITK Shirogami Wa-Gyuto 210mm Because I want to have some experience with a carbon knife (That's just like a project that I'm not caring too much about the outcome, is more a curiosity, so, I'm not getting deep on that, it's just too see how do I feel with a carbon knife, and if I like it, soon I'll get a  serious wa gyuto... But we'll open that can of worms in another ocasion)

 

My question is... Wich polishing stone to buy?

 

Here are the nominees:

 

Naniwa 8000 1Cm w/base (or 10,000 maybe) ?

 

Shapton glassStone 8000 ?

 

Kitayama 8000 ?

 

Naniwa snow white 8000?

 

All your feedback will be very appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!

Luispeace.gif

 

 


 

Wow, CKtG got more of the Tojiro Shirogami in!  I got one of the first batch and I think you'll be blown away!  It's mind boggling how good the knife is for the price.  It would be exceptional at twice the price.  You can get a "serious" knife if you want but I doubt it will cut better than this little Tojiro!  The only thing to complain about is the cheap handle and plastic bolster, but for $50 complaining about it would just make you a curmudgeon.  You could put a new handle on it and tell your buddies it was $150 and no one would blink an eye.  Fresh off my Yaninosha & Hideriyama Renge Suita it would put cut a Wal-Mart bag over an inch out.

 

I haven't used the Kitayama so I can't help you there, but the other three are good stones.  The GS is faster and a better cutter than most but feels a bit "hard."  I love the Snow White, and it's not outrageously expensive.

 

Do you have other carbon knives at all?  If you do (or maybe even if you don't) you might wanna consider this one:  http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hinako.html  I've found it works well on stainless and extremely well on HC.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #3 of 36

This one from CKtG is also a great one that won't break the bank-  http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hinak.html  The Ozuku Asagi..for some reason the link isn't working right.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #4 of 36

8K is overkill for a MAC Pro in a professional kitchen.  It won't hold the polish for long, and certainly not after the first time you use your rod.

 

The Kitayama is an incredible stone.  It leaves a slick, misty finish; but in my experience it's not easy to get it unless you use the Kitayama in tandem with something almost as fine or a little finer.

 

I really like the Pure White.  If you've decided to go after a real polish, it would be a great choice. 

 

The high grit Naniwa SS are very soft, soft to the point of being problematic.  I've lived with both the 8K and the 10K; and while they both work exceptionally well they're both such pains I can't recommend them. 

 

Mark's generic 10K magnesia stone is another great stone.  Phaedrus is right.  Between it and the Naniwa Pure White, I'd get whichever's cheapest. 

 

BDL

 


Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/1/11 at 6:14pm
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post #5 of 36
Thread Starter 

Thanks for your valuable info guys...

 

I had no idea that 8000 was too much for a Mac, but if that's the case, wich one will be the best finishing stone for it. Am I fine with my 6000 Oishi? I'll like to get the very best of my knife.

And Phaedrus, yes, the Tojiro is back in stock and I want to order it very soon along with the new stones, the comments on the knife are very good and is not costing an arm and a leg, actually very affordable for the kind of fedback that is going on.

 

And BDL, by the "Pure white" you mean the "snow white"? 

 

Best regards.

Luis

post #6 of 36

Jyunpaku translates as "snow white" or "pure white," no biggie.   

 

I like the Takenoko, which is 6K, but an overachieveing 6k.  Take it with a grain of salt, because I don't even have one.  I usually finishing my carbon Sabatiers with an 8K Naniwa SS (worn out, needs to be replaced, probably with a Gesshin 8K), so don't let my use of the word "overkill" frighten you. 

 

Fool around with this stuff Luis.  You're not going to hurt anything but your checking account by going too high.  And when you lose your beautiful 8 or 10K mirror polish by going to your rod it's not a problem, at least you had that edge for a while.  Just put it back on next time you sharpen.  You'll get a sense of what works for you and what doesn't.  The good news is that a polishing stone isn't going to put much wear on your edge. 

 

BDL

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post #7 of 36
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the info, it has been very helpfull...thumb.gif.

 

I took a look on the takenoko http://www.chefknivestogo.com/takenoko8000.html and I liked it, a bit more affordable than the snow white and according to your comments and the reviews on CKTG it's some kind of 6000 on steroids that polish like an 8000. I'll give it  try, maybe I'll get better results with the bester 1200 and takenoko 6000 than the ones that I'm getting with the oishi 1000/6000. Just like you said, I have to experiment to see how it works. I can't complain of my actual gear but this new combo may be a good step upward.

 

And now that we got into the subject... Instead of using the honing rod, I'm using the 6000 stone and just stropping, so far has been a good practice and the knife gets his sharpness back perfectly (But I don't let it get dull, by the time that I'm stropping, the knife has still a decent sharp edge) is that a healthy practice for the knife?, or is better to work with the knife until it "needs" to be fully sharpened because the rod is not helping the cause anymore.

 

Thanks a lot!peace.gif

post #8 of 36

Man, the Tojiro in Shirogami is already sold out!surprised.gif  150 knives in one freakin' day!  He's got another 150 coming in but not for a few weeks.  I'm glad I got mine already.  I'm anxious for the same thing in a 240mm.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #9 of 36

About an hour ago I sharpened a Ken Onion Shun chef's knife for a coworker.  I don't normally use my Japanese naturals on VG-10, but for kicks I used a natural Aoto followed by my Jyunsyouhonyama (from CKtG), and as always the results were terrific.  It finishes somewhere in the ballpark of 8k-10k give or take but leaves the edge a bit "bitey".  It's really nice if you work it awhile tog some slurry.  This is a really nice finishing stone for $50 IMOHO.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #10 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post

About an hour ago I sharpened a Ken Onion Shun chef's knife for a coworker.  I don't normally use my Japanese naturals on VG-10, but for kicks I used a natural Aoto followed by my Jyunsyouhonyama (from CKtG), and as always the results were terrific.  It finishes somewhere in the ballpark of 8k-10k give or take but leaves the edge a bit "bitey".  It's really nice if you work it awhile tog some slurry.  This is a really nice finishing stone for $50 IMOHO.



Thanks for the advice Phaedrus... Now that I'm not in a rush anymore (The Tojiros sold out!!!eek.gif frown.gif ) I'm going to take a loook on that Jyunsyouhonyama and some more stuff.

thumb.gif

post #11 of 36

Turns out CKtG only got 24 of the Tojiros.  The next batch will be 150 of the 210mm gyutos...but they won't be in for 3 weeks.laser.gif

 

Stone wise there's lots of good stuff out there!  Take your time and sort thru what's available. 

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post

Turns out CKtG only got 24 of the Tojiros.  The next batch will be 150 of the 210mm gyutos...but they won't be in for 3 weeks.laser.gif

 

Stone wise there's lots of good stuff out there!  Take your time and sort thru what's available. 



And of course, everyone on this forum has now arranged for CKtG to e-mail them when they come in.  biggrin.gif

post #13 of 36

Luis I think you will like the 6K as I know I was impressed with mine.

 

It does not seem to be too soft, and is much less rigid and offers a better feeling than the glass stone (I have a shapton 2K).

 

What I really like is that if you are sort on time you can just use it normally and get a good result, but if you like you can work up some mud and then finish off with a really light pressure and get it polishes even higher.

 

I have no experience with the others so can not offer any comparison.

 

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by pohaku View Post



And of course, everyone on this forum has now arranged for CKtG to e-mail them when they come in.  biggrin.gif



Funny because I was on the fence (as usual lol) but after finally deciding this would be a great way to experiment with carbon steel only to find it sold out when finally went to pull the trigger :)

 

Mark must be a happy man with having so many sold before they arrive!

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #15 of 36

The next one he's bringing to market is the same knife in a 240mm version.  It will be mine- oh yes, it will be mine...biggrin.gif

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Reply
post #16 of 36

Lots of competent folks doing it lots of different ways, but I don't like just stropping to true, unless it's (a) on a very fine stone or other material, (b) done with light pressure, and (c) the knife is deburred as necessary.  Stropping tends to pull a wire.  That said, the rules for truing -- fine surface, very light pressure, flipping sides with every strokes, as few strokes as necessary -- don't change from rod to stone.  If your stone's out, wet, and otherwise ready to go... why not?

 

Not a paragon by any means, but when I true on a stone it's with an edge leading/spine trailing stroke to avoid the wire thing. 

 

Don't hesitate to use a rod with your MAC.  You'll find your edges last longer and with a lot less work.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/6/11 at 8:09am
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post #17 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post



Funny because I was on the fence (as usual lol) but after finally deciding this would be a great way to experiment with carbon steel only to find it sold out when finally went to pull the trigger :)

 

Mark must be a happy man with having so many sold before they arrive!


That makes two of us! rolleyes.gif But for sure nex time I get the e-mail I'll buy it on the spot, and also I got in the list for the 24 inches! Lets see how many he gets and how long the supply lasts! Best regards... and the Arashimaya 6000 is on the way! let's see how it works!thumb.gif

 

post #18 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

Lots of competent folks doing it lots of different ways, but I don't like just stropping to true, unless it's (a) on a very fine stone or other material, (b) done with light pressure, and (c) the knife is deburred as necessary.  Stropping tends to pull a wire.  That said, the rules for truing -- fine surface, very light pressure, flipping sides with every strokes, as few strokes as necessary -- don't change from rod to stone.  If your stone's out, wet, and otherwise ready to go... why not?

 

Not a paragon by any means, but when I true on a stone it's with an edge leading/spine trailing stroke to avoid the wire thing. 

 

Don't hesitate to use a rod with your MAC.  You'll find your edges last longer and with a lot less work.

 

BDL


eek.gif I didn't know that stropping was a potential way to get pull the wire... I'll be extra carefull, and from now on, I'll use more my honing rod! Thanks for the imput, I appreciate it very much BDL !

 

post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis J View Post


eek.gif I didn't know that stropping was a potential way to get pull the wire... I'll be extra carefull, and from now on, I'll use more my honing rod! Thanks for the imput, I appreciate it very much BDL !

 

 

Everything in the sharpening arsenal has its place at some point.

 

I had 4 knives with stubborn wires. 3 Macs and a Chicago Cutlery. Looked under the 200X scope to confirm what I felt and then stropped them off on my chromium oxide charged strop. I was doing some straight razors anyhow so gave it a try on the knives. About 8 strokes all total and they were golden.

 

Jim

 

post #20 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeSavers View Post

 

Everything in the sharpening arsenal has its place at some point.

 

I had 4 knives with stubborn wires. 3 Macs and a Chicago Cutlery. Looked under the 200X scope to confirm what I felt and then stropped them off on my chromium oxide charged strop. I was doing some straight razors anyhow so gave it a try on the knives. About 8 strokes all total and they were golden.

 

Jim

 


Sounds cool Jim, thanks for the advice, I'll give it a try! thumb.gif

 

post #21 of 36

FWIW, a "wire" is a super-thin edge, a "burr" is an edge which has bent over slightly.  You can see a burr with magnification, a wire isn't so easy.  If you straighten a burr, you will sometimes be left with a wire; or you can and frequently do get a wire in the ordinary course of sharpening.  A wire can be very sharp indeed, but will "burr" quickly because it's so thin and weak.

 

My guess is that Jim straightened the burr on his strop, but kept the wire. Stropping is an excellent method of truing, except for its tendency to pull wires. Kitchen knives aren't razors.  As a rule, you can't strop wire edges off a knife.  Unless you're stropping on something incredibly grabby like felt, stropping will usually only make the problem worse.  But try it yourself.

 

There's a reason nearly everyone who sharpens deburrs in cork, felt or wood, or dissolves the burr on a stone -- because those things work quickly and reliably.  There's also a reason few -- if any -- experienced sharpeners recommend deburring on a strop.  When I finish my knives on a strop, I thoroughly deburr before going to the final polishing strop; and after polishing do the final deburr in felt AND cork.

 

BDL

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post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

FWIW, a "wire" is a super-thin edge, a "burr" is an edge which has bent over slightly.  You can see a burr with magnification, a wire isn't so easy.  If you straighten a burr, you will sometimes be left with a wire; or you can and frequently do get a wire in the ordinary course of sharpening.  A wire can be very sharp indeed, but will "burr" quickly because it's so thin and weak.

 


Eh..., burr is metal residu from the sharpening process; tiny metalparts are shaved (abraded) toward the edge and a part of them accumulate, curling up on the opposite side of the blade. That's burr, a brittle accumulation of metal particles. Burr appears in any abrading action performed on any piece of metal while filing, cutting, shapening on wheels or stones etc.

 

A "wire edge" as Dave Martell first pointed out a long time ago, is a burr stretching over a large part of the edge or even the whole edge of the knife. Unexperienced sharpeners will sharpen that wire of burr...

That's why deburring, as often as you can, in the sharpening process is necessary. The coarser your stones and the more downforce used, the larger the burr but,.. the easier it gets off. Best to get it off asap as soon as it appears. I simply slide my knife edges gently through a piece of soft pinewood until it's gone, even when only one side of the knife is done. Don't wait to the end of the sharpening to deburr, but do it as often as you can while sharpening, way before it gets to the polishing stones. You don't want to polish a brittle wire edge. If you do that, soon some metal particles (polished burr) will break off and you will think the knife is made of bad steel...!

Finer grits and polishing stones will produce very little burr as the downforce you use on the knife is much less, but occasional deburring is good.

 

An edge that has bent is no more than an edge that has bent over. Happens all the time with softer (read European) knives when cutting. That's why chefs steel their knives, sometimes many times during service, to straighten the edge again. It has nothing to do with burr.


 

 

post #23 of 36

Chris has described one type burr formation, "deposit;" but described it poorly in my opinion. So called deposit burrs are mostly at issue with high speed sharpening, and sharpening "flat" edges like skates, than they are for knives. Consequently, rather than recovering unimportant ground, I'll concentrate on what relates to the practical discipline of knife sharpening.  That will also act as a defense and more academic restatement of what I said earlier, as well as my response to Chris.

 

More important to sharpeners than deposit burrs is the other, and more common type of burr formation, "bending."  If you're interested I suggest reading Verhoeven's "Experiments in Knife Sharpening," paying particular attention to pp. 2, 3 and 4 (note also that Verhoeven begins with a discussion of deposit burrs which you may compare with Chris's remarks).  [The paper is available on a number of sites.  It's not the last word on sharpening, but there's a lot of good information, helpful illustrations and some wonderful SEM (scanning electron microscope) photos.  Verhoeven, like John Juranitch, has strong connections with the commercial meat/butchering industry.]

 

In particular, from pp. 3-4: 

Bending:      The width of the blade at the edge and just behind it is extremely thin.
Hence the force against the edge from the abrasive media will result in large stresses,
force per area, at the edge, which can lead to plastic flow (bending) of the edge region...              

(Some   authors... call   this   deformed   edge   and
accumulated metal debris a "wire", but the term bur will be used here.)       

 

Burs that fold around the edge can be called fold-over burs and they
have a variety of shapes...                                     

 

The edge burs show little bur material and appear to

be   edges   that   have   simply   been   rounded   during   sharpening.                                              I
However, such edges will be termed "edge burs" here to indicate
a type of edge formed in sharpening that differs from a fold-over
bur.

 

Books   that   discuss   sharpening   of   steel   blades...

consistently recommend the detection of fold-over burs    

as   a   guide   to   good   sharpening   technique.  

 

Formation of a uniform bur along the   sharpened edge indicates that the
sharpened   face   has   been   extended   uniformly   out   to   the   edge.
The bur formation is easily detected by the well trained eye or
the    use    of  a   fingernail     and   serves     as  a   good    guide     for
determining when to flip the blade over and grind the opposite face...
 

To argue against what Verhoeven says about burrs (or "burs" as he calls them) is silly for anyone who claims to understand the basic mechanics of sharpening.  Creating, detecting, and using the "bending" burr is central to what I call "burr method" sharpening -- pulling a burr, chasing the burr, and deburring -- a la Juranitch, Bottorff, Ward, and many others including me, and the mechanics have been well understood for quite some time.  I won't speculate on why anyone doesn't get it, the information is certainly available.

 

Speaking of deburring and strictly as an FYI, deposit burrs usually don't require chasing (another name for fatiguing) for removal.  The edge/burr intersection is already quite fatigued, the burrs most often form with very coarse abrasives, and since polish doesn't need to be preserved they can usually be brushed off with a stiff wire brush.

 

Hope this helps,

BDL

 

PS.  This thread is being too pulled far away from its original intent; and is degenerating to tit for tat.  It's something like playing peek-a-boo with a two year old; fun for awhile, but the toddler finds the game more interesting over time than an adult.


Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/8/11 at 5:55pm
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post #24 of 36

Caramba and zut alors!  Not another BDL post. 

 

Sorry, cannot add to the above post.  Too many edits already, done is done is overdone.

 

I wouldn't mind discussing the Verhoeven article though, in relation to "depositing" burrs or anything else. 

 

Regarding those, my thumb tells me depositing burrs feel rougher and more "splintery" than bending burrs, and it's not too difficult to distinguish them.  Broad but not unlimited experience leads me to believe they only develop when using fairly coarse grits on fairly high speed machines, e.g., Verhoeven's Tormek.  Consequently, I don't think they're important in a discussion regarding hand sharpening at typical kitchen knife grits.  Verhoeven speculates that depositing grits are also formed with a strop stroke, by pulling the edge through a dirty surface strata; but I think it's more likely the strop action "stretches" the edge and forms an ordinary bending burr. 

 

Another thing -- and maybe it's the most important point -- you have to be very careful with language when you discuss sharpening at a hyper-technical level.  There's lots of jargon but almost all of it's ambiguous.  Never assume you know what someone's talking about just because they use terms with which your familiar like "wire edge," "burr," "primary bevel," "'V' grind," etc.  They could mean something very different than you and it's always a good idea to make sure you're on the same page before following advice.  What could it hurt? 

 

BDL

 

 

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post #25 of 36

Many knifenuts that frequently visited the other wellknown knifeforums, have learned how to sharpen from thé sharpening expert, Dave Martell. So have I.

Dave sharpened more Japanese knives than anyone else afaik. He now has his own knife forum and published a nice list where you can read what he says about "burr" and "wire edge".

Here's the page, just scroll down to the items mentioned; http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2023-Kitchen-Knife-Glossary

 

I consider my explanation very correct. I'm very, no, extremely surprised you don't agree! It has nothing to do with language, Boar, it has to do with your interpretation of Verhoeven's publishing.

Now, I really wonder what you mean when you recommend to others things like "raising a burr"..??

Once more to please you; An edge that bends is straightened with a steel, chefs have done so with softer steel European knives (Wusthof...) and still do so. Steeling is not sharpening, it's straightening the edge. Many of these chefs have their Euro knives sharpened by a specialized service... once a year!

 

Japanese knives are much tougher and will not bend that easy, it's more likely that a tiny piece of steel will simply break off instead of bending. That's why tough Japanese knives are sharpened on stones instead of passed along a steel; there's simply no edge to be straightened. The higher Rockwell value and the higher the knives are tempered, the more they will chip instead of bending. Again, a bending edge has nothing to do with burr formation. Burr formation is induced by sharpening (amongst other actions that I have also aready mentioned).

 

For those interested, there's also a page on stropping/deburring on leather on Dave's forum; http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1822-Stropping-De-Burring-with-Leather


Edited by ChrisBelgium - 11/9/11 at 4:39am
post #26 of 36

I'd like to add two more options when talking about polishing stones. They are natural stones appreciated even since the Romans.

They are found in my own country and known as coticule and BBW (Belgian Bleu Whetstone).

The coticule is estimated around 8k, the BBW around 3k. I'm not going to bore you with my biased opinion, here's a thread from another knifeforum in which they are talked about. The opening person is known as a very experienced sharpener with a hughe collection of stones and he also mirror-polishes blades for others using -among others- tiny Japanese natural fingerstones. Enjoy, there's also a link in that thread to the source where you can get these stones;

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2227-Coticule&highlight=coticule

 

Maybe one more thing; if I were a pro chef, I would always carry a BBW. So easy; it needs just a sprinkle of water, no soaking and you're good to tweak your knife. Rince stone and dry with a cloth, done! Same for the coticule. Both stones work differently when you first extract some mud from these stone with a smaller one. When done so, the stones sharpen very fast with a mat finish. When only water is used, they produce a mirror polish, especially the coticule. One last thing; they aren't cheap but they will last at least your lifetime!

These are mine. The irregular one on the right is an "ultrafine", mostly used to smoothly whet shaving blades. I use it for my pettys, I like them extremely sharp. (click to enlarge the image);

coticuleAndBelgianBleu1.jpg

 

post #27 of 36

Chris,

 

Your link to Dave Martell's site was to a vocabulary page.  I read it in its entirety and didn't find anything about "deposit" burrs, just a bunch of stuff that's in line with the things I said.  I read the entire page, searched for "burr" several forms of "deposit," and several forms of "residue," but no joy in terms of deposit burrs for either burr formation or deburring. 

 

Dave's entry on burrs had very little about the physical process of burr formation beyond the practical reality of formation as a byproduct of sharpening.  Here it is in its entirety:

Burr – A raised edge or small piece of steel remaining attached to the blade after grinding or sharpening. This is a natural byproduct of the sharpening process. Just like modeling clay being formed into peaks by hand will develop uneven, super thin portions the size of your fingers, steel will form the same peaks of weak material the size of the particles being used to abrade it. The solution is to either deburr the edge, or wear it down through a rigorous process of refinement.

As you can read, this is along the lines of what I've written dozens of time on this forum.  But maybe I missed what you meant, could you please furnish a quote from the linked page?

 

I did read Dave's description of wire edges, and he's in total agreement with what I've repeatedly said here in CT and on other boards. For instance:

Chasing the Burr – Sharpening on alternate sides of the blade until you can feel or otherwise detect the burr on one side, then abrading it, until it flips to the other side. The goal is to weaken the burr(s) like a tab on a soda can, so that it will eventually pop off when deburring. Chasing the burr is not necessary if you are handling burrs and wire edges through careful and complete refinement.

and:

Removal of a wire edge is the same as deburring, since a wire edge is a type of burr.

and:

Wire Edge – A burr that is uniform, and runs the length of the cutting edge. Often mistaken by novice sharpeners for a satisfactory edge. Though it is very sharp, it is structurally weak, and due to the hard use kitchen knives see, it will need to be removed, or the edge will fail.

 

I happen to know that Dave believes in deposit burrs.  He's written about metal "finding a new home on the edge" [not a direct quote, but the flavor's right] several times.  I don't know if that's the only type of burr he thinks is important or not, and don't much care.  He's not an expert in the scientific aspects of the subject in the same way Verhoeven is.   

 

Here's the quote and link:

Let's face it, if you sharpen a steel tool you're going to get a burr at the edge. You know, that little peice of steel that's been abraded away from it's home and is hanging on for dear life.

[Sic] Cf Sept 30, 2009, entry

 

Dave's belief's aside, you misrepresented your own linked citation.  Credibility?  Not so much.

 

Name dropping the American sharpening community isn't going to work terribly well for you -- at least not with me.  While I don't know Dave in the same way I know Jon (for instance), I keep up with his blog, his posts on KF and Fred's, and have had a few email/PM conversations with him about sharpening.  We're online "friendly acquaintances," very much on the same page, and I've taken a lot from him over the past six or seven years as my own sharpening style moved away from what it was to what it is.  He's one of the foremost modern sharpeners, especially for traditional Japanese style edges.

 

That said, arguing with Verhoeven by citing Dave Martell is very weak.  Dave will certainly get your knife sharper, but Verhoeven is THE AUTHORITY on physical processes.  He's a legitimate scientist, full professor (emeritus), materials guy, metallurgist, pioneer in the field, author of the classic, "Fundamentals of Physical Metallurgy, author of the more recent "Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist,"  etc., etc. 

 

Dave is nice, knowledgeable, an honest merchant, an expert practical sharpener, and all sorts of other good things, but he's not in the same league as Verhoeven when it comes to this sort of stuff. Whether you honestly don't realize that, or are throwing stuff against the wall in the hope something will stick is not for me to say.

 

Our disagreement is not about "[my] interpretation of Verhoeven's publishing," which I not only understand quite well but which I posted above, it's about your writing which I found unclear; and your correction of me which I was gratuitous and unedifying.

 

What's are your empirical, theoretical and/or academic bases for your disagreement with Verhoeven regarding "bending" burrs? 

 

Getting down to cases:  While I'm not by any means the world's foremost expert -- or an "expert" of any sort, I know what I'm talking about, my positions are researched as well as experience based, drawn and synthesized from a wide variety of sources, and very middle of the road.  Quit being so competitive and wasting so much time trying to prove me wrong.  And for God's sake knock off the various innuendo you use to suggest that I'm ignorant; not an expert; not a professional; learned everything I talk about from the internet; don't have "real" experience; the invidious comparison implied when you write that you "only talk about knives you own;" etc., etc., ad nauseum.    The whole thing is tiresome and makes you appear foolish -- which you aren't -- to anyone left who might still care. 

 

Nice photographs, btw.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 11/9/11 at 10:08am
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post #28 of 36
Thread Starter 

eek.gif Wow!! This got more technical than I was expecting, but full of great information. The funny thing is that I've pulled a wire from my knives years before and I didn't even know that there was a name for that... I have no idea how to call it in spanish, of course I can translate it literally but no one will understand me. It's been a very educational post for me, from all the written, I have at least a couple of things to correct in my technique ( I see that I was deburring in a good way and at the right moment with the cork, but my stropping was not the healthiest one -I was counting strops per each side, then flipping to the other side, and I was doing it with medium pressure- Now I'll do it with less pressure and flipping from one side of the knife to the next side each time.

 

So far the imput on the many stones is great an I appreciate to everyone for sharing your experience with me, I got the Arashiyama 6000 that is supposed to give higher polish than the claimed 6000, lets see how it goes with the Mac... In a very near future, I'll buy a "Lasser", I'll open that can of worms soon, and of course I'll ask you all about it, but I'll do it when the time comes closer, now, along with the stones, I ordered a Tojiro shirogami "Nakiri" and a "santoku", I'm not very fond of those two knives, but since the santoku is small (165mm) I'll give it a try as if it were a long petty, and I got a Nakiri, that is the knife shape that I use to carve the laquered ducks in the dinning room of my place. I don't need them that much, but I want to use them as "training wheels" for sharpening and to see if I can live with carbon steel. Once that I get more experience, I'll jump into more knives and finer grit stones. Let's see how it goes, and you can count on my nooby questions!

 

I see that several of you use and recomend natural stones too, maybe in my next knife order, I'll get one of those too just to get the feeling and to get the full experience.

 

Best regards amigos, and again... Thanks!!

post #29 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post

I'd like to add two more options when talking about polishing stones. They are natural stones appreciated even since the Romans.

They are found in my own country and known as coticule and BBW (Belgian Bleu Whetstone).

The coticule is estimated around 8k, the BBW around 3k. I'm not going to bore you with my biased opinion, here's a thread from another knifeforum in which they are talked about. The opening person is known as a very experienced sharpener with a hughe collection of stones and he also mirror-polishes blades for others using -among others- tiny Japanese natural fingerstones. Enjoy, there's also a link in that thread to the source where you can get these stones;

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2227-Coticule&highlight=coticule

 

Maybe one more thing; if I were a pro chef, I would always carry a BBW. So easy; it needs just a sprinkle of water, no soaking and you're good to tweak your knife. Rince stone and dry with a cloth, done! Same for the coticule. Both stones work differently when you first extract some mud from these stone with a smaller one. When done so, the stones sharpen very fast with a mat finish. When only water is used, they produce a mirror polish, especially the coticule. One last thing; they aren't cheap but they will last at least your lifetime!

These are mine. The irregular one on the right is an "ultrafine", mostly used to smoothly whet shaving blades. I use it for my pettys, I like them extremely sharp. (click to enlarge the image);

coticuleAndBelgianBleu1.jpg

 


Already in my wish list! thumb.gif I like the idea of having a "fast" or "splash and go" stone... And more if it's a natural one!

 

post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post

I'd like to add two more options when talking about polishing stones. They are natural stones appreciated even since the Romans.

They are found in my own country and known as coticule and BBW (Belgian Bleu Whetstone).

The coticule is estimated around 8k, the BBW around 3k. I'm not going to bore you with my biased opinion, here's a thread from another knifeforum in which they are talked about. The opening person is known as a very experienced sharpener with a hughe collection of stones and he also mirror-polishes blades for others using -among others- tiny Japanese natural fingerstones. Enjoy, there's also a link in that thread to the source where you can get these stones;

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2227-Coticule&highlight=coticule

 

Maybe one more thing; if I were a pro chef, I would always carry a BBW. So easy; it needs just a sprinkle of water, no soaking and you're good to tweak your knife. Rince stone and dry with a cloth, done! Same for the coticule. Both stones work differently when you first extract some mud from these stone with a smaller one. When done so, the stones sharpen very fast with a mat finish. When only water is used, they produce a mirror polish, especially the coticule. One last thing; they aren't cheap but they will last at least your lifetime!

These are mine. The irregular one on the right is an "ultrafine", mostly used to smoothly whet shaving blades. I use it for my pettys, I like them extremely sharp. (click to enlarge the image);

coticuleAndBelgianBleu1.jpg

 


I wholeheartedly agree with Cris here, the coticle is one of the best finishers you can buy, and here's why, the makeup of this stone is garnet packed tightly which are mostly round or geodesic, actualy, instead of a sharp crystaline like a diamond. If you can imagine all of these sharp little round molicules rubbing the sharp gouges that the previous stone made. If you have ever seen a ball bearing buffer for silver it work in the same manner. Now I happen to use a straight razor (not to cook of couse) and they word wonderfully. There is one problem, you don't always know what grit they are without using them or someone classifying the stone. Here is a well known dealer http://thesuperiorshave.com/Coticules.html#cases . If it works on a razor it'll work on your knife edge no problem. If you need more info on shrapening look for some straight razor forums here are some great forums.http://straightrazorplace.com/content/   http://www.badgerandblade.com/      These sites are crazy about sharpening. If you do happen to get into straight razor shaving don't tell your wife how mush you spent. In my opinion natural stones are far superior to man made stones whether it be a Japanese stone or a German thuringian or belgium coticle go au natural.

I have another trick though, I bought a little pocket microscope from Ebay for about ten bucks, so you can actually see what you are doing to your edge.

 

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