Masamoto vs Konosuke vs Kikuichi

Tell us what makes you not like the Macs.

 

Of the others, the Konosuke is a "laser".  A particularly thin knife.  The others aren't.  I haven't handled either the Masamoto or the Kikuichi.  I'm not sure what "equivalent alloy" versions are, either. That is, the VG is a stainless.  Kikuichi has stainless and semi-stainless; as does Konosuke.

 

I've "waved around" the Konosuke HD (semi-stainless).  I have a Kagayaki CarboNext, which is said to be the same knife as the Kikuichi TKC, with some difference in the bolster and handle. I think the CarboNext is a great knife at the price; I'm not altogether in love with mine.  I have other knives I reach for first.  Mine has a mild over-grind, which so far doesn't get in the way of anything (it might as the knife gets sharpened away, over a long time).  But it bugs me that it's there, and I didn't know how to recognize it when it was new.

 

Anyway, thin knife, but certainly not Konosuke-thin.   So do you want a "laser"? If so, your choice is made.  Go Konosuke.  If not, then you've eliminated one.

It's not much of an answer.... lasers are appealing. As BDL says, they take a bit more technique.

 

My only experience with a laser is with a petty knife (it's 210mm, so big for a petty, but small for a chef's).  It's ... astounding.  For hard squashes, sweet potatoes, potatoes, I use it because the narrow blade means less sticking. It's a different beast from thicker knives; I have a laser 270mm gyuto on a wish list.  But with my skills, I'm fine with a not-quite-so-thin knife.  I'd go Masamoto before Kikuichi, but that's by reputation, and because the CarboNext is perhaps too close to the Kikuichi TKC for me to really be attracted to the latter.  Price point buying made big difference for me, there.

 

Do you have a more robust knife already? I'd not want a laser as my "one and only" chef's knife, at least not unless I really knew what I was getting into with cutting skills.

You ask about Kikuichi but then say you need stainless capabilities.  I've pretty much never see any reviews or comments on the Kikuichi moly or VG10 series, everyone who buys a kikuichi seems to buy the TKC with is semi-stainless.  I have the carbonext, which is supposedly essentially the same as the TKC, and aesthetically I'm not all that happy with it.  There is the japanese kanji which is kinda blah to look at but also the whole concept of having it get a slight patina, as if that was something sexy, hasn't really panned out for me. Rather, I'd say the knife gets blotty if it's not perfectly cleaned and wiped dry.  I'm going to try to sell it to Phaedrus for $40, he just doesn't know it yet.  Muahaha.

Using dull knives seems to be distorting your technique.  With sharp knives, if you're not push cutting (straight down) it's easier to slide them forward through hard foods; some people draw them back (towards their bodies) with very soft foods.  Drawing the knife point through is good for special cuts, but for ordinary chopping it usually comes from a dull knife whose edge won't quite cut through.   

 

BDL

I am much happier with the CarboNext than I was with the Wusthof Classic or the Messermeister Meridian Elite, which are both very good German knives. My only issue that there's a slight overgrind, which looks like the back of the knife is "dished" slightly toward the tip.  I'm not at the point where that's really a practical issue, but I don't know if it's deep enough to become one once I sharpen down to that level where it's deepest. I've got a little ways to go to get there, but it may interfere with the edge at that point.  The knife is a very good cutter indeed.  The profile seems very good, too (though I'm not such a great cutter myself to be all that nuanced in my assessment).  It sharpens super easily -- the steel is good for that -- and seems like it has very good edge retention.  I'm a home cook and use an end-grain cherry/walnut board, so edge retention doesn't get tested the way it would for a pro.

 

Then again, the edge retention is particularly good because I use my Yoshihiro gyuto or Sab more than half the time, and my petty still gets its time in for "gyuto tasks" just because for small, 1-person meals I value the lack of "stiction" overly highly.

The easy answer is I can use the chef's knife du jour for most all of it. That would likely be the Yoshihiro gyuto. Or the Sab. Sab is in the knife block so quicker access than the Yoshi, The Yoshi is kept in a saya since it's a tad long for the block. But it's stainless so more mindless if cutting onions. If I'm dicing onions smalls, I use my petty. It's a 210mm suji shaped Gesshin Ginga. The super thin blade is nice for the original series of cuts at least. The taller blades are netter if doing lots of mincing chopping etc., but I rarely cut a whole lot per meal. Same holds true if doing more than a little slicing or esp smaller cits of0 potatoes etc.. I have a six inch petty I'd use for pork if I were portioning I guess. It's super rare that I cook meat or serve cheese though, haven't really worked out what I'd do if I were more omnivorous.
Typing from a phone, here, so I hope that's all coherent. I will edit later!

Edit later -- because my petty is my "best knife" -- or my best cutter, a true laser, I use for things I'd otherwise use a gyuto for, had I a similar laser gyuto. So don't do what I do, I'm no role model in this regard.

A 6" petty can be used where you'd normally (or other people would recommend) a parer, it's a small slicer -- reading from the Book of BDL it's pretty much ideal for portioning meats, too; and it's a good utility knife. I reach for a 6" knife when cutting apples.

If I were doing larger batches of onions, and dicing them, I'd probably use the Yoshi gyuto; but just doing one, I like the laser, so I use the petty. It just falls through for the vertical or radial cuts, and also for the horizontal cuts if I'm doing a trad- dice. You don't get that "guillotine and glide" motion (pace BDL) for the final dice because of the shape of the blade, so that's why I would use the gyuto or the Sab if I were doing larger quantities.

I hope that fills-in... really I'm an enthusiast, and have put in time to researching knives and cutting with them as an enthusiast might, but I'm a n00b. I've got some redundant knives, because it took that to learn what I like. And I don't know... I might want them because I just like them for their differences. I could see getting a Konosuke (for example) and parting with either the Yoshihiro or the Sab, keeping just one of the not-so-laser knives. But I don't like the idea of parting with either of them just yet, either. I'd have to see one of them get dis-use for a while before giving it away.

The CarboNext would get more consideration in this discussion if it were 270mm. I still think that thing's a pretty screaming deal, actually, if you're committed to getting it sharpened well. It's not as "sexy" as the others, as racineboxer has described, but I don't think it's an ugly knife at all, personally. And I'm not even bothered by the name (which on other forums is roundly ridiculed).

I'm a huge fan of the Gesshin Ginga knives, which have about the same geometry as the Konosuke. I'm therefore also a huge fan of the Konosuke knives. Though I haven't cut food with one. That's on the short list (a 270 Kono gyuto, probably HD; or if stainless, just as soon the GG gyuto). And I lust after even more expensive things.... but I can't justify spending the money on what I think are even more beautiful knives. Especially given most of the kinds of food I cut. Had I lottery winnings, I'd be spending a fair amount on much higher-end things, even. No *practical* reason for that, probably. I'd like a laser gyuto with good food release (for potatoes and sweet potatoes and such). I'd like a more robust knife that was thin enough to cut like like a laser, but not a true laser, too.

And I'm pretty well set with what I have, as far as actual needs, too.
Edited by Wagstaff - 12/15/11 at 7:59pm

 

Not Wagstaff but I'm the other person that criticized the carbonext.

 

Well... I use the carbonext to essentially cut all those things, more or less.  Well maybe not cheese... but that's just because I don't cut much cheese...  And I don't cut bones with it...

 

Like wag said, I think the carbonext is a great "cutter".  To me the knife is light, nimble, sharpe, nice profile, sharpens easily, gets very sharp, maintains it's edge well, etc...

 

I think quite a few professionals love the knife because of those attributes, along with it's price point.  I think it's functionality is excellent regardless of price.

 

My dissatisfaction is pretty much 95% aesthetics.  It's shallow... but I'm a big enough boy to admit that and I'm comfortable in my own skin :)

 

For me... a nice knife adds joy to the cooking process.  A nice knife has a certain prestige factor.  If these knives we're talking about were $500 each I'd be stuck.  But since we're talking $120-$170 I can survive buying a knife, selling it for a significant loss, then buying a new one.  Which is my plan.  Anyone want a 2 month old 240mm carbonext?  :) 

Hey racine... wish that were 270mm if it were for me (another reason it's not my favored knife is I didn't yet know I really preferred 270mm at the time I bought it)... but if you'really talking 40bucks, I could take that off your hands as a xmas gift. Couple people I know would dig that.

Hey man... pretense I hope not... (not sure)... but no judgment.  You're asking the same questions I'd been asking less than a year ago.  I'm NOTHING like expert. We've got some real cooks, and real cutters, and real sharpeners, with some experience across a much wider range of knives than I, posting here.  My main gurus post here.  (I participate in other knife forums as well... but it's hard to add much given budgetary constraints.  So many interesting things I can't afford to buy, so don't have opinions on -- both knives and stones, in particular).  Anyway, I'm just wordy.  But you're welcome -- sharing enthusiasms is fun and educational!

OK. I love all this knife talk. I really do. Please don't misunderstand anything I'm gonna say. I've never seen any "prestige factor" of any kind in a pro-kitchen. I've never seen any really good pro-chef have any care what kinda knife anyone had either, as long as they were sharp. It's kinda funny too, but over 85% of the really good guys I've worked with, had German or French knives. They were solid blades, stiff and heavy. One of the best kitchens I've worked in used boring NSF stuff contracted in every third day. Always sharp, always there. 

 

NSF Commercial Chef's Knives

8-inch $9.95 ea.    10-inch $12.95 ea. 

 

Good thing I'm not into knives because I want prestige in a pro kitchen!

 

The thought is well taken, though.  Sharp comes first for the tool, and the tool is not the goal.

The restaurant I worked in used beater knives, pans, pots, etc...  that doesn't mean I want that ugly, used & abused crap in my house, functional or not.  To me it's perfectly understandable that a pro-kitchen would be mostly all about functionality and a home user would put more priority on aesthetics and prestige.  It's the same reason someone buys a copper coated saute pan for $200, or a Le Creuset dutch oven for their home (while the kitchen buys the $25 saute pan from the industrial distributor).

 

 

Heavier probably felt more invitational to cook because it's more like what you're used to.  You may prefer heavier; the trend (and the way it's talked about here, certainly) is more toward lighter, sharper knives. Any "work" the weight does for you could be better done by sharpness; lighter knives are less fatiguing if you're cutting a lot and invite more finesse vs "powering through" cuts.  Differences can be small, at this stage.  Also, at least a couple of guys I've read here and on another forum are very anti- sanmai (cladded) knives; this is nothing like universal and I'm agnostic on the issue, personally; I just point it out so you think about that difference, at least along with the visual, between the various Kikuichi knives.  IIRC, the VG-Gold is sanmai, the TKC is monosteel.

 

Edited by Wagstaff - 12/16/11 at 7:48am