Need help deciding between Hattori HD and Konosuke HD Gyuto Xmas purcahase

Well its been over a year since I found this forum (my absolute favorite cooking/Knife forum BTW) and I have had enough time with my choices from last year to have an idea on what I really want to add to my collection this holiday season.

 

I was originally going to try to add to my "set" and was looking at a slicer (suji) or a longer petty (180-210 etc) but after thinking long and hard about this for a while now I have decided that since my current Fujiwara FKM 240 Gyuto see the most use by far it may be better or will be better to purchase a higher end Gyuto to allow me to compare low end to high end etc and then be able to make a more experienced decision for future purchases.

 

I have settled down to two knives as they both seem to be excellent quality, and have great reviews from most everyone who has written one.

 

The choices are a Hattori HD  v/s  Konosuke HD  both in 240mm Gyuto.

 

Have to admit two things so you know before you share your thoughts (and please do so quickly as I am running out of time lol) one is that I do seriously like the looks of the damascus blade on the Hattori (really Maruyoshi) but am so intrigued by the benefits of the semi carbon or semi stainless steels that it has the logical or analytical side of my brain on fire.

 

So which do you believe to be the better choice, and why?

 

Oh and don't be shy let it fly!!!

 

 

Edited by LennyD - 12/17/11 at 12:40pm

I really thought with all the talk about the Konosuke lately (here and around the net etc) that someone here would have a really good opinion on why I am nuts for even comparing these two knives.

 

I also thought it would be interesting to see a comparison of what is perceived to be a good VG10 Gyuto to a great semi stainless one.

 

Could it be that even though so totally different the results are more similar than I thought?

 

Am I just letting the "cool" factor of the Damascus pattern and my inexperience get the better of me, or is it that the experience I do have with VG10 has been good and it is a safe feeling or purchase?

 

Also since I really had a $200 budget for this and both are just above that would a 270MM be worth going even more over budget?

 

One important thing I forget for the original post is if there is a real difference between the WA and YO handle versions? I see on CKTG that there is plenty of room for improvement in listing specs and descriptions but also that they show a big diff in weight and also spine thickness. Should this be of any concern as well?

 

Now c'mon guys and girls lets hear your thoughts.

 

 

Wag you seem to be on a roll lately, and thanks for keeping me laughing :)

 

Though I may have a decision made for my purchase solely due to what is left in stock now (damn I got to stop procrastinating lmao) I honestly am not sure if it is better to have made a decision based on appearance and performance plus value, or appearance alone of even just performance alone.

 

In reference to your point on the san mai and dead or muted feeling on the Hattori that really seems to be the only real negative I have seen (most others I did find were not issues for me etc) and even this seems to a personal thing.

 

Another thing for "most" to keep in mind is that there is a point where things become the splitting of hairs so to speak and also have to keep in mind when reading comparisons or reviews that what the writer is comparing to is as important if not more so than what is being reviewed.

 

It all comes down to what skills and experiences each individual may have, and therefore what their expectations may be.

 

I am fully sure that I would be happy with either of these knives, and there is no real question there as both are superior to what I am using now (and what I am using now is so far superior to what I have used in the past it is not funny) but still wanted to be able to compare these very nice but very different knives.

 

 

 

 

Phaedrus

 

I think your going to have to let us know what you think of that Nubatama since you now have the curiosity part of my brain working overtime lol,

 

Maybe because I am far from over VG10 at this time (will that change with using the Konosuke? I wouldnt mind if it did) and am still a bit impressed with the steels performance over the "moly" knives I own or have owned or possibly just due to appearance alone I still find myself attracted to the Hattori HD.

 

Even though I did go with the Konosuke already (can not wait to get my hands on it BTW) it was more about the analytical part of my brain taking over and all the countless reviews and comments so strongly praising it's feel, quality, and performance.

 

I understand your "entry level knives" comment, but being all my current knives are truly entry level that comment really gets me thinking, but also it implies there are other choices that are superior and this is where I had been having a problem trying to understand or get a feel for what difference is really all about. I mean if my current Tojiro and Fujiwara are considered entry level (very affordable, and very pleased with them especially when you consider their cost etc) and most consider the Hattori to be at a higher level, and those like yourself who have had the opportunity to experience other knives that make the Hattori seem entry level etc is just a whole lot to try to understand when I am still very impressed with just how insanely superior my current entry level knives are compared to my previous Pro S.

 

Just what is to be expected? Where does it end? how much better can it get etc, etc, etc.

 

 

 

Racine

 

I hear you on the not so bold Kanji etc, and honestly am a little unhappy that even the Konosuke HD uses a similar print or screen as my inexpensive knives :(  and really wish it was stamped or something more permanent. But this all is mostly appearance based etc and I am trying to pay less attention or give less value to that part of things. I guess if looks manage to push higher on the scale of things I could always polish the steel to a mirror etc but that is a real PITA.

 

I think you comment on learning the strengths and weakness of various brands and knowing what you want is a good one as it is part of my issue.

 

As an example I can fully understand and compare the differences between the various knives I own and have owned etc, and can also have an idea of what I would like different as well, BUT knowing what you may want from your knife and knowing which one you actually want is not exactly the same, and also where I get myself into too much thought too lol.

 

It is similar to how I do like how Tojiro DP takes and holds it's edge, and am happy with the performance as well (I mostly use the petty which due to being my thinnest knife seems to get the sharpest) but also prefer the feel of the Fujiwara FKM (comparing it to other Tojiro gyuto I have used, and even the santoku I own) and much as I want to improve on the steel and performance of the FKM I am just not sure how to put that into just which knife would do that etc. So I guess  would most likely prefer a slightly thinner, and flatter profile that will hold a sharper edge longer. Doesn't need to be a complete workhorse as I don't need to put it through 12hr shifts or anything, but it can't be no willy nilly sissy either :)

 

Now Wag had some comments on another thread about the Konosuke that though I teased him a bit did hit on some good points relating to technique and profile. I think this plays into things here also because I have found that part of the reason my results and speed have improved since moving into J knives in general is partly due to the knives themselves a similar or even larger part of it is from changes or improvements in technique.

 

I think it was around the end of last winter where I had put in a serious effort to be more aware of my cuts and methods and started employing more glide and guillotine in some sort of natural change that I found worked so well with the Fuji it was obvious. Not that I do not chop or use other styles (how to mince without a lil rock n roll etc) but smooth like push cuts have completely taken over much of the others, and it seems to work really well.

 

So to answer the question about what am I looking for or to do. Yes I am looking to improve on the Fujiwara, and yes something different, but not so much different as improvement. I would like to improve on the steel, the feel, and performance. Not that there is anything "wrong" with it, but just that with all the talk I have heard and even seen in various vids about all this and that superior this and that and seeing products costing 3, 4, 5 and even 50 times as much I am drawn to finding out just what all that difference really is.

 

It is sort of like when you see every newbie directed to the same 4 or 5 knives as the popular recommendations, but if you are the newbie just how to put a value on all these different products when you do not have the experience with the products to even understand what your comparing?

 

I remember when I first get started with this all last year, how nearly mystical it all sounded, and how overwhelming all the information was. In hind sight I am glad I was working with a small budget as it allowed to get my feet wet before jumping in. Now that I have a base to compare with and some very different low cost knives that I am still very impressed with it is just time to move up to the next step in the progression so I can experience the difference and be able to compare if the next step is as large an improvement as the previous one (really hope so, but can not think things can continue to progress like moving from Henckels to Tojiro etc).

 

I know this is getting a bit long, and hope I did not lose everyone already, but another part of this is about experimenting with carbon or semi stainless. The only non stainless I have is a old hunting knife (puma white hunter) and though an odd shape the steel is a pleasure to sharpen, and even with what seems like a totally blunt angle the thing gets silly sharp. So I really wanted to get a feel for non stainless, but really do not think I wanted a full carbon for what may become my main knife. So the Konosuke seems that it may fit what I am looking to do, and much as I do prefer the look of the Hattori (and may end up with a longer petty or slicer of some sorts from them in the future) I decided to go with the Konosuke, and only hope I made the right choice.

BDL appreciate the no nonsense response as always.

Really does help to put things in perspective etc.

The more I think about this the more confident I am with my decision as everything I had wanted performance wise is addressed by the konosuke and the the potential alternates were either imitating it like the carbonext or full on carbons (aogami or white or blue etc) and also much more expensive and out of budget. Have to remember that though a bit higher than last years most of my budget is gone on one knife where last year it was enough for several etc.

I know I will experiment with other types in the future bit really am expecting the laser aspect and better or different steel to help me bring my sharpening to a new level. That's the plan at least lol.

Will know more next week as officially it is a x mas present.

First I have to be honest that it seems I am posting some info here and also a bit in the first impression thread so sorry for any confusion etc.

I managed to get some measurements so here they are.

Thk at heel 2.3mm at 1" fr heel 2.30mm at mid of blade 2.20mm. At 1" fr tip 1.30mm at 1/4" fr tip 0.39mm
Blade height. at heel49mm at mid 42mm at1/4" fr tip 21mm
Thick half way from edge to spine. Heel1.31mm. 1" towards tip1.22mm. Mid 1.98mm 1"fr tip.80mm tip 0.38mm

The measurements are not 100% exact but taken with a dial caliper and converted to mm.

I am still a little confused or well maybe curious is a better word by the similar profile and even some of the measurements compared to the Fujiwara FKM.

 

 

A correction is in order as I was somehow mislead to believe the Kanji was printed or screened etc, and that is absolutely not he case with the HD I had received.

 

It is stamped and very well done at that.

 

The whole idea of polishing remains another subject

Does anyone have any input on the dimensions or comparisons with the wa handle version?

I did compare with the info on the CKTG site and was really looking to get more info (say like blade height further down the blade or thickness halfway between the spine and edge etc)

 

There is an obvious small difference in thickness, and I am assuming the profile is mostly the same.

 

I guess my question is since the thickness of the HD is really close to that of the FKM and where it really starts to thin out is further down the blade towards the edge etc just how different is the WA handled version that is obviously thinner at the top of the spine down the entire blade?

 

Is it even thinner than the yo version in the rest of the blade as well, or is it just that the yo gets thicker at the top.

 

Also if the wa is thinner in all areas how to compare the flex of the knife?  The yo is not nearly as "flippy" as I was expecting from various reviews and not all that much more than the Fujiwara FKM is either. Then again it is also not all that thinner than the FKM.

 

I am confident just by initial inspection and without even cutting or sharpening this blade that I will most likely be very happy with it's performance (I can not wait to get to the point of making that distinction) but I want to be sure that I am not "missing the boat" by getting the thicker yo handled one, and that I may find it too comparable to the much less expensive Fujiwara.

 

Remember a big part of this upgrade for me was to be able to compare the entry level knives I purchased last year to the the higher end performers. I think I picked the right one, and really just need to get moving on making a final decision if I am going to stick with the yo, or return it for a wa, and if so weather to go with the std or ebony handle.

 

Any help is very appreciated as I really want to get into using this thing lol.

Well thanks to all for your input etc.

 

I had decided to just go with the original choice I had made before things started selling out of stock etc. and there should be a 240 wa here next week if all goes well.

From everything I have seen I am expecting they are not, but since I have all the measurements on the YO version I will certainly measure the WA and post up my findings.

 

Also for the administrator here can you look into the problem with the site working with mobile devices running Symbian OS? It just doesnt seem to be compatible, and is weird since it works so good on android.

 

Now that would seem to make sense wouldn't it

 

But honestly I am sort of looking forward a couple of things with this knife, and comparing the dimensions to the western handled one is one of those things though far from the most important. I am really looking forward to seeing how the HD performs, and am very curious to see how I find sharpening it (I mean after hearing so many great things about this one it should be a great positive, but also I have seemed to have developed some high expectations as well.)

 

I know the quote was not exactly to me, but the idea of seeing for yourself holds a bit of weight as well.

 

Then again if no one else makes the inquiry I may just call them both (may be a little weird with Jon though as i did not buy it from him, but hey why not right).

 

 

 

 

Since you mention this I have two thoughts or maybe questions really as to just how "handmade" are they, and if there is any info on just how different one can expect them to be?

 

Even though I may have made a bit of an error in my original decision on the Corian handle (was under the gun for time, and remaining stock was an issue too) but with the conditions I thought it might have been different enough etc, but the combination of the extra weight (it was a whole lot more heavier on the handle end than even my current Fujiwara FKM) and my really wanting to try or add a wa handled knife to my "set" plus the thicker measurements I found really made my decision to swap it out pretty easy.  Even though I do not have the same issues with weight that someone who is putting in 14hr shifts may it just seemed the right decision.

 

Anyhow I was expecting the dimensions to be different at least in the blade thickness at the spine. This is based on what I have read, but also on the spec's on the product page at CKTG. I hope your not saying that I may actually be able to receive one that is not as thin as listed, and maybe even thicker than the one I returned as that would somehow be a let down lol/

 

 

 

The replacement is ln it's way but it isn't exactly what I was expecting.

Since the HD 240 WA gyuto ebony handle was out of stock Mark recommended the new flatter profile one that was in stock.

Any thoughts on this? Better, worse or just different etc?

I have to be honest I am not sure on this as my style has been evolving and is very different since finding my way to j knives than before. By that I mean much less rock and roll and been finding the glide and guillotine more and more comfortable. Sure there is still time I chop or make use of what belly there is in my Fujiwara gyuto but I understand there is still enough belly to do this just not as much.

Appreciate any thoughts on this and if I should expect to be changing anything to match or work better with this profile.

Wag I am not sure I am the right one to get into the "best profile" discussion too much and most of my posts in those have been questions etc.

Judging by the pic online it looks to still have enough curve or belly to be useful to rock and also not so flat that it should feel like a santoku or nakiri etc but hey its a pic and won't know what I think till I get it.

I hope I did not make a mistake as I really don't want to do the swap out thing again almost as much as not wanting to be stuck with an expensive knife I do not like.

One last thought on profile is that I figure just like I am very used to and happy with the Fujiwara FKM over the different Henckels and Wustofs I had used previously for years I could like the even flatter profile but since it will likely be the flatest chefs I have used i just hope its not too flat.

Guess I could just answer a simple "yes" to all of that, especially about the new twist being the profiles between the two HD's

 

I really hope not to be disappointed (do not expect to etc) and since making the decision to go with the new design have been thinking about how it could be better, and also allow comparison to the std (which the profile was close to the Fujiwara) and also will most likely be another step in my evolution in J knives.

 

Unlike you I had not had any experience with anything beyond the standard western designs before finding my way to all of this (j knives etc) and it was thankfully a change that seemed more natural and I did forget about the old designs and warmed up to the French/Japanese profile quickly. Since I now do prefer this design I can only expect that streamlining it or reducing the belly even more should work out well, but I still do hold onto a few old habits (mostly using a little pump action for mincing etc) and do not want a santoku like profile either.

 

 

 

I almost "bit" at the CN due to cost, but from what I have read comparing it with the HD I am confident I make a solid decision.

 

Lets hope I still feel that way in another few months after getting some time in with it, and on the stones etc.

 

Far as sharpening VG10 goes I never really did find the problems others report, and my VG10 blades are Tojiro DP and from everything I have read not comparable to the Hattori HD. Maybe it is because I spent so much time in the past fighting my Henckels as I was trying to take them to the max in respect to angle sharpened to etc, and was chasing burrs around like a game of hide and go seek.

 

Actually was pretty impressed with the steel, and all the reports on how far superior the Konosuke HD steel is to the VG10 has my brain doing back flips in anticipation