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Wich "lasser" to get? HD, white #2, sweedish stainless?...Help please

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 

Hi guys...

 

Here am I again with another noob question... I want to get a "Lasser" and within a month I'll be placing another order with a few goodies from CKTG, and since the S&H gets a bit complicated and expensive, I want to get the best choice.

 

I've never owned a lasser but acording to the posts that I read here... Me wants one!biggrin.gif. To be more specific, what I'm looking for, are the following characteristics...

 

1-Very very sharp.

2-Easy to sharpen.

3-The best edge retention.

 

I don't have any problem dealing with stains and "patinas", that will be the last issue to discuss, just let's focus on my 3 wishes. As you can see , my 3 main options are on "Konosukes" and I don't have a problem with the price difference among the cheapest and the most expensive because it's less than 100 bucks in the worst case, and if there is a substantial difference on the performance and qualities, I think that trying to save those few dollars will not be the smartest thing since I have to pass and pay a burocratic, long and expensive process to get them on this side of the border. I'm not looking for fancy handles or any "wow" factor... Just performance. All your imput will be very appreciated on the subject.

 

And if there are more choices that I should consider, let me know. I like a lot the Moritaka gyuto 270 but I don't know if it can be considered a lasser. I like the looks of the knife and the fact that it's made of Aogami. But I don't know if I should consider it in my wish list.

 

And last but not least... If getting a lasser, what stone should I buy to polish it. I have the Bester 1200, the Arashiyama 6000 (A.K.A. Takenoko 8000) .Wich stone should be my next progression to finish the edge?, I'll like to get the snow white but since it's an 8000, maybe I'll not feel any difference (or it will be very slightly) compared to the mentioned Arashiyama/Takenoko.

Is the Kitayama 8000 (Claimed to be up to 12,000 grit) a better choice? (Sounds like a good deal for such a competitive price)

 

Or is it a better idea to keep polishing with the Arashiyama/Takenoko and buy a Borosilicate honig rod to keep my polish instead of another stone?

 

Ok guys, I think that I made too many questions for just one post. Let me know what you think thumb.gif

 

Best regards and have a happy new year!!biggrin.gif


Edited by Luis J - 12/26/11 at 6:37pm
post #2 of 10

Semi stainless or white steel. 

 

Lasers are a somewhat different kettle of fish when it comes to edge taking and holding, because the geometry itself supplies so much perceived sharpness.  Also, there are a few stainless lasers who are pretty much as good as just about any carbon or semi-stainless out there. 

 

I think just about any white #2 laser, and the Konosuke HD semi-stainless (is there another semi laser?) are more pleasant to sharpen than any of the stainless lasers.  Within the Konosuke family, I think the White #2 and the HD perform about equally, and the stainless is a half step less good.  But I think the Tadatsuna Inox and Suisun Inox Honyaki stainless lasers are every bit as good as the Konosukes.  

 

It gets down to specific knives, and you have to look at a lot of things -- including price, amount of care, handle, aesthetics, etc. -- besides edge characteristics to make a fully informed decision. 

 

As you know, I as much fell into Konosuke HD as decided; but as far as I'm concerned I couldn't have made a better choice and there's nothing better on the market for me. 

 

For Luis J?  Quien sabe, amigo; quien sabe?  I think the questions you're really asking are whether the lower price of a shirogami Konosuke is worth the savings compared to an HD, and whether the slight loss in edge holding means the Konosuke SS doesn't belong in the mix.  

 

I've got to ask:  Are you really asking about other brands?  Are you committed to one vendor?

 

BDL 

 

 

post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 

Hi BDL...

 

Thanks for the quick and accurate reply. Seems like the Konosuke SS is out based on your comments. And regarding your questions on my comitment to any vendor or brand, I have no comitment at all, just preferences based on my not so long experience. I'll like to buy from CKTG because the seem to have what I'm looking for, and along with the new knife I'll be ordering a couple of Tojiros, another Idahone rod and an stone holder, and seems like it's the company that has it all, but I'm open to see different choices.

 

On the budget for the knife, I was expecting on something around the 250, but I'll extend that to 300 with no problem if the difference is good enough to justify the extra bucks, as I wrote on the first post, I'll pay a lot for the S&H (Around 120-150 bucks) and passing and paying a process like that to get a box with stuff that it's not exactly what I'm looking for it's a bit of nonsense. So, let's rise the bar up to 300 for a lasser and up to 100 for a new stone.

 

If I look "commited" to the Konosukes, is because all I know is what you and some fellow members of this forum are writting on those knives, seems like there is a lot of good info on those, and not so much about others. I already took a look to the suisin, but is out of the budget that I have for the knife, and I can't find the Tadatsuna Inox, CKTG doesn't have it on the website (they mention the brand butI couldn't find the knife) and I couldn't find it either on Japanes knives imports. And on the subject of getting another brand, for sure I'll be willing to get another brand that it's not Konosuke if the bang for the buck is good.

 

Thanks a lot for your reply thumb.gif

 

 

 

post #4 of 10

 

Wait a minute ... this is out of bounds, completely off the reservation. I'll be happier than happy to take the products for you, and then ship them to you for a whole lot less. CKtG offers "Free Shipping" on all orders >$60.  A while ago, when I was getting rid of a ton of magazines, I was able to ship them out 2-years worth at a crack, for +/-$11 usd. I'll be happy to talk about this. 

Quote:
... as I wrote on the first post, I'll pay a lot for the S&H (Around 120-150 bucks) ...

 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Reply
post #5 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceMan View Post

 

Wait a minute ... this is out of bounds, completely off the reservation. I'll be happier than happy to take the products for you, and then ship them to you for a whole lot less. CKtG offers "Free Shipping" on all orders >$60.  A while ago, when I was getting rid of a ton of magazines, I was able to ship them out 2-years worth at a crack, for +/-$11 usd. I'll be happy to talk about this. 

 

I am pretty sure the problem with shipping costs is not CKTG but rather to do with importing into Mexico. Remember NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) was only designed to bring money out of the US and products in, and apparently not the other way around surprised.gif

 

Still I fully agree the cost Luis is talking about for such a light weight and small package is completely criminal.

 

 

Some other thoughts.

 

I know there is an intent to pack as much into the shipment as possible due to the cost etc, but in respect to the next finer stone to add to the collection I can offer what I have found or been thinking since I use the Arashiyama 6K stone as my finishing stone as well, and am in pretty much the same situation.

 

One thing I have found with this stone is that I can get a very higher polish result by working through the swarf left over from the initial polishing with a really light touch. Under 30x magnification you can really see a difference, and even though I have never used a higher grit stone to compare the results etc I have been questioning if there would be much difference with an 8K, and if it would really make sense to just move up to a 10K or higher if you are really after that high of a polish.

 

The next question I am still not fully able to answer but keep trying lol is if I even need or will benefit from the additional polish of an 8K or 10K stone? I know we use our knives differently and you will most likely put yours to much more use on a daily basis etc, but except for the experimental and learning aspect of the experience would there really be a serious benefit to the additional polish? I would expect either the white steel or HD Konosuke to be able to hold the polish a bit longer than a lot of other blades, but is the result really what were after and will it be worth the effort.

 

Sorry I am only posing the questions (same ones I have been asking myself etc) and do not have the answers, but wanted to share the thoughts so it may help you find your way to your decision. Plus I am sure BDL and others will have opinion on this as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #6 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceMan View Post

 

Wait a minute ... this is out of bounds, completely off the reservation. I'll be happier than happy to take the products for you, and then ship them to you for a whole lot less. CKtG offers "Free Shipping" on all orders >$60.  A while ago, when I was getting rid of a ton of magazines, I was able to ship them out 2-years worth at a crack, for +/-$11 usd. I'll be happy to talk about this. 

 


Hi Ice Man... Thanks for the reply, I'm in a bit of a hurry these days, but as soon as I can, I'll PM you with my specific issues on the S&H to my country, I really appreciate your help, and if it works in a convenient way I'll be more than happy of having the chance of buying new stuff on a more regular basis.

We'll be in touch thumb.gif

 

post #7 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

I am pretty sure the problem with shipping costs is not CKTG but rather to do with importing into Mexico. Remember NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) was only designed to bring money out of the US and products in, and apparently not the other way around surprised.gif

 

Still I fully agree the cost Luis is talking about for such a light weight and small package is completely criminal.

 

 

Some other thoughts.

 

I know there is an intent to pack as much into the shipment as possible due to the cost etc, but in respect to the next finer stone to add to the collection I can offer what I have found or been thinking since I use the Arashiyama 6K stone as my finishing stone as well, and am in pretty much the same situation.

 

One thing I have found with this stone is that I can get a very higher polish result by working through the swarf left over from the initial polishing with a really light touch. Under 30x magnification you can really see a difference, and even though I have never used a higher grit stone to compare the results etc I have been questioning if there would be much difference with an 8K, and if it would really make sense to just move up to a 10K or higher if you are really after that high of a polish.

 

The next question I am still not fully able to answer but keep trying lol is if I even need or will benefit from the additional polish of an 8K or 10K stone? I know we use our knives differently and you will most likely put yours to much more use on a daily basis etc, but except for the experimental and learning aspect of the experience would there really be a serious benefit to the additional polish? I would expect either the white steel or HD Konosuke to be able to hold the polish a bit longer than a lot of other blades, but is the result really what were after and will it be worth the effort.

 

Sorry I am only posing the questions (same ones I have been asking myself etc) and do not have the answers, but wanted to share the thoughts so it may help you find your way to your decision. Plus I am sure BDL and others will have opinion on this as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Hi Lenny...

 

I'm a bit short on time to reply properly but one issue that you're mentioning is also something that makes me very curious and that's "What's the highest polish that you can have in a Kitchen knife that remains "practical"? I know that you can get a 30,000 polish, but is it going to work ok? Is the knife going to keep it? Is it going to transmit you the feeling of the knife cutting?

So far I'm very happy with my Arashimaya/Takenoko, but since I'm trying to get a sharper knife I wonder if I need a higher polish to get the best of that new kind of knife.

 

Just curious confused.gif

 

Best regards! biggrin.gif

 

post #8 of 10

After about 5K, you're certainly talking more about slippery and shiny than you are about sharp.  I can tell you about some of the differences between a Pure White edge and a Kitayama, and about the differences between those edges and the Takenoko finish, but cannot tell you whether they're worth the extra trouble or not or which you'll like more.

 

The short answer is that either the Pure White or Kitayama will give you a different, more refined, and smoother edge than the Takenoko.  They're two of my favorite 8Ks and it's hard for me to recommend one over the other.  Probably my favorite edge is the Pure White followed by the Kitayama -- the Kitayma changes the Pure White's finish from mirror bright to misty and from very slick to just a tiny bit of bite. 

 

Is the combination worth the trouble on an everyday gyuto?  Maybe not.  Is it worth going all the way to either 8K?  I'd give that a qualified yes. 

 

The Kitayama is a finicky stone which leaves something close to a "natural" finish, and works best following an already fairly refined polish and fairly marginal following an ordinary medium or medium-fine.  The Takenoko is a good -- but not great -- predecessor.  The Naniwa Pure White (aka Snow White) is an excellent performer which is a lot easier to use than an SS.

 

There's a sort of related question.  Is 8K much different from 10K?  The answer here is no.  Think of a Chosera 10K (for instance) as just another pure polishing stone which will work to finish the edge from a medium fine (3K - 6k) stone.  So, you can't really say that an 8K is on one side of the "max" and a 10K is on the other -- at least not if you're looking for your final stone to polish out the scratch left by a medium-fine.  The difference lies more in the particular stone than the nominal grit size.

 

The Chosera 10K is a very fast finisher with lots of abrasive jammed into a magnesia substrate.  It's really as good as anything else out there, but too expensive.  There's a similar "generic" magnesia 10K which is far less expensive and supposedly as good. 

 

Also, JKI's Gesshin 8K is supposedly extremely good, and is a lot more favorably priced than the Chosera 10K.  My SS 8K is on its lest legs and I'm going to get one of Jon's stones the next time on the west side. 

 

As a practical matter, you want to be very careful with burr creation.  If you're not careful deburring, you can completely screw up the polish.  When I polish, I try not to create a burr at all; and when I do my finally deburring it's into soft materials like felt or cork. 

 

Sometimes it's easiest and best to work super high grits on a loaded strop.  I have lots of sharpening junk and can use either high grit stones or loaded strops, and don't see one as being better than the other; it's more a matter of what you like and what works best for you. 

 

Another favorite edge of mine is a strop (I favor balsa) loaded with 0.5u or 0.25u diamond.  The edge is both highly polished and slightly toothy, and will go happily from thin slicing tomatoes to making glass smooth edges on raw fish -- just like a Kitayama.  

 

At some point, going to finer and finer grits won't do much to the edge -- and not just as a "practical matter."  I know guys -- most notably Ken Schwartz who argue that grits finer than the steel grain structure make a positive difference, but in my opinion that's (a) nuts; and (b) makes no sense at all. 

 

BDL

post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 

Hi BDL...

 

Cool, you gave me the info that I was looking for. I think that I'll go for the "pure white". When I cut with my mac or the Tojiro just polished with the Takenoko, I think that anything else will be too much, or as we say here "Pura vanidad" (Just vanity) but I'll like to give it a try personally to get the feeling of such a polished edge. Maybe in the future I'll not use it, or maybe I'll get addicted to such fine edges, who knows?... The only way to make sure is to try and as you told me not so long ago "fool around with this stuff".

 

And before I asked, you answered something that i was curious about, and that was on "getting a burr" with the polishing stones. I got my own conclusions but I wasn't sure if I was right, but you just confirmed it. I was getting the knife sharp with the 1200 stone, and after that I was more like "caressing" the edge with the Takenoko until I got it shiny and to loose the grity feeling when cuting paper or shaving my arm.

 

Thanks a lot for the info.biggrin.gif

post #10 of 10
Just want to be sure I am understanding the points on higher polishing correctly as I expect to start the process for adding to my set soon. I currently end with a arashiyama 6k and sometimes strop either on same stone or small piece of soft wood (believe it is balsa but can not confirm) and I finish off with a really light touch on the blade etc.

Like Luis I have been more than a little curious of the results and benefits of finishing on a finer grit stone, or even a loaded strop though I had promised myself not to complicate and add extra expense to things by getting fully onto stropping.

Now I am happy with my current results when I have the time to actually take my time etc, and find rushing with the final steps most often just messes with the results from the coarser grits (I think we all pay attention at grit levels that will remove more steel or create bigger oop's ) and when I have checked the edges with a 30x loupe the results are a even fine grain that appears smooth with some random light but deeper scratches.

Since this edge glides through most anything I have tried effortlessly but still allows enough bite to be useful I have been overly curious as to just what to expect from adding either a 8k or 10k stone or going to a strop loaded with a fine abrasive would add to the equation?

You guys have probably figured out by now I am a little value driven, but can be moved to towards quality if there is a good combo of performance andbang for the buck (like the addition of the konosuke etc).

So any help in understanding just how to compare the results of the 8k kittiyama 10k snow white and a loaded strop would be very helpful.

I have been honestly leaning towards the 8k due to cost (I have found a way to get them for even less than the low prices we see online ) the results I have read about on the forums and how like my current 6k it can be worked light handed to produce a finish above its rating etc but also like what I have read about the 10k minus the price.

From BDL's post above it does seem there is a point where the polish level can be above the need for a particular knife or use but I am really having a problem applying this without actually doing or feeling it.

Plus I have found that a good amount of what I read on the net is more enthusiast based and prone to fanaticism than being practical so it just complicates the confusion and since I do not expect to share skills with those like jon or kcma etc anytime soon it is difficult to properly apply the very great info some of the most skilled posters offer as well.

Hope I explained all that correctly smile.gif

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
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