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Why do some of you knock going to culinary school? - Page 2

post #31 of 72
Thread Starter 

WOW! Did not know that this thread would get so many responses. Thanks to all who took the time to post, I really appreciate it. I have thought about J&W and yes I know they are mucho expensivo but they are a good school. Now after reading every last one of your posts.....several times I might add, and also doing my own research and coming to my common sense, I have decided to go to a junior college. At 100 bucks per cred and 64 creds for an AS in Culinary Arts Management, I think it's a good deal. Like I mentioned in my OP. I already have a pell grant that should cover everything.....yes everything....even books, knives, whites....whatever.Oh and they are ACF accredited, if it means anything. Once again muchisimas gracias.....ahh I mean thanks.

post #32 of 72

Good choice. Bechamel is bechamel they all teach the same.and ratios and procedures for prep are the same. Good Luck to you! ejb

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #33 of 72

This post brings about another question in my mind, on that someone may have dabbled on earlier but I dont remember who and dont care enough to go back and quote them.  Anyways, whether to go or not to go to a cullinary school was the question, BUT does it make you a chef?  If not, what does? 

 

I've never been to culinary school, but I've helped design a menu, and been a lead cook for over 5 years (all one restaurant I've worked at for 9 years and I'm 23 years old) and don't yet consider my self a chef.  What must be done to make the leap?  If I have to goto a $60,000 culinary school just for the title of "chef" I say go f**k your self.  I'll stick to do what I love, getting paid for it, and still be called a cook.  Fine by me :)

post #34 of 72

For me, "Chef" is simply the title of the one in charge of the kitchen, laser.gifhopefully they can cook as well as manage talker.gif

 

Besides cooking skills, one needs to know:

  • Personnel management
  • Business management
  • Business accounting
  • Business finance
  • Marketing
  • Business law

 

to be an effective "Chef".

 

For me, formal culinary training is the least of the credentials needed, TBS, HR may have a different viewpoint

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post #35 of 72

You earn it by gathering experience from many different places over the years. Pete has the traits listed but I will add one and its organization. You must keep track of what is going on at all times. 

I work part time with a Great Young American Chef >He has worked in some  really upscale multi award winning restaurants He has all kinds of awards, but lacks experience in multi outlet Volume non restaurant  operations. He will absorb that over time, same way we all did, by jumping in and just doing it.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #36 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmexico25 View Post

 If I have to goto a $60,000 culinary school just for the title of "chef"

Anyone promising you "no fees" is full of crap, anyone promising you "This gasoline powered car will never need an oil change" is full of crap, and any culinary school promising you that upon graduation of a course will make you a "Chef" is full of crap.

 

There is no standard for cooks, there is no standard for "Chefs", the culinary schools do whatever they want to do with no guidlines to follow.  They (Culinary schools)  will continue do this, and sucker in people until standards are put in place.  Europe has such standards, and has had them for hundreds of years, Canada is starting to impliment them.

 

I doubt if that will ever happen in the U.S..

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #37 of 72

Thanks for the clarification, all of you.  You all seemed much more experienced then myself, but I'm well on my way.  If what you told me holds true, then I'll never be a "chef", but I certainly will be a damn good cook!  And wont be ashamed to say so. 

 

 

post #38 of 72

LOL. NO, MrMexico25, you CAN be a chef anytime you like. "Chef" and "Cook" are both V O C A B U L A R Y Words. There are no real rules or standards for using vocabulary words. However, be aware if you talk the talk, you better be good and able to walk the walk. What I am saying is that if you do your job to the highest quality and standards involved with the job, the title is not so much important. Everyone defines what their standards are very differently. I have my credentials, they can't be taken away. The way I determine if I'm a chef or a cook is based on the job I'm doing at the time. That is how I define the words. Live by how YOU define things, NOT how SOMEONE ELSE tells you how they define those things. 

 

Be All That You Can Be ... 

 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #39 of 72

I have worked with culinary school graduates several times and some were good and some did not know a damn thing! I think the first half of the school is waste for someone like yourself who cooks everyday and does not need to be taught how to hold a knife and cut onions. Maybe they should have a culinary finishing school!!

post #40 of 72
Being a grad of a well know school will help open doors, at least it did for me. That said I went to a school that required entrants to have at least a year of work in a commercial kitchen.
Fast food shouldn't count.

I hope the bigger schools continue that requirement.

When I used to teach at a small culinary school the the admissions "sales team" would sometimes fill a class with folks happened to see our commercial while watching Jerry Springer. Many worked in fast food, occasionally a few had solid skills from OJT at a decent place. Many had zero experience and were career changers (I liked them the most) who were motivated and paying their own way, not wasting dads money or on some loan program.

I keep in touch with a few of my students from years back and all have done well, a few now head chefs at high end places, one owns a place. However, another one of my faves - a motivated student sadly later became victim of reality and went back to his higher paying job delivering home heating oil.

Go in knowing you get out what you put in. If you get stuck in a class of jackasses make them switch you.

Be the sponge you mention for 3-5 years after school and consider it part of your education. Then go for money....

My stepdad always loved to cook. He got laid off from a job as an engineer after 15-20 years. At age 50+ he took a free culinary course offered by his town and interned at a "real" Hilton, finished the program and stayed on for a while. Next thing you know he's moving to Key West and landed sous at Pepes.
Later became chef... I went down and it was a really nice white tablecloth place that had been there for like 100 years!

You can be him..,

HTH - good luck.

*reason for edit = skipped English class too often*
Edited by GUMBO - 1/10/12 at 4:42am
post #41 of 72

 Uh-huh.....

My sister has never been to culinary school,but has cooked for years.  Grips the knife all white-knuckled like it was a 2x4, every time I come over I sharpen her knives,and she is consistantly amazed on how well a sharp knife can cut, has no idea how to pit and slice a peach, how to skin a tomato--or why, or how to dice an onion.  I never watch TV at all, she can tell me about every cooking show she has seen.   She also has no idea that "poach" means below the boiling point, and that "sauteing" has to have some kind of oil involved or it isn't sauteing.

 

9 times out of 10 what you learn on the job isn't the right way of doing things anyway.  You need some kind of school,,and you need to cover all the basics in school just to make sure that they are done right.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #42 of 72

I think we've resolved one solid thing in this post: culinary school doesn't teach nor have much concern for the English language or language skills in general.

post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post

 Uh-huh... You need some kind of school,,and you need to cover all the basics in school just to make sure that they are done right.

If you change "school" to "training", I think I agree with you. The "training" may be formal, i.e. school, informal, i.e. apprenticeship, or OJT/self learned, but I agree, there should be some standards involved.

 

A formal training may have some advantages, i.e. a standardized curriculum, standardized performance measurements, and industry recognition. However, that is based on an assumption that there is a common body of knowledge applicable to all culinary occupations, similar to standards for electricians, plumbers, and other trades. Unfortunately, skills important for a short order cook  may be very different than those necessary for a corporate casual dining cook, or even an upscale cook, and then there are the different set of skills for the catering and institutional food service areas not to mention food processing.

 

With regards to training and/or licensing having any measurable impact on wages paid, I have a difficult time rectifying how a demand driven industry can accommodate pay scales established by vocational training standards unless there is some impetus to coerce customers to utilize those services.

 

Electricians, plumbers, carpenters, HVAC technicians, and a host of other trades have governmental standards that must be met and customers have no choice but to pay the going rate to meet those standards. As far as I know, there is no governmental requirement that anyone must eat in a restaurant and that a great majority of people can survive quite adequately cooking or preparing their own meals at home. Of course, you can do your own wiring, plumbing, construction, or HVAC work as long as you conform to the corresponding building code, which I do not believe exists  for food preparation activities, beyond food safety standards.

 

Perhaps, when the government decides to mandate eating at a restaurant a certain number of meals per week the situation will change.

 

It comes down to, at least for the present time, that cafes/coffee shops/short order houses/restaurants/hotels/caterers will pay employees from to pool of money provided by the customers and a great majority of time that will be after the rent/mortgage/loan payment(s), utility payments, taxes, licenses, food purchases, and mandated government payments have been made, as long as there is some money left wink.gif
 

 

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post #44 of 72

Culinary Student!!! No one here ever said they were great at spelling or english, but perhaps you would want to have a cooking contest with one of them??? Plus there are a few writers and reviewers  on here that could teach you a thing or to about english language .

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #45 of 72

And if you pay attention, SteelyBob, you'll notice that those of us who make our livings with words do not take cheap shots at how others use the language.

They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
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post #46 of 72

Yes, Ky, training might be a better word, probably is.

 

My take on ojt and learning by yourself is this:

 

A restaurant's primary goal is to make money, to pay the bills. If you don't have, say omelette pans, you teach your staff to make omelettes on the flat top.  If you don't have the time or manpower to cut your own vegetables for soup, you bring them in pre-diced, or get someone one to fudge around with the meat slicer and then cross-chop them.  If you don't have the time or manpower to make even simple desserts you get them brought in.

 

A school, well yes, their primary goal is to make money too. But where a restaurant's reputation rests on it's food and service, the school's reputation rests on it's students.  Therefor it is in the school's best interest to ensure it's students know the basics.

 

If a cook's goal is to become a Chef, then schooling is a must.  There are countless positions in between prep cook and Chef of a 90 seat restaurant, and many of these positions don't require the formal training a Chef needs.  As with many of the trades you listed, there are increasing degrees of qualifications, ie. Gas fitter I, II,III.  Many stop at I or II and are comfortable, and I see no reason why cooks or bakers can't do this as well.  I don't promote a "Red seal Chef" qualification for everyone who works in a kitchen-- flipping burgers or pan searing ahi tuna (Although red seal is a must for many of "Wendy's" franchises here in CDN) 

 

Everyone here can tell you the hospitality industry is one of the lowest paying indsutrues around.  Why?

 

Mainly, becasue of competition.  Competition drives the prices down, the public loooooves buying cheap.  Nobody wants to pay for a scratch-made chicken cordon bleu or a slice of chocolate cake for a Thursday lunch with work collegues.. Competition demands an "addiction" to convienciece foods, conviencience foods in turn demand an addiction to buyers who can't figure out it is cheaper and more benificial to make from scratch, and the general public are addicted on advertising and cheap prices..  It's a really nasty cycle, and for the most part, cooks just stand in the middle and open packages.

 

In order to survive and flourish in this nasty cycle, there are two options, two extremes. The first is the  MC'd's way:  Total reliance on convienience products, total reliance on opening boxes and answering buzzers on fryers and flat-tops.  

 

The other extreme is everything made in house.  This method requires skilled manpower and creative purchasing methods.  However, since something unique is offered, no price war can take place. Apples vs oranges.

 

If we rely only on one method, we are finished. 

 

But anyway you look at things, we need properly trained manpower, and for this, we need properly trained trainers to train the traineees.

 

Suggestions?

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post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodpump View Post
...But anyway you look at things, we need properly trained manpower, and for this, we need properly trained trainers to train the traineees.

 

Suggestions?

Before we can identify "properly trained trainers", someone has to define "properly trained" crazy.gif and therein lies the conundrum. Someone needs to identify the "common body of knowledge" for each specified skill level as well as defining the skill levels themselves. Unfortunately, there is little in common among fast-food, bistro/cafe, independent casual, corporate casual, fine dining, hotel, catering, and institutional establishments beyond rudimentary, fundamental skills and knowledge that can be taught in a relatively short period of time.

 

In the USA, the ACF has defined the upper levels fairly well, however, as far as I can determine, no one has defined a generally accepted skill set and responsibilities (aside from some governmental entities such as military) for:

  • Dish Washer
  • Kitchen Helper
  • Raw food preparer
  • Cook (however defined, I, II, II, ???)

 

There are job descriptions that attempt to do so, but there is little coordination or similarity from one organization to another and none backed by any enforcement authority.

 

What is the solution? There is not one but a multitude of alternative approaches with two major categories, private sector (police yourselves, probably something like ACF) and public sector (government/union rule making restricting access to those meeting standards by fiat). Which do you prefer?

 

BTW, meeting either private or public sector standards does not insure competence, only that the standards have been met. wink.gif

 

 

 

Chef,
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post #48 of 72

Cogitation can be a dangerous endeavor!

 

I left out some occupational categories that may address the differences in food production operations (restated)

 

  • Dish Washer
  • Kitchen Helper
  • Raw food preparer (vegetable washing, trimming, peeling, etc.), aka "Prep cook", prepares food products (mise en place) for others.
  • Processed food product handler, opens pre-processed food products
  • Food assembler (mainly fast-food and corporate casual)
  • Food re-thermalizers (heat previously cooked foods for service)
  • Food equipment operator ( I, II, III, ???), i.e. deep fry operator, oven handler, stand mixer operator, tomato slicer operator, fry cutter, etc.
  • Cook (however defined, I, II, II, ???), one who transforms raw food by application of heat following specific recipe guidelines.
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post #49 of 72

And again.

 

As part of the "common body of knowledge", vocabulary becomes paramount during  training, not just classic terminology but contemporary as well.

 

An example, the following mean very specific things to me

  • Poach
  • Simmer
  • Boil
  • Braise

and they are distinct and separate.

 

In a concomitant discussion, the terms ballotine, galantine, roulade, and, IIRC, roti came up with some emphasizing the similarities and others positing the differences. If there is to be a "common body of knowledge", it starts with a common vocabulary that minimizes ambiguities and reduces to potential for misunderstandings.

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post #50 of 72

WOW. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #51 of 72

just trying to bring some levity and awareness to the conversation, not trying for cheap shots =p (my English skills suck too, despite living there for 5ish years).

 

however, i do see a fascinating conversation here about job experience vs. general/holistic business awareness and how schooling plays into that mix that i find intensely important, because i think that if there's any hubris in the culinary field (yes, there's tons... almost as much in my post here), it is too often an attitude that the purity of the art somehow negates any business sense. go watch 50+ hours of "kitchen nightmares" for some reference on that point of disaster (and the subsequent pain of which these forums too often record).

 

i think the most successful artisans in this business understand that this is a business and put that first. and the artistry at the end of the day comes from mastering that business sense of how to put the value of their artistry out there as their primary unabashed product in a way that no potential customer can fail to understand.

 

 

 

post #52 of 72

This is a really good thread that I am sharing with several high school students. While some arguments are more eloquent than others, I think the point of contention is the same. Entering this field can start by opening one of many doors. There is no 'one size fits all' answer and, quite honestly, there shouldn't be. What works best for one individual may not work for another. Hence, we all have choices to make. We do the best we can to make the right decision based on research, asking questions and, yes, gut instinct. I think you will agree that it is nice to have more than once path to follow.

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post #53 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceMan View Post

Sorry my friend, but this is stuff any adult can learn in one(1) shift. 

Whether you're aware or not, bar-tenders do all kinds of "prep", much like veg prep before their shifts. How much different is bar fruit than veggies? It shouldn't take more than one(1) shift to learn. Cleaning out the fryers is something you watch once, and you're an expert. Helping out at the dishpit is something your mother should have taught you. I always have the instructions pasted up in plain sight if you didn't; in English and Spanish. Plating up banquet plates is something for trained monkeys. You watch what the others do, you ask a few questions, you listen to what you're told, you get the job done. Inventory is inventory; steaks, potatoes, beer, wine, whiskey. You either do it in the bar or the walk-in. If it's cold, put on a jacket.  

 

This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens. The stuff I got from the CIA is stuff very few people I've worked with know. I give that to the people I'm working for or with. That's what makes me the chef I am. 


Yeah any adult can learn it in one shift but can you do it 6-7 days a week 12-16 hours a day for several years before your a chef

 

post #54 of 72

LOL.      You just really crack me up. 

 

"CHEF" is still only a vocabulary word. I do the job, I do it very well, I get paid. Call me a "plumber" if you wish, just make sure you pay me on time.. All that is important is people eating what is served, and coming back again for more. 

 

I don't know anything at all about your staff. I do know that if I teach my staff something on Monday, they don't forget it on Tuesday. I hire people much smarter than that. Everything in my post that you quoted is still general kitchen work. 

 

This aint'e no rocket surgery. We work in kitchens.

Get back to me when you figure out this very simple concept. 

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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post #55 of 72

Let's keep this discussion in the realm of education and in the spirit of the initial inquiry. And STOP the one on one attacks. NOW!

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post #56 of 72

This has been quite an enlightening thread to read.  Not that I didn't have an opinion before, and not that it has changed...but it is enlightening to see how the culinary field feels about this in general.

 

Personally, I am ambivalent towards culinary school.  My chef that taught me went to LCB, enjoyed every minute of it, and is doing quite well for himself now.  It did open a few doors for him via connections he made there, but the fact that he went to LCB really hasn't affected anything else for him one way or the other.  If anything, it set his employer's expectations of him rather high, but because of his natural talent and just the type of person he is, he easily met those expectations.  

 

I however did not go to culinary school.  I apprenticed under my chef for three years.  I loved every minute of it, and wouldn't trade that type of experience and education for the world.  Maybe I liked it better because I was homeschooled and seem to enjoy a less formal style of education, or maybe it was because I thought it was awesome that I wasn't paying big bucks to get an amazing education.  Either way, I learned the same things he learned at LCB and paid a lot of money to learn, and I didn't pay a cent.  Am I as good a chef as he is...not yet, but that is due to a difference in experience, and not in talent or training.

 

As another example, my uncle went to culinary school (CIA if I'm not mistaken...although I'll have to ask him to confirm that).  He did well in school, and enjoyed it.  He had retired from the US Army, and used his GI Bill money to learn a new trade after leaving the military.  He has done quite well since then, and provides sufficiently well for his family.  On the other hand, my younger brother took the school of hard knocks route (like I did) and took an apprenticeship.  He started working in a professional kitchen at 16, and was noticed by the executive chef fairly quickly.  He worked under her instruction for a number of  years before moving on, and has been able to work at a number of fine dining restaurants as he worked his way up the kitchen "food chain".  He has done well enough that his chef asked him to come back and be her sous chef.  She herself went through the school of hard knocks and has been a chef for over 25 years now.  She has just accepted a job at a very high-end fine-dining restaurant in the area (which I will not name until she decides to make it common knowledge) so I guess an apprenticeship worked for her too.  

 

Like I said, I am ambivalent towards culinary school.  I know very successful chefs who have gone both routes.  There are many successful chefs on this forum that have gone both routes.  In the end, what matters is that is is something you want (whether it be formal or informal schooling) and that it is a wise decision based on your current situation.  It is a decision you must make, and one that hopefully you will stick with and see through to the end.  I'm not that saying asking for advice on the topic is a bad idea...it is a great idea, in my opinion.  But ultimately the decision should be based on what your desires and goals are, and what you feel is the wisest decision at the time you are making it.

post #57 of 72

I've been thinking, cooking is not to everybodies liking but look at it this way every one gotto eat So maybe people are just jealous of some people natural talents, I cant sing to save my life but I'm a whiz in the kitchen but I get that from my dad as soon as I could walk I was at the counter made some sort of concoction but my brothers cant even boil an egg. But I also know what your aiming at my parents worked their fingers to the bone for me and my bros & Siss to have a education in something other than chefing but I'm a black sheep of the family and nose dived in to the life of a professional chef. I'm just hoping they forgive me for it... one  day soon.

post #58 of 72

so who won here? i missed it, sorry...

post #59 of 72

No winners, no losers. To each his own or diffrent strokes for different folks.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...

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post #60 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer View Post

What I don't understand is all you folks who insist on thinking culinary school is different than any other trade or career path.

 

School is expensive, no matter what your choosen field. And starting pays are comparatively low in most fields as well. But I don't hear anyone saying don't go to school if you want to be a reporter, or a school teacher, or a businessman. And the idea that culinary arts people are the only ones who graduate with unrealistic expectations is just silly. When I graduated from journalism school, for instance, many of my classmates suffered from the idea that just because they had a J degree the New York Times was anxious to hire them. That's comparable to graduating culinary school and expecting to be named sous chef at a Michelin starred restaurant.

 

And let's get real about the relationship between entry-level pay and tuition costs. When my son graduated with an MBA, despite scholarships that helped tremendously, he was $160,000 in debt. His first job's salary was 35 grand.


This is something I've been trying to get through to my mother. I wanted to go to culinary school out of high school, but she vetoed and said I had to go to a four-year university. So fine, I did and received my B.A. in Psychology. I graduated in 2007. Hey, guess what happened the year before? Yes, the worldwide economic collapse. So now nearly five years and goodness knows how many job applications later, I received ONE interview and was turned down because I was OVER-qualified. I can't even get an entry-level position with a bachelor's. Mother keeps harping on the low starting wages in the culinary career track in relation to the tuition costs of NECI, but she doesn't consider the fact that I would be spending a comparable amount of money on graduate school (IF I even got in. Keep in mind that I graduated college with a 2.816 GPA and I have nothing on my résumé that will make up for that) to get a master's in something I'm lukewarm about at best and only get entry-level positions that pay $30K/year IF I even got a job. The other choice is what I'm currently doing: working 6-day OT weeks at a retail job I hate and barely make over $20K/year and unable to afford to move out (live in a way too expensive area where rent for a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood is more than my monthly paycheck).

 

To further illustrate: my sister went to law school, is $250K in debt, and the only job offerings she's qualified for pay at most $14/hr. And this is a person who has a federal government job as well as other impressive features on her résumé. She has yet to even score an interview.

 

If I'm going to spend money on school and make $30K/year in a job with long workweeks, odd hours, weekends and holidays, it might as well be in a field that I truly enjoy. And honestly, my mother is the kind of person who will never be happy and accept what her daughters do in life. Her (rather passive-aggressive) objections do not come from a place of concern for my future career prospects. 

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