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Which stones or "system" for beginner to sharpen Hattori HD and Kagayaki VG-10?

post #1 of 41
1/19/12 at 6:10pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks to those who chimed in on my Katana handle thread.

As noted in there, I've ordered the Hattori HD 240mm Gyuto and Kagayaki VG-10 150mm Petty. In terms of keeping them sharp, to put it bluntly (hardy har!),  I don't want to screw them up. I'm an absolute and complete neophyte in this field - I've never sharpened anything. Cooking is basically the extent of "working with my hands" for me. I'm no hobbyist, "toolie", or even all that handy. I'm a self-employed lawyer who loves to cook who wants good quality sharp knives and who doesn't want to screw up a relatively expensive new purchase.

So, that being said, I'd like to try very hard to take care of these lovely new blades. I do have some older knives that I can work on first to learn the basic skills.

My sources for stones/systems in Vancouver will probably be e-tailer order or locally at "House of Knives" where they would recommend the Shun 1000/6000 combo stone for $125 CAD...or $80 on Amazon. Elsewhere brick and mortar wise? No idea...Paul's Finest has a collection of Naniwa SS and Chosera stones, as well as Wusthof and the Edge Pro system.

Cost-wise, it appears that the Edge Pro Apex #3 and #4 come in at between $230 - $260 CAD (jives pretty close to CKTG pricing). The stone grits are up to 1000, which Paul says is about equivalent to 3000 in the Japanese stones and then the #4 comes with additional higher grit "polish tapes" that attach to an aluminum plate, so I assume they're limited in the number of times they can be used.

Paul also sells the Naniwa SS in a 3 pack on sale for $175 (400, 1000, 5000 with a free guide) or the Chosera in the same grits for $256 (and they also come with the guide and Nagura 600grit mud/slurry/cleaning stones...whatever those are).

Aside from having more "control" and being more of a "purist" - is there any advantage to spending almost the same amount of money on the Naniwa stones?

Am I less likely to ruin the Damascus look of my HD if I use the Apex? (I've read a number of comments from freehanders about scratching the Damascus, which is something that I'm a bit scared of...from an aesthetic standpoint - it's like scratching your new BMW and saying "eh, it still drives the same"). If I do use the Apex, will I be able to achieve a similar level of success with getting truly sharp blades?

Alternatively, is it more reasonable to open it up to ordering a different (i.e. more value oriented i.e. cheaper) set of stones from CKTG or another e-tailer and going the freehand route that way? If so, based on these knives, what would you recommend?

Note that I also intend on getting an Idahone ceramic rod (not sure which one, but I assume it should be the "fine" one) for regular maintenance.

Finally, for perspective, I really don't mind learning how to freehand sharpen but I also don't feel like it's a driving force or something that I "need" to do as I really only have so much free time (and that's not much, if that helps put it into perspective). But I am completely willing.

Okay, I think I gave all of the relevant information. Given the above, I'd really appreciate any thoughts anyone might have. Thanks!


Edited by Deputy - 1/19/12 at 10:34pm
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post #2 of 41
1/21/12 at 12:58am
Thread Starter 

Okay, I've just ordered an additional Tojiro DP Damascus Santoku (165mm), Forschner 10" bread + 4 paring knives, and the Idahone rod.

 

Given the above purchase (basically having spent nearly $500 on knives in two days), I'm leaning further towards freehanding with stones to save more than a few bucks. I'd still do the Apex if that was going to be better for me, but it is a pretty pricey route. That being said, I don't want to eff up my lovely new knives and, if that's likely, I'd rather spend the extra cash on the Apex.

 

I guess it just depends on what you guys recommend for stones for my situation and the knives mentioned.

 

Thanks in advance!

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post #3 of 41
1/21/12 at 6:59am

If you aren't already a good freehand sharpener, an EP Apex will be much quicker and somewhat less stressful to learn.  In your case, for your knives, it's at least as good for your knives.  No need to worry about scratching either.  Less risk with an EP than with freehand.  I can't tell you what to choose, but from what you've written about yourself I think you'd be happier with an EP than going for months and months obsessing over learning about stones, and whether or not you made the right purchase.

 

The Idahone, a 12" fine (aka "1200") was a great choice.  None better.

 

If you're really worried about scratching the patterns on the faces of your knives, return the knives and get something you don't care as much about.  Knives are tools, and you should be comfortable about using them that way; and the soft stainless used to make san-mai patterns scratches.  Even if you don't scratch them in use or sharpening, someone will eventually scour them.  Or something.  It's always something.

 

If you do decide to go with stones, I suggest learning to sharpen according to something I call the "burr method."  There's lots of sharpening information about a variety of different, and equally good techniques, but the burr method is the easiest for the beginner to see and feel the "metrics" of progress.  The best place to start learning is probably Chad Ward's FAQ on e-Gullet or his book, An Edge in the Kitchen.

 

I keep threatening to write a pamphlet, and it looks that will actually happen sometime in the very near future.

 

BDL

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post #4 of 41
1/21/12 at 7:58am
Thread Starter 

Thanks BDL. Your thoughts are appreciated, as you've heard before. 

 

Do you have a recommendation as to which Apex kit (or beginner stones) based on these knives?

 

And yes, I do realize tools get scratched - I just don't want to hurry it along. 

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post #5 of 41
1/21/12 at 9:25am

You're a Deputy DA?  I used to be one.

 

Kit 3 is good enough.  If you can work out how to get it across the border without exercising too much interest from Canadian Customs, you might be interested in the EP/Chosera kit from CKtG.

 

Speaking of CKtG... In the interests of disclosure, CKtG and I are discussing a commercial relationship.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 1/21/12 at 9:55am
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post #6 of 41
1/21/12 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 

Ah, I appreciate your "full disclosure." I've also developed a commercial relationship with CKTG in that I ordered all of those most recent knives from them, in the interests of commerce. :)

 

The Chosera kit is currently sold out but I think I might just start with Kit 3 and add a variety of stones later as things progress. I will check with CKTG to see about future stock of that kit (as I believe it may just be one stone missing).

 

Thanks again, very very much - your knowledge in this area is phenomenal (assuming you're not just completely full of shit and judging by the various threads here, you'd have been soundly discredited by now if that were the case). I, for one, greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and expertise on a variety of topics on these forums. The patience that you must painfully (on occasion at least) exert in order to answer the same questions that all of us without any knowledge or real understanding of the subject demand is amazing. I know from many years on many forums that "newbie" questions can be painfully repetitive; however, we all believe that our circumstances are somehow unique and deserve individual attention. The fact that you give that attention freely is straight class. I do, partially, blame you, though. Given that your posts often request specific information in order to give specific guidance (naturally, this is required), we all feel special! In all seriousness, the time you take to devote to individual inquiries is very much appreciated. 

 

 

I'm definitely not a Deputy DA (technically, we don't have DAs up here, but "Crown Counsel" - and I'm not one of those, either). It's a nickname from a trip t o Europe back in '03 where my tour guide kept calling me Deputy because I was always the go-to guy for an answer to questions that he didn't know. This was the net result of most of the tour participants being in the 18-23 year old range and I was of the grand age of 25 with a degree, work experience, and more than half a brain compared to the youthful and mind-numbing experience of the constantly drunk Australian teenagers that populated the majority of the bus. 

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post #7 of 41
1/26/12 at 12:48pm
Thread Starter 

Well, I manned up and ordered the Chosera three pack from Paul's Finest. $300 after tax and shipping takes me up to...oi...$870 on knives/related in a week. Long term investment, so I'm happy.

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post #8 of 41
1/26/12 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy View Post

Well, I manned up and ordered the Chosera three pack from Paul's Finest. $300 after tax and shipping takes me up to...oi...$870 on knives/related in a week. Long term investment, so I'm happy.

I am at a loss for words lmfao.

Welcome to the wonderful word of Japanese cutlery biggrin.gif

Seriously you made some great choices that you should really enjoy.
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post #9 of 41
1/26/12 at 11:55pm
Thread Starter 

Hah, yeah, I'm a bit nuts, Lenny. Trying VERY hard to resist buying the Moritaka 270 Suji from Paul. He highly recommends it as a top notch suji for the price.

 

http://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritaka-Deluxe-Sujihiki-Slicer-Carving-Knife-270mm-10.6-Aogami-Blue-2-Carbon-Steel.html

 

Not sure I want to deal with carbon (I know it's common sense and if I had it I'd probably just do it because I had to, but I'm not sure I want to).

 

Why, oh why, am I cursed with this addictive personality?

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post #10 of 41
1/27/12 at 7:48am
I have not seen anyone post it lately but this can be a bit addictive and a dangerous hobby for those who tend to be a bit compulsive lol.

I tried my best to resist buying anything expensive for a while, and talked myself out of that Hattori and the FH as well only to end up with a even more expensive Konosuke during a moment of weakness lmao

Still been able to resist higher priced stones so far, but the curiosity of them may end up pushing me over the edge eventually.

Guess you could justify the Moritaka based on how deep you in already, or wait a little so you can create a better opinion on what you like from spending some time with your current ones etc. I like and went this route and am glad I did since it lead me to the konosuke.
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post #11 of 41
1/27/12 at 10:04am
Thread Starter 

Yeah, I'm not in a rush, I don't use my slicer enough these days to warrant it just yet. I'd also be hard pressed to pick the Moritaka over the Hattori FH-13C (270 with cocobolo handle) from JCK because they're over the top gorgeous and a nice thin blade that I think I'd enjoy in a slicer. Regardless,no hurry!

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post #12 of 41
1/27/12 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy View Post

Yeah, I'm not in a rush, I don't use my slicer enough these days to warrant it just yet. I'd also be hard pressed to pick the Moritaka over the Hattori FH-13C (270 with cocobolo handle) from JCK because they're over the top gorgeous and a nice thin blade that I think I'd enjoy in a slicer. Regardless,no hurry!



I still find myself checking out various sujihiki and even comparing to a couple yanagiba etc as I think some kind of thin and short slicer may be in my future, but still a bit far enough that I will have time to figure it out (suji makes more sense but something about the chisel edge that just intrigues me).

 

Got to love the FH line, and the 240 FH and also the HD you have and the 270 suji your considering were all on my wish list (only the suji remains for now) not too long ago. I still may find my way to a FH suji someday as those are very nice looking, and seemingly well regarded performers by their owners.

 

Also if you like the FH series you have to take a look at the KH as they are thought to be works of art by many, but be forewarned they will literally eat your pocket as they are far from being affordable. Then again I have seen much more expensive stuff out there too so maybe they are a bargain to some :)

 

Since were on the Hattori subject I almost became the owner of a nice set of five (sm and lg petty, gyuto, suji, and santoku) that were on eBay last year but someone out bid me by a hair in the end. Was too bad though as the whole lot was just a little less than the gyuto and suji from JCK. Was complaining about that one for a week lol.

 

 

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post #13 of 41
1/27/12 at 11:01pm
Thread Starter 

That's a tough loss...damn snipers.

 

Do you mean the Hattori KD? I haven't seen a KH. JCK's website isn't exactly...nicely organized...so I might have missed it.

 

I'm definitely digging my HD, though...it's a beauty to operate in the kitchen, so far. I can't wait until it's REALLY sharp. 

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post #14 of 41
1/28/12 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy View Post

That's a tough loss...damn snipers.

 

Do you mean the Hattori KD? I haven't seen a KH. JCK's website isn't exactly...nicely organized...so I might have missed it.

 

I'm definitely digging my HD, though...it's a beauty to operate in the kitchen, so far. I can't wait until it's REALLY sharp. 



My bad on the KH as it is really FH oops :)

 

KD is just different to me as it seems to combine a more high tech core blade material with a more unusual damascus pattern and can be found here http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html

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post #15 of 41
1/29/12 at 6:10am

I don't think Hattori makes the KD anymore, nor that anyone's still using CowryX.  If Hattori does, they're probably still filling orders from four or five years ago.  And if anyone's still using CowrX, the alloy is VERY expensive and even more chip probe and otherwise problematic; stay away.

 

BDL

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post #16 of 41
1/29/12 at 10:45am
Thread Starter 

No worries there. I have financial priorities over $1400 knifes! lol.gif

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post #17 of 41
1/29/12 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

I don't think Hattori makes the KD anymore, nor that anyone's still using CowryX.  If Hattori does, they're probably still filling orders from four or five years ago.  And if anyone's still using CowrX, the alloy is VERY expensive and even more chip probe and otherwise problematic; stay away.

BDL

Apologies in advance to any too thin skinned etc. But your description reminded me of a high maintenance woman lol. Still beautiful even if a "little chippy " wink.gif

Seriously though I think its a shame if they dropped them if they actually did as it looked to be a very unusual, well made, and elegant product.

Do you have any idea of there are plans to update with a more appropriate core steel?
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post #18 of 41
1/29/12 at 5:26pm

"High maintenance but worth it," might not be inapt.

 

As far as I know the real issue is that what made them special was that each knife was hand made by Hattori-san himself -- or at least had a significant amount of his hand labor; and that for reasons of health and age he doesn't do that kind of work anymore -- or at least darn little of it.  Also "hand made by Hattori-san" doesn't mean he did the pattern welding.  I believe Hattori bought the pattern welded jigane ready made. 

 

I know three people who had KDs and all of them had issues with chipping, all loved their KDs and all moved them on regretfully to finance other knife projects.  To my mind the fact that they all three sold his is compelling.  That aside, the knives were certainly beautiful and excellent cutters.  Whether any knife is worth what a KD would cost now, as a tool, is arguable.  You can buy other knives as uber-zoot and just as beautiful as a KD if you have the desire and the credit.

 

BDL


Edited by boar_d_laze - 1/29/12 at 5:44pm
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post #19 of 41
1/30/12 at 9:34pm

I understand your points, and all make good sense.

 

What I really think made them just that little bit more special than some of the many other "knives as uber-zoot and just as beautiful as a KD"   was just like you said "each knife was hand made by Hattori-san himself".

 

Plus there is no way of knowing just how long that will even be possible though I wish for him to continue for a long time etc.

 


 

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post #20 of 41
2/2/12 at 12:44pm
Thread Starter 

What a great day! Naniwa Chosera stones (400, 1000, 5000) all showed up today. Have to get working on some old knives (as soon as I finish marking these stupid exams....) to see how things can go.

 

I wonder how sharp I can make a Farberware 5" santoku...

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post #21 of 41
2/2/12 at 8:02pm

LOL My wife refuses to let me throw out the last of our wedding-gifted Farberware knives (a small apring knife)! It could be the dullest knife ever, but she insists it's "fine." I still use the cheap block that used to house the set, but it, too, will be history with the arrival of my first (real) Japanese knife in a couple of weeks. While any good block nowadays has horizontal slots (as opposed to the vertical ones in cheap sets' blocks), I have my eyes on the Wüsthof under-cabinet block.

 

BOT: Nice stones, Deputy!

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post #22 of 41
2/2/12 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SameGuy View Post

LOL My wife refuses to let me throw out the last of our wedding-gifted Farberware knives (a small apring knife)! It could be the dullest knife ever, but she insists it's "fine." I still use the cheap block that used to house the set, but it, too, will be history with the arrival of my first (real) Japanese knife in a couple of weeks. While any good block nowadays has horizontal slots (as opposed to the vertical ones in cheap sets' blocks), I have my eyes on the Wüsthof under-cabinet block.

 

BOT: Nice stones, Deputy!



It is sort of funny that I never really got into knife blocks, and the only one or style that really ever caught my attention was the magnetic ones with the wood exterior. Too bad I do not have a place for these as they look like a very practical and handy way to store your knives.

 

Also the block that I have on the counter (which none of the better knives go in) was under $5 and does have the horizontal slots. It was a steal since it was like new (maybe even never used) and I picked it up at one of the odd shops I seem to be dragged into by the wife.

 

Not sure where the in drawer one came from as I have had it a long time, but it has been a great way to keep the better cutlery separated from the stuff you do not really care about. Still wish I had a good spot for one of the magnetic types.

 

Curious if anyone else has thoughts on or even does keep their different knives separated from each other, and if so what is the thinking behind it?

 

My thinking is to protect the knives as well as those who may use them.

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post #23 of 41
2/2/12 at 11:14pm
Thread Starter 

SG - That under-cab block looks pretty rad if you've got a good place for it (I don't, or it would have been a nice option). As to the Farberware, I bought her that little knife five years ago when I was just getting into cooking more in-depth and she loved it but it's SO dull now, it's not even funny. It'll be the first one I work on sharpening, I think. We'll see how it goes...it'll probably need the 400 grit...

 

Lenny - those magnetic/wooden blocks do look nice (you mean, this, right:)

7277.jpg

 

You're right though, the drawer block is where it's at. It just keeps the "good stuff" nicely out of sight, prevents exposure to nastiness (grease from the stove, etc), keeps my wife away from stuff she won't care for as carefully (she's not a big one for cooking and doesn't really think something is practical if it requires an over-strict care regime). I think it's like anything - you might have a crappy TV in the kid's playroom (if you were inclined to contribute to overpopulation) and a nice one in the living room. Keep the good stuff in good condition and the rest, let the work use 'em.

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post #24 of 41
2/3/12 at 7:27am

The drawer blocks are okay, but rest the knives on their edges.. which isn't ideal.  Just try and be careful when you put a knife in or take it out, not to push or draw it over the wood with any force. We use a drawer block for most of our knives; but keep the really good ones in sayas in a separate drawer.

 

BDL

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post #25 of 41
2/3/12 at 11:56am
Thread Starter 

Thanks BDL - I'll be gentle and may even get sayas for the good knives...just to be safe. And because they look cool...

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post #26 of 41
2/3/12 at 12:50pm

As you can probably guess I wasn't a big fan of the Hattori KDs.  I always considered them overpriced, but that's personal aesthetic more than anything else.  Anyway, when it comes to celebrity knife makers, Hattori-san isn't the only one; there's Doi and Shigefusa to name just two of many others.  On top of that, several of the top line, semi-custom makers' highest-end knives are every bit as much masterpieces as anything Hattori made; Tadatsuna's Best "Honyaki" is a good example. 

 

I'm not much of a guide on this subject.  Jon knows more, and can help you with this stuff a billion times better than me; if you're interested you should call him.  Phaedrus knows a lot more about it too; PM him.

 

Some people love the ultimate, Japanese-craftsman thing, and others -- like me -- are less impressed by it.  More, even if I could afford it without blinking I'd never pay that kind of money for a kitchen knife. I like my tools to be tools -- nice tools, yes; but objects which exist to change the forms of other objects and not as objects to revere.  Please don't take that opinion as a judgment on people who feel differently, it isn't. 

 

BDL

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post #27 of 41
2/3/12 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 

I dunno BDL, I think I want something a bit more exclusive than those knives you posted...they look a little too "common man" for my tastes... lol.gif

 

Seriously though, I don't see myself every buying a knife like that unless I win a really big jackpot. And even then...why would you?? That's just to show off and I don't care that much about that. I like my stuff (including my tools) to look decent, but I can be just as happy with something inexpensive, as long as it does a good job. It's similar to how I don't understand silliness like expensive women's designer handbags. Is it really doing a better job of carrying your money? In fact, I'd argue it's doing a worse job as it's ensuring that you have no money to carry!

 

 

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post #28 of 41
2/4/12 at 12:13am
Thread Starter 

Well, I skipped out on marking exams and hit the stones today with three knives...the old Farberware 5" santoku, my old "CHEF" brand 7" santoku, and my old 9" Charles Meniere chef's knife (in that order).

 

Some preliminary thoughts:

 

- keeping an angle, 85% of the time, isn't the hard part - I used the magic marker on the third knife and I seemed to have done a good job of removing it fairly quickly

 

- forming a burr on these particular knives seems to be difficult...either my technique/angles are worse than I think, or the steel stinks or I don't really know what I'm feeling as there was something there, but not much, and not always

 

- sharpening is messy'ish work - I can see why people like things like the sink bridges

 

They're all sharper than they were but none of them are very sharp. I didn't use the 400 with the 9" but did use it on the other two and I think it helped as they were both PRETTY dull. 

 

I have to do some sharpening reading but will get it figured out, I'm sure.

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post #29 of 41
2/4/12 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy View Post

SG - That under-cab block looks pretty rad if you've got a good place for it (I don't, or it would have been a nice option). As to the Farberware, I bought her that little knife five years ago when I was just getting into cooking more in-depth and she loved it but it's SO dull now, it's not even funny. It'll be the first one I work on sharpening, I think. We'll see how it goes...it'll probably need the 400 grit...

 

Lenny - those magnetic/wooden blocks do look nice (you mean, this, right:)

7277.jpg

 

You're right though, the drawer block is where it's at. It just keeps the "good stuff" nicely out of sight, prevents exposure to nastiness (grease from the stove, etc), keeps my wife away from stuff she won't care for as carefully (she's not a big one for cooking and ). I think it's like anything - you might have a crappy TV in the kid's playroom (if you were inclined to contribute to overpopulation) and a nice one in the living room. Keep the good stuff in good condition and the rest, let the work use 'em.


 

Actually I am kind of liking that design though it is the first I have seen it.

 

The one I was talking about is approx 2" x 12" strip that attaches to the wall or side of a cabinet etc.

 

Also I had a good laugh from "doesn't really think something is practical if it requires an over-strict care regime" as I do feel your pain :D

 

Not sure we want to get into my thoughts on TV's or even enough of them and various other electronic equipment to start a retail store lol. But I do agree with your logic unless of course there is a desire to spend another few thousand on additional bunch of imported third word junk :(

 

Judging by some friends, family, and associates there is just no limit to how many 40"+ flat screens one can have, but most also rate their success in life by the head count, and how much they waste every month on a lease payment for a vehicle they could otherwise never have afforded. Oh well enough on that for now lol.

 

 

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post #30 of 41
2/4/12 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boar_d_laze View Post

The drawer blocks are okay, but rest the knives on their edges.. which isn't ideal.  Just try and be careful when you put a knife in or take it out, not to push or draw it over the wood with any force. We use a drawer block for most of our knives; but keep the really good ones in sayas in a separate drawer.

 

BDL


I had actually though about adding a saya for my Konosuke, but decided against it based on extra cost that adds nothing to the performance of the knife, and also that I really never take them from the kitchen. I would most likely have said yes to the idea if I had traveled with my knives, but than also would have considered edge guards and roll too.

 

Please let me know if I am missing something in the following, but I am thinking that placing or even sliding your knife carefully into a drawer block that is made of a softer material (wood) than any cutting board I have ever used including my current edge grain board just is not a concern at all. If anything what I have noticed to be a down side is that when putting a thicker blade into a thinner slot etc the oils of the wood or stain used on it can transfer to the side of the blade causing a light stain. It is really not an issue for real since it is just an oil etc, but except for taking up space in a drawer (which can be more an issue to those with limited cabinet space etc) I really do not see any down side.

 

Actually a friend had pointed out an interesting observation about how, but though unlikely but possible just how dangerous a block full of knives could become during a home invasion. Never really thought about that before, but it is interesting to consider that in the odd chance you were to return home to find some addict or ? had broken in and is now six feet away from you, nervous to flee etc, and next to your knife block, well it could get ugly.

 

 

 

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