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Which stones or "system" for beginner to sharpen Hattori HD and Kagayaki VG-10? - Page 2

post #31 of 59

 

Quote:
Some people love the ultimate, Japanese-craftsman thing, and others -- like me -- are less impressed by it.  More, even if I could afford it without blinking I'd never pay that kind of money for a kitchen knife. I like my tools to be tools -- nice tools, yes; but objects which exist to change the forms of other objects and not as objects to revere.  Please don't take that opinion as a judgment on people who feel differently, it isn't.

I think this is part of why I (and likely many others as well) have found your posts and comments helpful.

 

It is really just a practical approach, and though I know appearance has a place in everyone's decision process for most it seems it is not topping the needs list.

 

I enjoy quality, obscurity, and uniqueness, and even nostalgia as well, and have enjoyed the many examples I have seen on the various forums etc, but I expect there to be no better chance of seeing a $6000 knife in my kitchen than an original Picasso on the wall in my living room :D

 

Beautiful yes, but practical?

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #32 of 59
Thread Starter 

It is sufficient to say that I suck at sharpening. I think my HD is duller. 

post #33 of 59
Be patient. Use the "burr method" described by Chad Ward in the e-Gullet FAQ. For your first few outings use the Magic Marker Trick.

If you're using new stones, they need to be lapped and beveled using. Quite a few new stones won't work at all without a preliminary lapping to loosen the surface. Beveling is also very important -- but for a different reason. Many stones are very weak at the edges and corners and will tend to break, crumble or gouge easily without preliminary beveling.

FWIW, beveling should be an every-time part of your flattening.

I forget if you're the one using DMT diamond stones or not. Be aware that they wear out quickly, and your new knife might have arrived one sharpening too late. The DMTs with the holes are much better for shorter blades than for kitchen knives; and other than for flattening other stones, and for fast, coarse work, diamond stones aren't the best choice for most sharpeners anyway.

BDL
post #34 of 59
Thread Starter 

Yes, I have to review An Edge in the Kitchen and the EG FAQ again.

 

I'm doing well with the marker, every time I use it, the mark disappears very quickly, so I feel like the angle is good. Maybe I'm just not going long enough to get the burr. 

 

Stones are in good shape - Choseras 400, 1000, 5000 (not DMT) - and are beveled. 

 

Just need to practice, I'm pretty sure of it. 

post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy View Post

Yes, I have to review An Edge in the Kitchen and the EG FAQ again.

 

I'm doing well with the marker, every time I use it, the mark disappears very quickly, so I feel like the angle is good. Maybe I'm just not going long enough to get the burr. 

 

Stones are in good shape - Choseras 400, 1000, 5000 (not DMT) - and are beveled. 

 

Just need to practice, I'm pretty sure of it. 

 

I do not remember my first attempts at sharpening too clearly as it was just too long ago, but I do know that I had my share of problems, reducing sharpness, and just not getting the results I had expected.

 

Then after getting my first couple waterstones it sort of was new all over again as they are very different than any of the old norton combo stones or wet dry sand paper I had used in the past.

 

Trust me on this, your not alone with finding a little frustration :)

 

Few questions, and thoughts.

 

Which stones are you using now?

 

I ask because you really want to be using the 1000 at first because the 400 is just too aggressive for what your doing, and the 5000 is just an open opportunity to mess up what you did on the 1000 until you really get your skills set etc. I am one of those who would have to mess with that 5000, and have messed up a good edge trying to polish it in the past lol. It is a learning curve etc.

 

Chasing the burr is a fine way to get to your desired result, but you have to be able to feel the burr properly, and across the entire length of the blade. I have to admit it was a lot easier finding the burr on my old knives as opposed to my J knives as it was larger and more obvious. So take your time, double check, check again, and oh be careful because a fine burr or wire can be extremely sharp too.

 

Are you sectioning the blade (sharpening one small part at a time that is similar in width to the stone) or sharpening the whole length at once in a sweeping motion? I believe sectioning is a better choice for new sharpeners as it allows one to have more control over the angle and like most things it also allows to make things a bit less complicated by breaking it down into small steps. I know both ways have their advantages, and I do use both myself too but sectioning just seems to make things easier at first.

 

A thought on that magic marker is to understand the idea is to show you what the relationship between the knifes edge angle and the one your holding when sharpening. If you are able to hold the same angle most all of the time then the amount of strokes before you check for what has been removed is not such a big deal, but if your not sure or are not holding it steady etc then try to make one forward and one reverse or draw stroke and then check it. This should give you a more accurate reading on just where and at what angle your removing the metal.

 

Also try to view some of the vids again as it should help to reinforce what you learned previously while also making more sense the more you learn etc.

 

And do not worry you will get the hang of it :)

 


 

 

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #36 of 59
I'll re-emphasize Lenny's point that you must check what you're doing really often. At the beginning REALLY often, magic marker or no. But know what you're looking for. You can remove all the magic marker with really inconsistent angles and lots of wobble if you just don't bother checking till it's gone!
post #37 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagstaff View Post

You can remove all the magic marker with really inconsistent angles and lots of wobble if you just don't bother checking till it's gone!


 

blushing.gif

 

That might have been an issue. I should give it another try this weekend. 

 

Thank you both for your thoughts - I'll definitely review and practice a bit more. I'm going to do some angle measuring as well - fairly simple with a protractor on hand. Just to make sure. 

post #38 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post

 

Which stones are you using now?

 

I ask because you really want to be using the 1000 at first because the 400 is just too aggressive for what your doing, and the 5000 is just an open opportunity to mess up what you did on the 1000 until you really get your skills set etc. I am one of those who would have to mess with that 5000, and have messed up a good edge trying to polish it in the past lol. It is a learning curve etc.

 

Are you sectioning the blade (sharpening one small part at a time that is similar in width to the stone) or sharpening the whole length at once in a sweeping motion? I believe sectioning is a better choice for new sharpeners as it allows one to have more control over the angle and like most things it also allows to make things a bit less complicated by breaking it down into small steps. I know both ways have their advantages, and I do use both myself too but sectioning just seems to make things easier at first.

 

 

 

I've used all of the stones on my junker knives (figured if I'm trying to get something sharp, might as well use the 400 and learn to use it there as they were pretty dull and surely needed some grinding) and only used the 1k/5k on the HD. No need for the 400 there yet, I don't think. I didn't think the 5000 would mess anything up but maybe I'm missing something...?

 

I've tried some sectional (on the HD for example) and some more "holistic" sharpening. I think I'm liking this method, though: http://youtu.be/Duwt8oMZRaA (if a bit overzealous for a home cook).

post #39 of 59
Thread Starter 

I've just realized that there's a Lee Valley about 5 minutes from my house. I checked the catalogue and they sell the DMT stones for what appears to be a very reasonable price (~$45). I might look at that in order to get a flattening stone (although, if I follow Murray Carter's advice, it's not as necessary as most seem to think...odd, a bit).

 

Looks like they also have a version of the Angle Cube (the Tilt Box II). Nice.


Edited by Deputy - 2/10/12 at 2:14am
post #40 of 59
If you're going to use a DMT dla-sharp flattening Stone, don't bother with anything other than than the 120#, 8X3 XXC which Lee Valley sells for $74. If you're thinking of a less aggressive plate, or something smaller, you might as well stick with drywall screen.

BDL
Edited by boar_d_laze - 2/10/12 at 8:21am
post #41 of 59
Thread Starter 

Saw that a bit later. Drywall it is. 

post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 

Well, I'm giving up on stones. I just don't have enough time to practice regularly to be "good" enough at it so I'm going with the Apex. 

 

Anyone want to buy some Choseras used only 3 times? 

 

I knew I should have gone with the gadget in the first place...

post #43 of 59

Sorry to hear you had problems with sharpening.  I'm just starting off myself, and I'm hoping I have time as well.  Which stones do you have?  Also, I may be wrong or you may be getting a different kit, but don't you still need the stones for the EP Pro kits?

post #44 of 59
hey deputy, shoot me a pm. =D

and if you can show me pictures of the stones that would be great.
post #45 of 59
Thread Starter 

gavination - honestly, sharpening's not "hard" and I believe that if I had time to do it more frequently, I could be good at it. I'm both extremely lazy and extremely busy so it's a bad combination for developing a skill. The EP, from what I understand, takes away a large part of that learning curve (which is helpful, as I'm also very impatient). It's definitely not rocket science and I'm sure you'll be able to do it. I just don't have time to do a crap job. I need to do the sharpening and have the blades come out better than I started. 

 

I have the Chosera 400, 1000, and 5000. The stones that I have are the full stones so wouldn't fit in the EP kit. 

post #46 of 59

That's good to hear!  Thanks for the encouragement!
 

post #47 of 59
Just a quick point on practice.

No doubt practice is an important part of becoming better at anything, BUT you need to be practicing proper techniques or actions etc.

Otherwise your only training your muscles, body and mind to do something that creates results you don't want.

It would be a whole lot easier to become s good or even decent sharpener if we had someone to show us the right way, and also give feedback on what may be going wrong.

If you can find someone local that could help im sure you would improve quickly.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #48 of 59

It was good fortune that you asked here before getting the Shun combi stone.  That one nearly killed waterstones for me.  Fortunately I have since found out that there are waterstones that don't gouge or wear like they were packed loam.

post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Alan View Post

It was good fortune that you asked here before getting the Shun combi stone.  That one nearly killed waterstones for me.  Fortunately I have since found out that there are waterstones that don't gouge or wear like they were packed loam.

If gouging is a problem then I can not think of a better stone than the Shapton glass stones.

Pretty much "gouge proof" wink.gif

That may save the stone, but if you want to get best results sharpening your still going to have learn and practice etc until your not gouging the stones anyway because most times if you are your also not holding a constant angle and not sharpening the complete edge.

I find what that happens it is mostly if not only the very end portion of the edge that is hitting the stone, and also is at a much more blunt angle than you want.

An added plus is that the glass stone has proven to be about the most "multi purpose " stone I own, and has sharpened everything from tools to pocket knives to Jknives etc.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #50 of 59

Lenny it wasn't so much gouging as sticking and skipping.  It was only a problem when trying to sharpen an 8" Randall Bowie knife, they're pretty awkward to sharpen.  Truth be told I was using a 6k grit for roughing because I didn't want to put deep scratches in the $600 Randall.  Those Shun stones are very soft though, I was able to flatten a .02 trough out in relatively few minutes using just the unpolished underside of countertop granite, they make a mess with all the mud they produce with just normal sharpening.  At the moment I am thinking of a 2K Shapton combined with the 8K Geshin BDL recomends, and maybe stick with my ao stone for roughing or get the Bestor/Beston 500K.

post #51 of 59

OK I think I know what your saying.

 

Still the glass stone continues to impress me for it's ability to work with various steels etc.

 

Mine is a 2K and though at times I have second guessed my choice it has proven to be my most used stone even if not exactly my favorite to use (I have found the 6K Arashiyama to just be a pleasure to use, and maybe it is also about the finer grit and being my finishing stone etc but it just seems to agree with me lol).

 

Also I look at hunting knives as a totally different animal, and even for those with improved steels it is just different for me at least.

 

I do not even put any hunting or util type blades on the 6K as I do not think it needed to go over the 2K and many 1K, but that's solely opinion and I can see where some would want to go even higher than 6K etc.

 

And come to think of it the few times I have managed to take a fine slice off the top of my 6K it has been completely user error due to being distracted in some way, and that's in no way the fault of anything else.

 

It doesn't flatten at the speed you describe but it is simple enough not to give much worry to either, and I think in a way it is the somewhat softer and finer surface of the stone that causes me to like it as it produces very nice feedback of what your doing, and on thinner blades will actually "sing" to you in a sort of odd way of telling it is happy with your efforts :)

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #52 of 59
Thread Starter 

Alright, once I figured out the Apex Edge Pro, things went swimmingly. At first I just kept concentrating on one side of the knife, waiting for a burr, but it wasn't working. Finally, I reviewed the manual again and noticed that you just keep switching sides until a burr shows...that made things go MUCH more quickly. 

 

Took me a long time (an hour?) to do my Moritaka but that was mostly due to my own lack of understanding of what I was doing. Once I got going, it flew and is now as sharp as it's ever been. Fun!

 

I'm going to start another thread about how the heck I'm supposed to figure out which stones to use. 

post #53 of 59
In my experience I have seen sushi chefs tape up the Damascus before sharpening so that don't scratch anything they don't have to.

I use saya's with all my knives, whether wood or plastic. It's not about performance it's about protecting the edge.

That magnetic knife block looks awesome! Only I never touch magnets with my knives as the marks from wood/magnet contact bugs me.
post #54 of 59
I like the Idea of taping up the blade.

I don't scratch things up as much as I may have but it is like insurance just in case.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

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post #55 of 59

Shapton Glass Stones:

 

500/2000/16000

post #56 of 59
Chepchadnyc

How do you. ike the 12k glass stone?

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #57 of 59

I used the 12k for a while but I have added on the 16k as my go to finisher.

 

I don't see a real difference (practical difference), for anyone other than a sushi chef, though.

 

A set of 500/2000/12k would work for most.

 

Anyway, I love these stones and suggest them to everyone at every skill level.

post #58 of 59
Is your 16k also a glass stone?

Do you notice any difference between them all besides the grit?

I ask because as much as I like my 2k glass stone due to its ease of use from not needing to soak etc it just doesn't feel smooth or even like my others do.

I'm going to be looking for a couple more stones soon and am really considering a glass stone for the lower grit (I really need something coarser for thinning and repairs than the 1k Arashiyama) but much as I want something faster etc I would prefer it to feel smoother and even too.

I'm not sure if I want to go the same direction on the higher grit, but my 2k had been so easy I would want to at least put one in the short list.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #59 of 59

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-GlassStone-16000-Grit-P221C84.aspx   

 

I think you can find it online for $10 less or so ($120)

 

I find that the shaptons work best when you use all of them together - as opposed to starting with a standard wetstone to start.

 

Just note that the larger the gap in grit (like a jump from 2000 - 16000) will typically mean more time on the higher grit - but in general anything I put on them gets laser sharp in 15-20  strokes (per side per centimeter)

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