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Using Sousvide Cookery

post #1 of 42
1/20/12 at 9:13am
Thread Starter 

Hi guys,

 

Everytime Sous vide comes up (or so it seems) people tend to get...uh, impassioned?  I thought I might start this thread for people who actually are using this (these) technique(s) to discuss its advantages, limitations, and any other experiential tid-bits you would like to share.

 

There are lots of misconceptions about sous vide like the canard that you can't overcook something, for example.  This a relatively new way approaching food and sometimes I think we can get hung up on trying to make it come off as an equivalent of more classical cooking methods (poaching, braising, what-have-you).  I believe it should be best utilized as its own thing, not as an attempt to simulate or "make easier" another process.

 

I have to dash off to work right now so I'll have to be brief.  I'll start off by throwing this one out there.

 

Sous vide my ideal way to prepare a rack of lamb.  It solves the the "problem" of lamb in that you can cook the meat to a beautiful rare while at the same time rendering out that beautiful fat cap into a soft pillow.  It removes the problem of the waxy fat that many dinners get hung up on (without having to trim it all off) and still serves the meat at what I think its best doneness.

 

I'll be back latter, please feel free to chime in with your thoughts.

 

--Al

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post #2 of 42
1/21/12 at 8:58pm
Thread Starter 

OK, no bites yet?

 

Alright, I'll throw this out.

 

Sous vide sucks at many kinds of game meats.

 

From what I  understand animals lumped under the game title suffer from sous vide preparations because of the higher levels of lactic acid in their muscle.  For the record I have never had rabbit sous vide that turned out well.  It tends to go mushy and "grainy" tasting, much like over marinated meat.  I was served vension tenderloin by a local "celebratey" (sic) chef that was rare and somehow chewy as mastic, at a gala event.  I called it as sous vide right away, and was born latter on in the night.  Yet some how this guy was boasting of the fact.

 

Anybody else noticed this?  Anybody have a workaround?

 

For the record, after destroying several rabbit saddles, I was realized I could exagerate this "super mush" effect and whip an awesome terrine.  Sometimes things are neither "good" or "bad" just not what you expected.

 

--Al

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post #3 of 42
1/22/12 at 3:31am

I meant to reply but tonite was one of the worst shifts I've ever faced in two plus decades in the kitchen.  A complete $hit show.  I just don't have the strength in me to make an articulate post.  Perhaps tomorrow.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #4 of 42
1/22/12 at 6:31am

I have been doing sous vide for a while. Yes, there is sous vide phobia out there.

 

 Sous vide is an unfortunate name. It is not "under pressure" it is not "in vaccum".

 

Sous vide is air-less cooking in an "water oven" with precision temperature control.

 

People expect to be an instant chef with sous vide. They will be very disappointed. There is no appliance that will make you a good cook.

 

To me cooking is not about taste. Follow a recipe closely, you food will always taste good.

 

To me cooking is all about texture control. An overcooked steak tastes the same as a steak expertly done, except the texture will be horrible.

 

Temperature determines texture, and sous vide gives you the ability to control texture predictably every time, whether you like your meat rare, medium rare or well-done.

 

 

If you have a $150 worth of rib roast, you don't want to be guessing how long to bake and long to rest the roast and end up with cold meat anyway at the end.

 

dcarch

 

 

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post #5 of 42
1/22/12 at 7:44am
Thread Starter 

Very true.  The name kind of implies a couple of things that aren't always true.  For most people sous vide instantly congers up images of vac bags bobbing in water.  Certainly the majority of sv applications are done in a sealed bag immersed in a low temp. water bath for an extended period of time.  However the twin process of bagging/sealing and low temp cooking can be separated and used apart from of each other.  I'll give some low temp cooking ideas that don't use "the bag" in this post.  Latter on I'll give some ideas for cooking using pressure, and the bag without using a low temp water bath.

 

Mason jars are my "water oven"s best friend.  I almost always have one or two sitting in there.  Its a great way to infuse oils, alcohol, salt, what have you. Cooking eggs SV is kind of the high water mark for this style of cooking in terms of a radically delicious difference in end product.  The control you have on the yolks' doneness can lead to more than just a super soft boiled egg.  Any time I need to make a sauce or base where I need a "just set" eggs (anglaise, hollandaise, whatever)  I now just jar the ingredients, give it a shake, and cook it at 64 C for however long it takes.  A couple of zips with a stick blender, done.  My recipe for hollandaise can actually be found on the Sousvide Supreme website, if you're interested.

 

Yolks don't get all the fun though.  Whisk a couple of whites into a stock, jar, and cook slightly higher (67 or so) and in a couple of hours you'll have a wicked consomme.  A couple of years ago I was all over gelatine clarification, now I don't bother.  

 

On another thread the problem of the vacuum warping the shape of forcemeats.  I've become a huge fan of packing farcies, meatlofs, terrines into ramekins, glass pyrex bowls or storage containers sealing the whole thing and cooking.  Forcing a hunk of pork belly into rectangular dish, sealing it and cooking for a couple of days gives you and awesome, shapely end product.  You get the effect of the pressed style braised belly without sacrificing the soft melt in your mouth one-two punch of fat and meat.

 

A fun dish I do sometimes is take chicken leg, bone out the thigh, stuff with whatever you feel like.  Press the thigh into a ramekin and bag the whole thing.  Cook, chill in the bag, and unmold.  You get a leg that presents on the plate like a sundial.  As  I say, fun.

 

For a dinner I did before last Christmas I did a potted bone marrow with the bread service.  Individual portions SV in those small jam jars.  Big hit.

 

Cooking whole dishes in sealed cocottes is now my go to way to making a couple of classics, fisherman's pie and steak and kidney pie.  Steak and kidney pie without chewy kidney, who'd have thought?

 

Enough for now,

 

--Al

 

 

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post #6 of 42
1/22/12 at 11:50am

Hey Al,

 

Great thread. I've never heard of using the egg whites in a mason jar for consume. Definitely looking forward to playing around with that trick. Also, at what temp are you infusing your oils? Do you use a different temperature for an herb oil that has chlorophyll to preserve the color, or is it pretty standard across the board?

 

As for me, I've had great results with anything custard based. Lately I've been using Ziploc bags instead of the chamber sealer when cooking my proteins because I find that the vacuum pressure as others have mentioned will slightly change the texture but also intensify flavors. Sometimes you want that intense herb flavor to become a part of the protein, other times it's necessary to keep it subtle.

 

Like you, one of my favorite things to cook sous vide is a rack of lamb. My lamb racks come vacuum packed from my meat purveyor so I just drop them into a 56C bath for one hour, just to do a pre-cook. At the end of the hour, I'll carefully cut open the bag (no shocking in ice), pour any juices into a separate container and then cool the lamb. The fat cap is seared using some infused roasted garlic oil. Using the rendered fat from the lamb, I make a basic pan sauce using shallots, onions, white wine for deglazing and a roasted chicken stock that has been reduced by about 2/3. The lamb "juice" is added to the pan sauce which is reduced until it reaches a slight nape consistency. The sauce is skimmed and strained.

 

The lamb rack is cut into four bone servings and placed in an individual Ziploc bag along with five cloves of roasted garlic, a small pinch of fried rosemary and a few batons of slab bacon. The bag is dipped into a water bath, a 4 oz ladle of the pan sauce is added, allowing the bag to drop under the water line, at which point the bag sealed. In my experience, if all the ingredients were chamber sealed together, the pressure would intensify the garlic and rosemary flavors, making them over bearing. I've also tried making the sauce with lamb stock, but it becomes too strong and one dimensional IMO. The lamb flavor infuses nicely into the chicken stock yielding, at least for my taste, a more balanced sauce.

 

For service we place a few of the bags in a 55C bath and let cook for at least 30 min to 1 hour, although the texture and flavor will become better up to 4 hours of cooking, giving us a wide window of time to sell the lamb. On pickup, the contents of the bag are poured into a hot sauce pan (minus the lamb) and reduced a la minute, finishing with a little swirl of butter. The exterior of the rack is re-crisped with a MAP gas torch.

 

RE Game Meats: I've had good luck with bone in Elk chops but that's about it. Given, the Elk was from a farm in New Zealand, not killed in the wild. But then again, most chefs aren't serving "true" wild game in their restaurants. When cooking rabbit I tend to go old school French with good results; never tried cooking it sous vide.

StellaCulinary.com

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post #7 of 42
1/22/12 at 1:00pm
Thread Starter 

Hi Jacob,

 

Generally I'm not to fussy with setting the green in oils.  More often than not I'll have a mix of leaf and stem and throw in other aromatics (star anise, pepper corn and the like) so i just strain rather than blitz.  Usually I go with leek tops if I want something green.  I generally go with between 60.5-64 C for these applications.

 

Your thinking with lamb is really close to my own.  A good argument for zipper seal bags on top of everything else is that the pressure that even my food saver puts out can be enough barely pierce the bag with the tip of the lamb bone.  Sucks to notice that after its been in water for an hour.

 

I'll cook my rack to rare  over about an hour and 15 min to 2 hours.  Usually I'll have it sealed with a herbed butter and a glob of demi.  I let the meat cool in the liquid to allow the gelatin to soak into the meat.  Before opening the bag I give it a quick dip to re-melt the juices, which get reduced with roasted tomato stock and shot more of stock.  My favourite way to finish the lamb is to cut into single bone chops, put a dollop of whipped goat cheese (with preserved lemon peel and roasted garlic) on one side.  These get wrapped in serrano ham and quickly marked on a hot grill.  

 

As for game, not all of it has given me trouble.  Softer "steak ready" cuts are the worst.  I had a bison strip that was a disaster but a long cook of leg meat from the same animal came out beautiful.  I actually do get my hands on moose, thanks to my brother in law, on a regular basis and this being a true wild animal has never given me any sous vide issues.  Weird.

 

Oh, as for egg whites, something you can do for fun.  Fill a jar with nothing but egg white and sv for a couple of hours at 67 c.  It clarifies itself.  The taste is really odd, kind of sticky, and pungent.  I'm not saying its good...but there may be something useful lurking in there someplace.

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post #8 of 42
1/22/12 at 1:49pm

That lamb dish sounds AWESOME!

 

Also, I'd hate to overlook a short rib cooked for 48 hours at 60C. I know a lot of people have different times and temp for sous vide "braising" but this one has given me the best results. The best part is you can serve a piece of braised meat that isn't well done. I keep a few orders of short ribs on line, which I de-bone and tie, in a 60C bath and on the pickup glaze with a little glace di viande. We sell so many short ribs though that we had to buy a second circulator. Hard to keep up on demand and the 48 hour cooking time occupies the circulator for two days.

 

I also like doing baby carrots vacuumed with a little butter and salt fro 40 minutes at 85F. This temp obviously works with any number of vegetables, but carrots have to be one of my favorites.

 

Looking forward to messing around with the egg white clarification. Also, that chicken thigh packed into a ramekin is a great idea; so many possibilities. And "potted bone marrow?" Brilliant!

StellaCulinary.com

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post #9 of 42
1/22/12 at 2:30pm

Rack of lamb, sous vide cooked, on wild rice.

 

dcarch

 

rackoflambb.jpg

 

Rackoflamb2x.jpg

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post #10 of 42
1/22/12 at 4:25pm

Nice presentation! What did you replace the bones with? From the photo is looks like some sort of flatware but I could be wrong.

StellaCulinary.com

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post #11 of 42
1/22/12 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 

Jacob,

 

Thanks for the kind words.  The marrow was from veal shin bones that I passed through a tamis  (if people get the idea I'm a total modernist, the tamis is my favourite kitchen tool).  I whip that up with shallots that I cooked in canola, hit with butter that I took to noisette and finished with a tiny bit of white miso.  Finished in the jam jars @ 64 c (for the record I didn't test it at other temps).

 

Totally agree with carrots.  Parsnips also are crazy done in the same way.  They almost take on dessert level of sweetness.  

 

dcarch,

 

That is a sexy plate.  I hope you know that I will steal those marrow picks eventually.  I am allergic to shell fish but I always have lobster forks in my cupboard so the Mrs.has easy access to the marrow from lamb shanks.

 

--Al

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post #12 of 42
1/23/12 at 12:44am

With sous vide, you're cooking in water that is the temperature you'd like your meat to end up, in this case 130 degrees. Nice post I have water in my mouth..

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post #13 of 42
1/23/12 at 5:31am

Thanks everyone.

 

Rack of lamb is very expensive, if you take away the fat and the bones, there is not a lot of meat.

 

Because of the shape, it is not easy to make perfect rack of lamb. Sous vide guarantees perfect end results.

 

On a formal dinning table, you don't want your guests fussing with greasy fingers with bones. The holders make it more elegant to enjoy this great cut of meat.

 

dcarch

 

And BTW, the green veggies are ramps.

 

Lamb with Ramp, get it? :-)

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post #14 of 42
1/23/12 at 6:04am
Thread Starter 

We've already brought up many examples of low temp cooking that doesn't involve high pressure vacuum sealing.  I find this pleasantly surprising. 

 

On the other hand, there are times I like to use a vacuum bag but use more conventional cooking methods with it.  Blanching greens in boiling water, sealed up with just salt and butter is great way to get a sharp popping fresh flavour.

 

Something I cam up with that works really well is the combination of vacuum sealed foods with a pressure cooker.  This came from me intending to cook a couple of lamb shanks sousvide to eat after I got home from work.  Good plan, expect I forgot to take the meat out of the fridge,  So after a 12 hour day I've got a couple of seasoned, sealed shanks and no time to cook them.  So, in a hail mary pass moment I just put the bags into my pressure cooker and blasted them for about 45 minutes.  Turned out to be fantastic.

 

I've refined this quite a bit and have a few little rules.  Always use a rack.  Do not quick release the pressure in the chamber (bag might pop).  

 

The difference between cooking the meat in the bag and in a broth/sauce in a pressure cooker is pronounced.  The bagged meat has a more intense, roasted quality in taste and the in the way the meat cuts.

 

This also works great for any hard root veg for purees and mouses.  Easilly my prefered way for "roasted" beets.

 

--Al

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post #15 of 42
1/23/12 at 10:17am

@ dcarch,

 

Could you go into a little more detail on the execution of the lamb rack? At what point are you removing the bone and replacing with the marrow picks? Are you re-therming the lamb with the marrow picks in place?

 

@ Allan,

 

It's funny how the term sous vide has become synonymous with using a circulator when really its a knod to cooking under vacuum. What makes it more ironic for me is I rarely chamber vacuum seal things that I cook in a circulator bath. But I love the chamber sealer for other things, mainly removing air from a product when beneficial. It makes melon look like little jewls which has a beautiful effect when suspended in a melon terrine.

 

In some applications I like using Xanthan Gum to thicken a sauce, especially when I don't want to apply heat, but the shearing force needed to hydrate  Xanthan will sometimes incorporate too much air, making the sauce look dull. The chamber sealer is a great way to quickly remove all the air which will brighten the sauce's color.

 

Obviously anything you freeze will benefit from being vacuum sealed first.

StellaCulinary.com

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post #16 of 42
1/23/12 at 11:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef_Jacob View Post


 

I also like doing baby carrots vacuumed with a little butter and salt fro 40 minutes at 85F. This temp obviously works with any number of vegetables, but carrots have to be one of my favorites.



Did you mean to type "85F" or did you mean 185F?  I've never heard of doing veggies that low.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #17 of 42
1/23/12 at 11:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMcPherson View Post

 

For a dinner I did before last Christmas I did a potted bone marrow with the bread service.  Individual portions SV in those small jam jars.  Big hit.


 

 



That sounds superb!  What temp did you use? 

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #18 of 42
1/23/12 at 11:56pm

Oops, my mistake. I normally do all circulating in Celsius and in this case, 85C = 185F. So I was thinking 85C but meant to type 185F. Thanks for the correction.

StellaCulinary.com

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post #19 of 42
1/23/12 at 11:57pm

I haven't cooked lamb sous vide yet myself but it was one of the first things I thought of when I bought my water oven.  Burgers are great cooked in a water oven, too.  I get skeeved out at the idea of eating commercially bought ground beef medium rare, but once it's been pasteurized in the WO it's fine.  Eggs are great cooked SV.

 

So far I'm not pleased with my results with custard...I'm not getting the texture I want.  I guess I'll need to experiment a bit more.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #20 of 42
1/24/12 at 2:46am

I cut a lot of fresh fish and in my experimenting found fish in vaceum kept on ICE in a 38 walkin is good for at least a week or more . On opening bags not even a strong aroma of any kind. Where un vac same fish on plastic on ice the quality started downward in 3 days. Sealer cost us 10,000. (its commercail very large floor model)  but saves us at least that. The low fat fish hold up better.

Chef EdB
Over 50 years in food service business 35 as Ex Chef. Specializing in Volume upscale Catering both on and off premise .(former Exec. Chef in the largest on premise caterer in US  with 17 Million Dollars per year annual volume). 
      Well versed in all facets of Continental Cuisine...
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post #21 of 42
1/24/12 at 3:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef_Jacob View Post

Oops, my mistake. I normally do all circulating in Celsius and in this case, 85C = 185F. So I was thinking 85C but meant to type 185F. Thanks for the correction.



Ah, as I thought.  I will say that a few months ago I prepared some turnips sous vide and they were, by far, the best I've ever tasted.  The technique brings out the essence of the turnip while giving a sublime texture, and all without the "radishy" off-flavor you sometimes get.  Just butter and S&P, sliced about 3/4" thick and cooked at 185 for about 50 minutes.

 

I'm still trying to get the hang of veggies SV.  My instinct is always that the suggested cooking times are far too long, but that's just years of cooking them @ 212 degrees!  It does take a bit longer at 185 but it's worth the wait.

 

To expand upon the topic, have any of you been cooking foods SV that have been bound with Activa RM/GS?

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #22 of 42
1/24/12 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef_Jacob View Post

@ dcarch,

 

Could you go into a little more detail on the execution of the lamb rack? At what point are you removing the bone and replacing with the marrow picks? Are you re-therming the lamb with the marrow picks in place?

 

 


After the rack of lamb was torched, the frenched bones were cut off with a shear and the picks were inserted, meanwhile, the plate was inside a low heat oven to keep very warm for the final plating. Sometimes for some meals, I would heat up a massive block of Himalayan salt block to keep the meat hot (but not overcooked) for the entire meal.

 

dcarch

 

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post #23 of 42
1/24/12 at 7:01am
Thread Starter 

Phaedrus,

 

I cooked the marrow at 64C.  Full discloser: I started them at 57c (hoping it would work like fois gras).  After an hour it wasn't setting up like I wanted (maybe do to the addition of the brown butter) so I jacked the temp and let it go another 30-40 min.  I suspect that if the marrow was left longer at 57 it would have come together.

 

I've never had the chance to play with meat glue.  The pack sizes are a little too large for my own personal use (from what I've read its shelf life isn't all that great) and I think that going through a kilo at a time would be beyond me.

 

As far as chemical cooking goes I usually have xantham gum kicking around.  I also am a big fan of methylcellulose.  I don't have the discipline for spherification.  Making the spheres is one thing, making them taste good and balancing the calcium with citric acid is quite another,  That said I've playing around with using Calcium chloride to set pectin gells in whole fruits and veg (inspired by the Ideas in Food guys).

 

 

 

 

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post #24 of 42
1/24/12 at 7:05am

Cool.  I have some marrow bones I was gonna roast, but maybe I'll try something else.

 

I understand, I don't need 1 kg of meat glue at home but Modernist Pantry sells small packets.  Very good service & products.

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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post #25 of 42
1/24/12 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMcPherson View Post


 

I've never had the chance to play with meat glue.  The pack sizes are a little too large for my own personal use (from what I've read its shelf life isn't all that great) and I think that going through a kilo at a time would be beyond me.


Its now sold in small packets (although at significant markup)  

http://www.modernistpantry.com/activa-rm-transglutaminase.html

 

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post #26 of 42
1/24/12 at 11:07am

@ dcarch,

 

Thanks for sharing. I love that concept, so clean.

 

@ Phaedrus,

 

I love Activa RM for making free formed sausages. What's cool is that both the Activa and Sodium Nitrite both reach their full potential when a temperature of 60C is achieved. This makes free form sausage making almost full proof, allowing you to fully focus on the flavors of the sausage. Here's my general formula: Total amount of sausage mix by weight plus 0.1% nitrite, 1% salt, 0.8% Activa RM. Disperse nitrite and Activa along with any other dry spices or seasoning into your salt. Add to sausage mix, form in plastic wrap and poach in 60C bath for 20-60 minutes depending on size.

 

The same concept can be used for any number of applications. I also use Activa to bind a free form trotter terrine that I hang for a month or two; always a big hit.

 

Another way to use transglutiminase is to mix it with water and form a slurry. The mixing needs to be done in a high power blender to insure that it is fully hydrated, but the air incorporated creates space between muscle fibers making it hard to get a good bond. Run it through a chamber cycle and you're good to go. You can now paint this slurry onto meat, effectively bonding them together. Some forms of Activa work better as a slurry then others.

 

Here's a pic of the free form trotter terrine held together with transglutiminase.

 

Free form trotter terrine held together using transglutiminase.

StellaCulinary.com

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post #27 of 42
1/25/12 at 6:33am
Thread Starter 

Dag-nab it.  Day off.  Credit card.  Meat glue here we go.

 

Don't mention this to the Mrs, ok?

 

--Al

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post #28 of 42
1/25/12 at 11:21am

You'll have fun playing with the meat glue, that's for sure. Harvard does a lecture series called "Science and Cooking" which is available through iTunes for free. Wylie Dufrense both last year and this year gave a great lecture on transglutiminase and how they're using it at WD-50. David Chang also gave an interesting talk, at one point sharing how they used transglutiminase and a specific curing process to make "pork bonito" originating for a pork tenderloin.

 

Re Egg White Clarification: Do you have a standard ratio for how much egg whites you add to the stock? Also, how long do you cook it for? I gave this a shot the other day, and I could see the clarification process start to occur but it wasn't allowed to finish because of time constraints. I filled a 12oz mason jar up to the first lip with chicken stock and then topped it off with egg whites. Placed sealed jar into a 67C bath for about 2 hours before I had to abandon the experiment since the circulator was needed for something else. Placed jars in fridge, gave them another shot the following day for 4 hours at 67C but nothing really happened. I'm guessing the chill down in between cooking screwed something up.

 

Also, once the stock is clarified, do you just open the jar and pour off the consume (I noticed the egg white settles to the bottom) or do you have a specific method for removing the consume?

StellaCulinary.com

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post #29 of 42
1/25/12 at 2:01pm
Thread Starter 

I'd say 4-6 hours ought to do it.  I often take it longer, as in overnight.  I suppose that 'pausing" the cooking may have affected the process, not sure how or why.  To decant I just use a 2oz ladle and spoon it out through a cheese cloth lined tamis.

 

For a standard sized jar I use 3 whites.  What got me started on this was toying with a egg drop soup, for the record.  Obviously make sure they start off well combined.

 

--Al

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post #30 of 42
1/25/12 at 2:05pm
Thread Starter 

Actually, I've got some leftover whites tonight, and time to mess around.  I'll knock off a batch just in case I'm forgetting something.

 

--Al

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