Looking for a Gyuto - an alternate to a Mac Pro? - Page 2

On yo- vs. wa- handles -- I haven't heard that one was inherently better, either.   I think generally the wa- will be lighter, and balance will be on the blade-heavy side. And the fit and finish is more reliable on Euro knives with Euro handles, but.... I don't think you need to worry about that AT ALL on something like the Gesshin Ginga, or maybe most of the others you're considering.  (That would be something to bring up with Jon when you talk).

On the handles your thoughts are similar to my own, well before finally getting a wa handled knife at least.

I am still not sure on smaller knives where you use or grip the handle more, but with a gyuto where I do use a pinch grip I have to report I am finding I prefer the wa handle.

There are a couple reasons and I really want to get more time withe the new knife before making a final decision, but I am finding I prefer the balance and lighter overall feel as it seems to compliment my cuts etc.

WAIT! STOP!

 

1. I think SameGuy knows this, but just in case: Masamoto Souhonten and Masamoto Tsukiji are utterly unrelated companies. So far as I can tell, they have never been related. Masamoto Tsukiji knives are supposed to be pretty decent, but they are not the justifiably lauded Masamoto knives -- those are Masamoto Souhonten.

 

2. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, Masamoto Souhonten has no brick-and-mortar shops. In fact, I do not believe they do retail at all. My understanding is that they sell all their products exclusively through independent retailers. So while you can visit up across from Asakusa, I was told by someone who lives in Asakusa itself that it's just a little office building, nothing to see. What I can't tell you, unfortunately, is where to find a brick-and-mortar retailer who sells Masamoto Souhonten, though there's got to be someone in Kappabashi.

 

3. Aritsugu Tsukiji is the one that does A-style, yes. It's famous for being a PITA to thin, profile, and sharpen, but for being disconcertingly indestructible once you've got it there. It is also remarkably inexpensive for what it is. In fact, Aritsugu Tsukiji is across the board inexpensive for what you get: one of the last actual deals in the business, it seems. They're supposed to be very nice if you drop by. But I am also told that Tsukiji in general is increasingly hostile to tourists, so if you can't pass for Japanese you will need to be as polite and out-of-the-way at all times as possible if you don't want to get the sense that people are basically mad at you. I don't know if that extends to Aritsugu.

 

4. There are some other knife shops in Tsukiji, worth checking out. You can find maps of the market online if you search around.

Hi Bob,
 

Although I'm the nut who actually uses an usuba for everything, I started with a Masamoto KS wa-gyuto and have recently bought my wife a Masamoto VG. I can't give comparative information, but I can comment on the knives themselves.

 

KS: It gets that love for a reason. You just have no idea. But it is very expensive -- shockingly so, really. It is the only carbon wa-gyuto that I think you should even consider seriously, because I think at base a carbon wa-gyuto is not what you want. But this thing is so brilliant that it ought to be in the mix. Balance, feel, pointing, all that are simply out of this world. And the steel not only takes an insane edge -- that's almost a given with these sorts of knives, but there are some experts who will swear that no gyuto gets as sharp as this one -- but it is almost frightening how quickly it takes that edge. It's simply the most fun thing to sharpen I've ever had. I have now bought a small KS deba because this steel is so great to lay on stones, and I have been thrilled. KS is wonderful! But in all likelihood it's not an ideal choice for you, based on what you say about yourself.

 

VG: I am very impressed. I know what BDL means in saying that it's whippy, but he's totally right that this is a complete nonissue for a home cook. It has a lovely profile, and I was quite pleased with fit-and-finish. It sharpens beautifully and quickly. It is not anything like as much fun to sharpen as the KS, nor does it take as good an edge easily, but it is certainly pleasant. If you're not a huge fan of sharpening all the time, this knife is a good choice because you won't spend a whole lot of time at it.

 

If you go Masamoto, bear in mind that they run long: add 5-10mm to the blade length. I was a little disconcerted that my KS 270mm came in at 283mm, which is pretty enormous. So don't be pushed to go up to 270 from 240 if you don't want that: a Masamoto 240 will probably be around 250mm.

No flaws visible.

 

BDL

Hi, I'm near here, and have been voraciously reading posts and trying to absorb as much of the incredible knowledge shared here as possible.  Great site!

 

I'm in a similar position to Bob, so I've come across this thread a few times.  A couple things I was wondering about:

 

1. How different is the blade on the Konosuke HD wa and yo handles?  Looks like the yo is a bit thicker, at least at the heel.  The weight difference is also significant:  136 g for wa, ~ 201 g (7.2 oz) for the yo.  Is all that weight difference in the handle, or also partly the blade?

 

2. I also (just) came across the "new shape" version at CKTG (wa handle only, I think):  "Konosuke HD Gyuto 240mm has a new and improved shape. This one has a larger flat spot on the edge which is ideal for general kitchen use and especially push cutting. This is one of our favorite blade shapes so we asked Konosuke to make them exclusively for CKTG. The 240mm Funayuki/gyuto has a 2 sided edge and comes with a stabilized octagonal handle ferrule. It's also easier to sharpen. Curiously similar shape to the Carter Funayukis."

 

I don't know how "new" this is, and I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on the new shape.

 

I'm personally more inclined to go with the yo handle myself, but thought these relate to the discussion at hand.

Blade thickness for the Konosuke wa and yo gyutos are so similar that you need to talk to someone who handles (and measures) a lot of blades to know whether or not the tang/handle style makes a differences or variation is typical of anything largely hand made and goes from individual.  In other words, call Mark or Jon.

 

Don't read too much into figures posted by individual owners on knife sites.

 

The difference in weight between yo and wa styles is entirely or almost entirely a function of the different tangs, handles and scales, rather than blade thickness.

 

If you think you'll be more comfortable with a yo handle than a wa, don't second guess yourself.  Enough gazillions of great meals have been prepped with yo handles that we can safely say it's pretty much a non factor as far as the grub is concerned.  For what it's worth, if you use a normal "pinch' grip, there's not much difference or transition.  As long as you keep your knife sharp, both styles are comfortable. 

 

I really like the old Konosuke wa, 1/2 octagon handles.  But I have large hands and a very forgiving and versatile grip.  Almost everyone else prefers the new, wider style.  I've never tried the Konosuke wa.

 

I've also never used a new style Konosuke, but have used plenty of drop-tip, flatter style gyutos.  As a general rule, flatter favors "push" over "rock" and to some extent the shape of the edge will determine the limits of how far you can impose an action without fighting the profile.  But the difference between the amount of belly and rocker in the new and old styles doesn't appear huge to me.  As long as there's some arc around the tip ("belly")  you can use a tip-down European style without fighting the blade; and the new Konosuke certainly looks as though it would work fine for anything which isn't too extreme. 

 

Is Kono influenced by Carter?  Probably not that much.  See one gyuto with a dropped tip, not much belly, and less than usual rocker along the length, and you have a pretty good idea of what the rest will look like, too.  Think of a "stretch santoku" and you get something very much like the same image.

 

The more your action favors push cutting, the more you NEED to keep a really sharp edge.  Light, flatter-profiled blades don't bring much in the way of power.  Similarly, yo handles are less conducive to a strong grip than wa. 

 

BDL

Edited by boar_d_laze - 1/30/12 at 12:14pm

Hi again.

 

Chris, thanks for the input! Yes, I was aware of the difference between Masa Tsukiji and Sohonten, though I guess I was less than clear in my post describing my itinerary. It is also my understanding that the two or three knife shops in Tsukiji are all house-brand OEM storefronts, though I may be mistaken. Perhaps they carry multiple brands?

 

From the Google Translate version of Sohonten's site, it looks like they might be a shop -- see the "Access" page, along with some other notes on the site that seem to urge you to shop there and avoid "imitations." EIther way, it's not all that far from the "head office" to Kappabashi-dori, so I even if they don't actually sell them at Azumabashi I'm sure they'll steer me to where I can get one with good service.

 

Depending how the day unfolds, I may trek back to Aritsugu to pick up a knife as well.

Bob it seems you have found your short list, and now things get interesting as you pick you final preferences based on differences that are not as large as the ones that shortened the long list. Some say its splitting hairs, but I am still on the fence etc.

Todd I have to reinforce most of what BDL wrote above, but also add some thoughts or changes from what I learned with my short time with the "new profile" and even shorter time with a yo handled one.

Now keep in mind that BDL has written many times that if you use a light pinch grip that the handle is pretty much inconsequential and though I was not sure at first I now fully agree, but also need to make note that in this particular knife there is a very different feel between the two. Since the Konosuke is my first real wa handled knife besides a bread knife that has a very different handle altogether I do not any others to compare with etc.

I also agree that the differences in actual measurements of the blade are negligible except for the length (my wa is about 7/16 shorter ) and the thickness just above the edge and I am sure like mentioned above this may be more to do with the exact ones I measured than normal differences between the two styles, and also agree there is not enough difference to cause the measurements to help make your decision.

My comparison is on the 240mm yo handle in corian and I will also point out I did not actually cut with it and only handled it briefly to get a feel for it and than take some measurements so I could compare to the wa handled one etc.

I know the normal yo handled ones show to be approximately 2oz lighter than the corian, and the wa another few less than the STD yo. Still I knew immediadely that the one I received first just did not feel right, made my same size Fujiwara yo feel like a feather, and just did not feel anything like I expected a laser to feel.

The blade looked great and for the most part like the wa one I replaced it with.

I also was concerned with the wa handle but was also intrigued by it as well. In the end I am so happy I made the change as the wa handle is great and makes the whole knife so much lighter and agile feeling. Still only you can decide what is best for you, and I am pretty sure you will be happy with either.
The change in the blade profile between STD and new is not earth shattering though I am finding the slightly flatter new design does compliment my cutting style more.

There are also other threads on this near the top of the list currently so be sure to check them out too.

Also the new style is nothing like any santoku I have owned, but I do also enjoy using the santoku I do have for certain things and it would not be a big deal if there was some comparable aspects etc. Just that I am not seeing them

Here is a pic of the konosuke and a Tojiro DP santoku for comparison.


Edited by LennyD - 1/30/12 at 8:57pm

After a visit of Asakusa-kannon and the Kaminarimon I'll head to Kappabashi. From what I can tell I should look for Union Commerce and Kamata for the Masamoto KS, and possibly at Tsubaya. I'll also check out the Tojiros at TDI and price the Naniwa stones at each place. I'm going to have to figure out how to pack stuff properly in a thin nylon bag that I keep rolled up in my napsack to use as a checked bag if I must (I usually travel carry-on-only), but I'm quite sure the shopkeepers will help me out by packing things well if I ask.

Sameguy that sounds like a great trip.

Be sure to share your experiences while traveling! If you can. Would ne great to follow

Thanks! Counting down the minutes... If my Superbowl squares pay out in the office pool, maybe more than one knife coming home with me. ;)

Congrats Bob - enjoy it!

LMAO!

 

I'm leaving for the airport in a little more than five hours. A bit too busy to watch, I just checked the final score. I won $400 in the office "squares" draw! I guess that settles that! I'm coming home with that 240mm KS if I can track it down!!!

Congratulations!

Well done SG. Fwiw, Paul at paulsfinest.com carries the Choseras (I just got mine from him) and he's local to you. Check the prices before you buy and hul them back from Japan. 

Just a quick post from Tokyo before I head for Haneda...

 

First, a couple of answers:

 

Yes, Masamoto-Souhonten has a store on Azumabashi, at 1-6-5. It is very nice, but the staff neither speak nor understand a word of English. And yes, Chris, the prices here are astronomical thanks to the inflated Yen value. FWIW, nobody here understood (or uses) the term "wa-gyuto".

 

I started out the day at 4:00 am, with a brisk walk in the deserted city while it was a bone-chillingly-damp 33°F. Thank FSM I packed my Patagonia long johns for the Tokyo part of my trip! About 20 minutes from my hotel I arrived at the Tsukiji market's information center. Believe it or not, even in February, there was already a line-up. I arrived just before 4:30 and was 16th in line; by 5:00 am it was sold-out for the day. After the auctions we were herded rather unceremoniously out of the area, at which time we were free to wander the Jogai (outer) market. I made a bee-line for Building 6 and the famous sushiyas. The Japanese guide books all rate Sushi Dai ichi-ban, and the Japanese will settle for nothing less than the best, so even at 6:00 am there was a line at least 90 minutes long. Daiwa was only slightly better, perhaps an hour. With the help of a Japanese-Americaan student visiting her family, Yamamoto Sushi was a strong recommendation. The student, her boyfriend and I were able to be seated right away! I ordered an omakase that turned out to be (forgive me if I don't know all the terms) eight nigiri, a bundle of six hosomaki, a slice of the tamago and a rather huge uni roll, plus a bowl of seafood broth with little shellfish in it (which I didn't touch). The sushi was fantastic, and by the time I was done there were about 30 people outside waiting for a spot on one of the 12 stools at the counter. It cost JPY 3500 -- a pretty incredible deal for that quality of sushi, considering just a mile or so away in Ginza it would easily cost three times as much!

 

I smacked my lips and went off to the knife shops. First I came across Aritsugu Tsukiji. They were friendly, but offered little English. The A-series blades are gorgeous, and the overall fit and finish of the knives is really nice. Next, Masamoto Tsukiji, both in Building 9 and the slightly larger shop just outside the market near Harumi-dori. In both places they were putting handles on blades and sharpening. The fish market is a busy place! I bought a T-shirt at a nearby stall and walked back to the hotel to pack and check out. Then I grabbed the Ginza Metro up to Asakusa and crossed the Sumida, just a short stroll to Masamoto-Souhonten's "head office."

 

At the Masa shop, they managed to tell me (with the use of a translator app on an iPhone) that the KS 3124 (240 mm gyouto) is back-ordered for at least a month. Its price is JPY 31,000 -- about $400. The 270 is available... at Y34,110 -- $450!!! I thanked them and headed to the Sensoji temple complex, only slightly crushed.

 

After the calming vibes of the temples -- despite the throngs -- I took a right turn and found Kappabashi-dori. Let me tell you something: a group of friendly Tokyo hipsters snickered at me in the Lion Beer Hall last night when I told them I was headed to Kappabashi for the day. Well, guess what: it is a fantastic tourist destination, even for those who are not foodies or into cooking. I didn't know where to look, there were so many fascinating things to see.

 

First I came across the TDI main shop, where they glady gave me instructions how to get to their knife shop. A bit further north, Union Commerce and Tsubaya are on a side street to the right (east). Both shops were so friendly and welcoming, and both had at least one family member with some English proficiency, that I almost felt like I would be betraying them if I were to leave without a knife! Again, no stock of the KS 240, but Union was able to let me handle and drool over the 270. The balance is absolutely perfect, it has a strange post-modern, utilitarian appeal in its simplicity and the F&F are nearly flawless. I did not expect the big 270 to feel so good and so lithe. They let me handle a couple of 240 blue kasumis from other brands and there was no comparison. Then they showed me the price of the 270... Y 24,000? That's what? $315? No saya included, but too good to pass up, so I now own a Masamoto-Souhonten KS 3127. I asked them to sharpen it for me, and the master showed that OOB he was cutting a sheet of newspaper six inches from his hand. I persisted just a bit and he went ahead and opened it for me on Kings: 3000 and 8000. he cleaned off the protective coat, buffed it up and applied some oil. An assistant packed it up very carefully and the older gentleman doing most of the translation brought me (and the master) a cup of coffee from their coffee place next door, and gave me an extra gift: an incredibly sharp folding pocket knife. I took a few pictures, gave them a paycheck and sauntered up the street grinning from ear to ear.

 

I stopped in at Kamaasa's beautiful boutique, and had a pleasant time trying to chat with a helpful young man at Kamata. Their prices were only slightly higher. Finally I checked out the Tojiros at TDI before heading back to the hotel to pick up my bags. And post this. :)

 

PS: a few pictures to follow when I get home.

Sounds like a great trip so far, and can't wait for the pics

Yep - sounds awesome! Really looking forward to the pics. 

This post is more related to earlier posts in the thread as it pertains to MAC graphics.  I have the MAC Pro santoku.  No, I didn't (and don't) love the graphics.  However, I will point out that it says "MAC Mighty" on only one side--the other side has primarily Japanese characters in black and red (and a very small "Made in Japan"), and looks a lot better.  I will also say in practice that I noticed the graphics a lot more when I first received it, and was admiring the new purchase.  Now when I'm cutting, it's pretty much a non-issue.  And I'm impressed enough with the performance that I hardly notice/think about the graphics that much now.

 

Overall, there are so many things going for MACS it seems like it would be a shame to discount it as an option because of the graphics.  OTOH, I can understand someone who thinks, "If I'm paying all this money for a knife, I better like the way it looks!"

Great to hear you like the HD.

 

In reference to the Shapton Glass stones please let us know what you think after getting some time on them.

 

In hind sight I may have done better than my original decision to go with the 2K GS (likely had a similar talk with Mark as you did lol) in as far as my progression of stones for my J knives is concerned as it is sort of stuck in the middle etc. but I still like it, and find the advantages of the GS in general to be good ones that I expect would transfer over to the two different grit ones you have. Also even though the 2K may not be a good fit for my progression it is a great stone for my western kitchen knives and various hunting and utility knives and am glad I did get it.

 

Not sure if this was an issue with yours, but I found that the 2K really needed a good flattening, and not really because it was dished or anything, but because it was some how like glazed over. Once it was flattened down real good it did work very well.

 

One thing you can not beat is the splash and go part. It is just so simple I have considered looking into a finer one just for fast touch ups etc.

 

Only real negative I have found needing any real mention is just that it does not have the feel or smoothness of some of the other stones I have used. I will admit I do not have anything else in the same grit, but the same surface that makes it splash and go easy also makes it feel hard and just different than the other water stones I have. For me it is more different than a problem, and is more similar to the old norton combo stone I had used forever, but seems to work more like a normal whetstone too.

 

Looking forward to your feedback.

 

 

I would have to admit that is pretty much what my thoughts were :)

 

It is also kind of funny because normally being attracted to value and the MAC offering a good level of it etc that "other" side of my brain must have really disliked that logo on the other side of the blade LMAO.

 

Maybe one day I will have to add one so I can finally be able to evaluate my decision.

Looking forward to more reports, Bob.

 

I think just for the sake of the learning curve I'll likely invest in the EP kit with Choseras in hte near future (it's back in stock at CKTG). The videos make it look like it's fairly quick to set up once you've done it a couple of times, and I don't want to make too much of a hobby out of getting a good edge and polish on my knives. OTOH, it will be a safe investment, knowing that the new Masa won't be my only real Japanese knife for very long. I don't think it'll bee too long before I take home one of the beautiful garasuki or honesuki I saw at every shop. Aritsugu's poultry knives looked very well made, and the Union boys showed me a couple but I've forgotten the brand names.

 

Incidentally, I tried pricing stones, too. iAy caramba! Kamata had only Naniwa Supers and Kings, with the 3000s starting around ¥4500 and the 10K at over ¥9000. Union has Supers, Kings and a few other brands, and a single Chosera 10K... for a whopping ¥11000! That's $140! The full-size stones are just a bit too heavy (and fragile) for the duffel bag I was using as checked luggage.

 

I also want to thank BdL, Chris and everyone else for their continued sharing of knowledge and experience. I'm sure my skill level would justify a nice wa-bocho at half the price I paid, but I see it a long-term purchase that I might include in my will.

 

 

Considering the Chosera 10K is about $265 from CKtG and $263 from Paul, it might not be a bad buy if you can still pick it up while you're there! Hell, grab me one while you're at it! 

Next time, I'm afraid. I got home this morning. But there will definitely be a next time, as I sampled only the tiniest bit of what Tokyo has to offer.